I'm In Tears -- Help!

[OtterPop]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Alma 29:8 tells us that God gives to each nation and individual the amount of truth and light the person is prepared to receive. Not everyone is ready, and perhaps never will be ready, for the fullness of the gospel. In this instance, why would God give a person a testimony of Joseph Smith, if the person isn't ready and willing to embrace it?

Better for him to give them what they need now, hoping they will someday be ready to receive more.

Why would God NOT give a testimony to somone who is wholly ready and willing to embrace it, and who desperately wants a witness of The Book of Mormon?

Moroni 10:3-5 gives a promise. Is God not bound by that promise?

[rameumptom]

God gives to each individual what they are ready for. Not all are ready for the fullness of the gospel. When the Israelites rejected the fullness of the gospel, and Moses destroyed the first plates, God took away the fullness from Israel and gave them the lesser law under the Aaronic priesthood (D&C 84).

So it is with all people as individuals, as well as nations. God is bound to the promise in Moroni 10:3-5, ONLY if we follow it completely. Many are not willing to read the Book of Mormon and ponder the blessings God has given mankind since Adam. Others are not willing to ask. Of those who ask, not all ask specifically concerning the Book of Mormon. Of those who do ask specifically, not all ask with faith or real intent. Some pretend to be ready, or may even think they are ready for the answer, but there may be some hidden sin or preoccupation they have not dealt with, which keeps them from gaining a witness. As I cannot judge what is in each individual's heart, all I can say is that if we do not receive a witness on something, it is because we are not prepared for the answer. And I have often not received a witness on portions of the gospel for the longest times, and as I reflect back I realize how unprepared I was for the answer and responsibility that comes with the answer.

[WANDERER]

Welllll...sometimes I think people have to work through their conflicts (or continue to be conflicted)...not with the person on the thread..but within themselves and how they do that within their interactions with another person probably depends on how much of a leap that they have to make to understand that person's perspective..if at all possible. Perhaps it's good to step back and realise that the conflict is more personal than interpersonal at times.

Sometimes these things are a little like the refiners fire....and sometimes you just get burnt and there is nothing refining at all about it...but perhaps it will open up the possibilities for being able to dialogue on a topic that is difficult to address and it is needed....and perhaps some of it is preparation for an answer that you/they will oneday receive or a better understanding of different viewpoints.

If people are willing to continue to talk through a conflict of views...there is still a willingness there...it just may not be possible and they may be rather optimistic........... and not realise the topic is better dropped. We've all been caught in situations like that on threads ; ) .

As for real intent...and those who cannot receive ...and those that are held back by whatever...I KEEP hearing that....and I'm wondering how positive a message this is and if it is not at times a self-fulfilling prophecy. Is this bean-counting at it's finest? Glass half empty or glass half full...? You know, I rather think I see a glass half-full all of the time. Real intent is clicking on this site...gaining membership and posting. I think that one should respect that...wherever they may be travelling in life...see the positives...not what you think is lacking...but the blessing...not the blessing that they don't have...but that which they can receive.

[candyprpl]

This is wonderful, you guys! You all are so smart:animatedlol:

It is good to share beliefs and I do appreciate the differences -- (like I said before) it hurts my heart that others don't want to accept the fullness of the gospel.

Carry on -- you all have inspiring words:)

Thanks again for this conversation.

[jimuk]

This is wonderful, you guys! You all are so smart:animatedlol:

It is good to share beliefs and I do appreciate the differences -- (like I said before) it hurts my heart that others don't want to accept the fullness of the gospel.

Carry on -- you all have inspiring words:)

Thanks again for this conversation.

candyprpl I understand that it makes your heart hurt so much, this should be a testimony to the good work you do here, you are truly a very spiritual person and its your spirit that is hurting to be heard, and it is being heard, by all those that will listen with sincerity in their hearts.

[candyprpl]

candyprpl I understand that it makes your heart hurt so much, this should be a testimony to the good work you do here, you are truly a very spiritual person and its your spirit that is hurting to be heard, and it is being heard, by all those that will listen with sincerity in their hearts.

That's wonderful thing for you to say -- thanks:)

I've gained a lot of perspective from participating in this forum. My patriarchal blessing said much the same thing that you said. I'm just trying to be a 'faithful daughter.'

[abqfriend]

Thank you for sharing. I am a Roman Catholic, but I encourage you in your faith journey as you understand it.

Sacred Scripture says this: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.–Matt. 18:20

-unfortunately-where two or three are gathered-there seems to not always be a total agreement on everything of one's faith tradition and how that faith tradition is lived out in every day life.

-do not become discouraged. Such is the case in my own faith journey.

Read, Study, Pray-and seek guidance in your faith journey.

-Carol

[OtterPop]

God is bound to the promise in Moroni 10:3-5, ONLY if we follow it completely. Many are not willing to read the Book of Mormon and ponder the blessings God has given mankind since Adam. Others are not willing to ask. Of those who ask, not all ask specifically concerning the Book of Mormon. Of those who do ask specifically, not all ask with faith or real intent. Some pretend to be ready, or may even think they are ready for the answer, but there may be some hidden sin or preoccupation they have not dealt with, which keeps them from gaining a witness. As I cannot judge what is in each individual's heart, all I can say is that if we do not receive a witness on something, it is because we are not prepared for the answer. And I have often not received a witness on portions of the gospel for the longest times, and as I reflect back I realize how unprepared I was for the answer and responsibility that comes with the answer.

Moroni 10 does not have an "out" clause. Its message is not complex, but elegantly simple. LDS prophets have preached that the Book of Mormon is its own witness. Missionaries continue to challenge investigators to read it and find the truth for themselves.

There are people who have asked, believing in Christ, with real intent who have not received a witness.

LDS people put great stock in their spiritual experiences. On this board I have seen people write again and again that real Truth and guidance is found only through spiritual means. I have also seen people write again and again that we cannot depend on the testimonies of others, but must gain a testimony for ourselves. Yet that is what those of us who have had our hearts broken by the absence of a witness are told to do. And if with that broken heart and a contrite spirit we are led to answers other than what we expected, answers that don't fit into the LDS mortal understanding of God and spirit, we are told that we have fallen short, have sinned and remained unrepentant, have indulged our pride, or that we simply are not "ready" for the witness we have been promised in the BoM and across the pulpit for our whole lives.

Candyprpl's pain at this dilemma is understandable, and I respect her for reflecting on these issues seriously.

People like me -- those who engaged with the Book of Mormon and its promise for years without receiving even a spiritual whisper in response -- are not supposed to exist. But I do exist. It took me 12 years to finally validate my experience of the Book of Mormon and to understand it.

I do exist. My spiritual experiences are real.

I have learned not to try to interpret others' experience of God and spirit or to try to force them to fit into my limited, earthbound, mortal, and natural understanding of God. It's a lesson I invite you to engage with yourselves.

Edited August 21, 2008 by OtterPop

[HiJolly]

I do exist. My spiritual experiences are real.

I have learned not to try to interpret others' experience of God and spirit or to try to force them to fit into my limited, earthbound, mortal, and natural understanding of God. It's a lesson I invite you to engage with yourselves.

I agree. Communication and understanding only comes when we accept that the other party is sincere.

And though my experience was the same as yours RE: the Book of Mormon, yet long ago Heavenly Father made sure I knew He exists, in a significant way. With that beginning I eventually came to perceive many small, tiny witnesses of the BoM truths. Now I believe it is true to the extent that I can say "I know" it's true and sincerely mean it.

HiJolly

[candyprpl]

OttorPop and HiJolly -- thanks for sharing. I could tell the heartfelt message in your posts.

I know your spiritual experiences are real too. I had many before I joined the Church and they weren't any less real than the ones I have now.

[fannyfran]

Feeling upset with how the bible can be misinterpreted so many ways by so many different people is what led Joseph Smith to the grove to ask of God. That's powerful to me because I went through the same thing.

I studied the bible extensively but using mainstream doctrines, I was left confused. After reading the Book of Mormon, everything became very clear. I've learned that the confusion comes from Satan and he wants us to be confused about the real meaning. Thankfully, we have prophets today who can help us know what the Lord meant.

[from Satan and he wants us to be confused about the real meaning]. Amen to this I agree with what you said it is Satan he would be so happy to be able to win our souls and lead us away from the truth that's what Satan and all his follwers are tring to do and the closer we get to our Heavenly Father that's when Satan will work harder to win our soul because he wants to win!! when I first became a member of the L.D.S. faith my Bishop was teaching a Sunday school class and he made a statement about Satan tempting us and I replied '' OH Satan could never win my soul after me learning the truth of the teachings of the L.D.S. faith'' my Bishops reply to my stupid comment was: '' Don't you ever say that!!! because when you are the closes to God that's when Satan will work harder to bring you down ''so don't ever say that'' Well of course at that time in my life I didn't believe my Bishop I thought he was being very ugly to me saying something such as that. ''OH MY"" sad to say but my Bishop was correct by that statement years latter Satan took over my life and brought me waaaaaaaaaay down and almost won my soul ,but Jesus and our Lord God saved me and picked me up from the ground and clean me up and brought me back into their forgiving and loving arms back into the fold. And I had some very special spiritually things that God aloud me to see and hear and this was all showed to me by God before Satan brought me down. So believe me when I say ''never'' think Satan can't pull you away from what God has let you see as the true teaching of his word.

I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be Gods true teachings and that Joseph Smith was a true profit and the Book of Mormon is true and I love the faith with all my heart and soul I say theses things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen

[brother01]

I would love ALL comments to my dillema.

We even find in the gospel accounts of the Bible that when Jesus taught there arose divisions amongst the people over what He taught. That these things happen today should not be surprising. It comes down to what we do with Jesus, and not everyone does the same thing. Even going to the Epistles of Jesus we find that those who thought they were doing well were not and those who thought they weren't doing well were - not in every case, but a significant number of them. (The Epistles of Jesus being the 'letters to the seven Churches' found in the Revelation of Jesus Christ)

Some good advise/perspective from an old pastor really stuck with me. He said that the closer each of us gets to the Lord Jesus that the closer we will be to each other. That is perhaps the best advice I've ever had. So perhaps it just proves the need for each of us to continue to grow closer to Him in thought, deed and life - that our service to Him as Lord is the best we can offer and that it is base upon doing what He said.

[candyprpl]

[from Satan and he wants us to be confused about the real meaning]. Amen to this I agree with what you said it is Satan he would be so happy to be able to win our souls and lead us away from the truth that's what Satan and all his follwers are tring to do and the closer we get to our Heavenly Father that's when Satan will work harder to win our soul because he wants to win!! when I first became a member of the L.D.S. faith my Bishop was teaching a Sunday school class and he made a statement about Satan tempting us and I replied '' OH Satan could never win my soul after me learning the truth of the teachings of the L.D.S. faith'' my Bishops reply to my stupid comment was: '' Don't you ever say that!!! because when you are the closes to God that's when Satan will work harder to bring you down ''so don't ever say that'' Well of course at that time in my life I didn't believe my Bishop I thought he was being very ugly to me saying something such as that. ''OH MY"" sad to say but my Bishop was correct by that statement years latter Satan took over my life and brought me waaaaaaaaaay down and almost won my soul ,but Jesus and our Lord God saved me and picked me up from the ground and clean me up and brought me back into their forgiving and loving arms back into the fold. And I had some very special spiritually things that God aloud me to see and hear and this was all showed to me by God before Satan brought me down. So believe me when I say ''never'' think Satan can't pull you away from what God has let you see as the true teaching of his word.

I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be Gods true teachings and that Joseph Smith was a true profit and the Book of Mormon is true and I love the faith with all my heart and soul I say theses things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen

I'm so glad you were able to come back. Yes, Satan has led me away many times as well. I've seen his cunning ways since joining the Church. Satan does find new ways to tempt me, like, the questions that I've come up with because of some of the things I've read here on these threads. But, I keep going back to how Jesus/the Spirit led me to this church in the first place, giving me a strong witness that His gospel was being taught here and that sets my mind at ease and chases Satan away.

Thanks for sharing.:)

[candyprpl]

We even find in the gospel accounts of the Bible that when Jesus taught there arose divisions amongst the people over what He taught. That these things happen today should not be surprising. It comes down to what we do with Jesus, and not everyone does the same thing. Even going to the Epistles of Jesus we find that those who thought they were doing well were not and those who thought they weren't doing well were - not in every case, but a significant number of them. (The Epistles of Jesus being the 'letters to the seven Churches' found in the Revelation of Jesus Christ)

Some good advise/perspective from an old pastor really stuck with me. He said that the closer each of us gets to the Lord Jesus that the closer we will be to each other. That is perhaps the best advice I've ever had. So perhaps it just proves the need for each of us to continue to grow closer to Him in thought, deed and life - that our service to Him as Lord is the best we can offer and that it is base upon doing what He said.

You're so right! And I think I keep forgetting that it happened in Jesus' time as well.

I like what your pastor said -- I totally agree with that. Oh, if only......huh!

[Guest bren1975]

Candy, your thread is growing so you've apparently touched others.

I've found as I've conversed with gentle, respectful people of other faiths, I've come to understand the true gospel more. I'm learning more about my religion as I've learned about theirs.

For example: We talk about the importance of families and wanting to be with our families forever. This is a righteous desire. However, many Christians focus less on their families in the eternal sense because eternal families are not in their doctrine, and they focus more on Christ. Some of them think we put our families above Christ. I realized that they were right. We should strive to be obedient to God simply to please him, rather than for a reward. Once we achieve that, then we truly become the "pure in heart". All the blessings will come, but they shouldn't be our reason for righteousness. I learned this from a non-LDS.

Another example: Many mainstream Christians are very suspicious of personal revelation (meaning "feelings") and believe all answers come from the Bible. We LDS, sometimes tend to be lazy and want all our answers to come via a "feeling" or "voice". We sometimes neglect to search for our answers in the scriptures. Non-LDS sometimes go too far in one direction, and we LDS sometimes go too far in the other direction. Often the truth lies in the middle. One of the classic examples is with grace and works. Many Christians lean totally on grace, and we tend to think our works will save us. The answer is in the middle.

There is beauty and truth to be found in most every religion and we all can learn from each other, if we will just listen respectfully.

Edited August 25, 2008 by bren1975

[candyprpl]

There is beauty and truth to be found in most every religion and we all can learn from each other, if we will just listen respectfully.

Exactly! I so agree. That is why it's hard for me to say or hear said -- that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church. I understand what we mean when we say it, and I believe our meaning of that statement. However, that meaning doesn't come across to other faiths and that disturbs me.

[Guest ceeboo]

It really hurts my heart to read so many posts that end in arguments.

Does God really want us all to belong to one church? I'm serious.

For me the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the right church for me. I believe the things I'm being taught. I know that this church is being led by a true prophet of God and that is the church that I want to be a part of. I know that others don't think we respect the Bible as much as they do (maybe I'm saying that wrong, but that's how it comes across to me). One of the reasons that I stopped attending church all together was because I couldn't find anyone who agreed with what the right interpretation of the Bible was. Even pastors in the same denominations seem to disagree at times. I've always been one to see both sides of an argument and I think that is what has me so upset now. When I hear someone else explain their view on passages in the Bible -- I understand what they're saying. When I hear our church leaders explain a passage, I also understand what they mean. How can veiws be so different?

I would love ALL comments to my dillema.

Hi Candyprpl,

First, thanks for sharing such a sincere and touching post :). That ( posts like yours ) is exactly what has made me go from " temporary visitor here " to a " senior member " LOL:)

( I love the sharing and contributing of all under this Christian umbrella ):)

A Catholic perspective if I may- I believe ( ALL WHO ACCEPT JESUS AS SAVIOR AND TRY TO LIVE AS HE TAUGHT) are indeed followers of the Lord and will certainly be smiled upon from heaven.

The " arguments " you suggest ( for me ) come from a very difficult pill to swallow, as I am sure the pill I would offer you would likewise be rather difficult for you.

As a Catholic, the LDS claim of restoration and thus " only true Church " and all that it brings to the table would not be a mutually rewarding one for either side of that table.

However, I do believe that as we are all created by God and we seem to agree on the ultimate sacrifice made by Jesus, out of his love for us all, to atone and never leave us without " the spirit". THIS SHOULD AND CAN, IMHO, ALLOW FOR US ALL TO BE RESPECTFULL OF EACHOTHER AS WELL AS OFFER EACHOTHER GREAT SUPPORT AS WELL AS HUMBLING DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE LIFE, TEACHINGS AND TREMENDOUS LOVE JESUS CHRIST.

:):)

Gos bless, thanks for sharing the OP with us all :):)

Carl

[Guest tomk]

Exactly! I so agree. That is why it's hard for me to say or hear said -- that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church. I understand what we mean when we say it, and I believe our meaning of that statement. However, that meaning doesn't come across to other faiths and that disturbs me.

What is at stake here?

Isn't it our eternal welfare?

Not everyone wants to live the life God lives. But many people do. Mortality is how this is all sorted-out. We are all placed here where good and evil pull at us with equal fervor. We are enticed by one or the other, right? And we choose.

Satan wants to destroy the agency of man. The power to choose.

This was such a divisive subject, apparently, that a full 1/3 of the "hosts of heaven" were expelled from the presence of the Father!

Can we even dare think that such an action was done lightly? If Father had had ANY OTHER recourse ... I am sure He would have pursued that rather than lose association, forever, with a 1/3 of His children. They made their choice and accepted the consequences in FULL LIGHT AND KNOWLEDGE of what it would mean. And they continue in their efforts to destroy us.

Because of this temptation...not everyone will choose the right. God is not a God of confusion. He has put forth His truth. It resides in its fullness in ONE Church only. Each year, thousands of converts find their way into the Church!

People have their agency. We can expect the same conditions down here as existe in the Pre existence. Choice. Everyone has choice.

Satan is the "god" of counterfeits. He has a philosophy to cater to every whim of the carnal man. That is why you see 1000 different churches.

We have our feelings. We can follow them.

No person who genuinely follows what they feel to be right will suffer for that. It is between God and that person.

We can be sure of a fair judgement. A merciful judgement.

[HiJolly]

A Catholic perspective if I may- I believe ( ALL WHO ACCEPT JESUS AS SAVIOR AND TRY TO LIVE AS HE TAUGHT) are indeed followers of the Lord and will certainly be smiled upon from heaven.

That is also a Book of Mormon perspective!

HiJolly

[Guest ceeboo]

That is also a Book of Mormon perspective!

HiJolly

Hello Hijolly,

Great !!!!!!!

See, we don't need to argue, we have ALOT of commonality with Jesus :):)

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

There are ways to discuss....and even argue ones position effectively without contention. Contention always drives the spirit away and is not of God.

I am not threatened in the least by any other Christian doctrine. I may not agree....but threatened??? Tough pill to swallow?? Why on earth would I need to feel that? I want to know what others believe and why they believe it. I want to grow from alternate perspectives, even if I don't adopt them as my own. And I don't mind a healthy contest of ideas as long as love and respect prevail.

I struggle too, with the contentious threads. I don't go them anymore.....which is sad....because sometimes the subject matter is interesting.

I do know that this is the only true church on the earth. It is a bold statement. I don't expect anything less from the Savior of this world and from the Father of us all. I am not afraid of such a statement nor do I think this statement that should be feared. Why wouldn't Jesus lead a church and help that church along with revelation? Why wouldn't he reveal himself to chosen prophets in every dispensation and time from the beginning of this world until he comes again at the end of it? These are logical to me. It is a light to be shone ...not something to be hid under a bushel. But in the same breath.....let all men go in peace and worship as they may. And I pray that they can do so in peace without threat or offense in their hearts because we believe as we do.

[candyprpl]

I do understand the eternal perspective and certainly have respect for those you choose not to have it all. It's hard for me to listen to people say that they like there life the way it is. They were raised this way, why change, etc. I once felt all this way myself. It's embarrassing to acknowledge how little scripture I know, but I am trying my best to understand what our Heavenly Father wants for all of us.

Ceeboo -- I've read quite a few of your posts and sometimes (honestly) I get frustrated with you. I'm not so sure that what you would bring to the table I would find offensive as long as it was presented in a non-sarcastic manner. I know the Catholic church states itself to be the 'one true church' and I've read the scriptures that support that. That's my problem exactly -- I don't interpret those scriptures the same way -- my dilemma.

Misshalfway -- I'm not threatened by other people's church doctrine. I hope that is not what you got from my thread starter statement. It's what God wants for all of us and how he wants us to interpret His word that has me concerned. I've never felt so secure in my beliefs than I do now. I do know that I have found the true church. I just feel uncomfortable saying that to others because I don't think you can get anywhere in a discussion that starts off sounding contentious. Please, don't think, that I think, that's what you're saying, I'm not. I've read enough of your posts to know that you don't like contentious banter either. Is there another way to discuss church doctrine (of any faith) without getting upset? I'm just basically agreeing with you -- just sharing some thoughts when I read your post.

Thanks again everyone -- you have all helped me immensly.

[HiJolly]

D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

I always say it is the "true and living church". "Living" to me means guided by continuing revelation. Not just the prophet, apostles and GAs, but bishops, primary teachers, etc. Living revelation.

HiJolly

[candyprpl]

D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

I always say it is the "true and living church". "Living" to me means guided by continuing revelation. Not just the prophet, apostles and GAs, but bishops, primary teachers, etc. Living revelation.

HiJolly

:twothumbsup:That's great!

How do you respond to people who don't think we need continuing revelation? I always thought that the Bible was the only Word of God we needed. But like Misshalfway, what I'm learning now, 'just makes sense.'

[Misshalfway]

Oh.....Candy,

My threatened remark was sparked by another poster....not you. So I don't think that is your point of view at all.

I don't know how you respond to folks who don't agree with continuing revelation.....perhaps it is a person by person sort of discussion. Maybe we just tell them how awesome it is and what it is like to experience it. And then invite them to discuss it and understand it and perhaps learn more about it. I think we stop right fighting and we look for ways to listen and ways to empathize, which imho, are where you are the strongest, Candy. :)

And I actually think that your experience with the biblical interpretations being so different even amongst the pasters of one group is really telling. I think that shows the levels of confusion about the bible and the will of God that exist today throughout Christianity. Something...I don't think the Lord wanted at all. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Misshalfway