Suffering For Sin

[butsam]

I struggle all of the time with people who have the notion that Christ suffered for sin only (and completely) in Gethsemane.

I am curious as to how people could have this position, especially in light of all of the LDS scripture and doctrine to the contrary.

I hope by reading this post, you can learn about this glorious part of Christ's life for which we are all in debt, according to true LDS doctrine, not cultural LDS fallacy, that the Spirit may testify to you of this event. I will post a small sample of scripture, mostly from the Book of Mormon in order to show that the Book of Mormon even shows that the suffering for sin was also endured in the scourging and on the Cross.

We begin with some symbolism first:

Helaman 8

14 Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come.

15 And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal.

Because Christ was lifted up on the cross, we too can inherit eternal life. All that is required is faith and a contrite spirit.

D&C 76

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness

"May his sufferings and death rest in your mind forever" (LDS Index, "Jesus Christ, Death of")

Moroni 9

25 My son, be faithful in Christ; and may not the things which I have written grieve thee, to weigh thee down unto death; but may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever.

3 Nephi 27 (from Christ Himself)

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works

Mosiah 15

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father

3 Nephi 6

20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

Anyone else care to boldly testify of His death and sufferings? I am glad we testify of Christ risen, and we do a good job of that in church. Christ the Lord is alive today, an important message. But it is also important to know that He died for our sins..."Our sins nailed Him to the Cross" is not just a mainstream-Christian phrase, it is LDS theology as well. We seem to skim over the death and sufferings, with the exception of the suffering in Gethsemane.

Alma 21

9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

Alma 22

14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king

Mosiah 14/Isaiah 53 entire thing; here is a small subset to whet your whistle:

4 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Alma 30

26 And ye also say that Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the sins of the world—

(in this verse, "ye" = Alma, "I" = Korihor) Interestingly, Korihor taught the crucifixion was not part of the sacrifice for sin. Perhaps Satan is trying to sneak in a small portion of Korihor doctrine in very subtlely by making it common to teach that the crucifixion was not part of the sacrifice for sin.

A small (very small) sample of people who had visions of His death and suffering:

Nephi

1 Nephi 11

33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

Jacob

Jacob 1

8 Wherefore, we would to God that we could persuade all men anot to rebel against God, to provoke him to anger, but that all men would believe in Christ, and view his death, and suffer his cross and bear the shame of the world; wherefore, I, Jacob, take it upon me to fulfil the commandment of my brother Nephi

(Perhaps even Nephi commanded it to be so!)

Enoch

Moses 7

55 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men;

For those who are endowed...think Melchizedek Priesthood (men and women alike) in relation to the Crucifixion and Temple symbolism...I will not be more specific of course because it deals with the Temple.

And finally, if you still are not convinced, let's again go back to the Master Himself:

3 Nephi 11

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

I hope this has enlightened you to true LDS theology in regards to Christ's suffering for sin; let's stop the myth floating around that Christ's suffering for sin did not include the scourging or the crucifixion. That simply is not true. From Gethsemane to His death, Christ suffered for our sins. There are countless Bible scriptures that support this, but I have chosen to stick with the uniquely LDS scripture so I can show you it is not merely symbolic or a mistranslation. I bear you these things in the name of Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, Amen.

Sam

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by butsam@Aug 30 2004, 01:23 AM

I struggle all of the time with people who have the notion that Christ suffered for sin only (and completely) in Gethsemane.

Why do you "struggle all the time" with the personal beliefs of others? I agree with your interpretation of this doctrine, but why does it bother you that others may not? Keep in mind the 11th article of faith:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

There is a lot of freedom in letting others reach their own conclusions.

[Jenda]

There are really people who believe that Christ only suffered in Gethsemane? I mean, I know the suffering there was great, but I believe He suffered from the time he left his father's throne and took His place as a human.

The hymn I use as my signature says it all for me.

I gave My life for thee, My precious blood I shed,

That thou might ransomed be, and raised up from the dead

I gave My life for thee, what hast thou given for Me?

My Father’s house of light, My glory circled throne

I left for earthly night, for wanderings sad and lone;

I left it all for thee, hast thou left aught for Me?

I spent long years for thee in weariness and woe

That an eternity of joy thou mightest know.

I spent long years for thee; hast thou spent one for me?

[butsam]

Yes there really are. I have heard quite frequently that Gethsemane = suffering for sin, and the cross was only necessary to kill Jesus so He could be resurrected. Such a scriptorally-incorrect doctrine needs to be corrected.

OK, maybe "struggle" was the wrong word...I get frustrated.

Sam

[Outshined]

Well, it certainly isn't LDS doctrine.

[Blessed]

I believe that Christ's struggle began while in the desert for 40 days.

[Guest jackvance88]

he had it so easy.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Aug 30 2004, 08:40 PM

There are really people who believe that Christ only suffered in Gethsemane? I mean, I know the suffering there was great, but I believe He suffered from the time he left his father's throne and took His place as a human.

I agree. I believe that His whole life was completely void of an ego and given as a total sacrifice for everyone else. I think many people probably believe that too if they really think about it. I have heard LDS people talk about the actual "atonement" as taking place in the Garden and not the cross, but they are just trying to make sense of something that is very difficult to understand. I'm not sure it's really important to understand every detail of it. I think all believers probably interpret it in whatever way gives them a basic belief and appreciation of the mysterious event.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Aug 31 2004, 12:53 PM

he had it so easy.

praytell HOW did Christ have it "easy"?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Outshined@Aug 31 2004, 03:59 AM

Well, it certainly isn't LDS doctrine.

Outshined, can you elaborate? What exactly is NOT LDS doctrine (regarding this thread)?

M.

[Outshined]

Certainly, sorry about that. It is not LDS doctrine that the crucifixion was just a means of death, and not part of the atonement. It certainly was part of the atonement, and we recognize that.

For example, D. & C. 76:40-42 tells us: "And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us — That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him."

Bruce R. McConkie said in "Mormon Doctrine" :

Because of its association with our Lord, the cross has come to have symbolic meanings for those who profess belief in his atoning blood. Paul properly used the cross of Christ to identify to the mind the whole doctrine of the atonement, reconciliation, and redemption. (1 Cor. 1:17-18; Gal. 6:12-14; Eph. 2: 8-21; Philip. 2:5-9; 3:18; Col. 1:20; 2:14; Heb. 12:2.)

He also said:

Few if any forms of execution are or could be more painful and agonizing than that of crucifixion — a form of taking life in which the condemned person has his hands and feet nailed or bound to a cross of execution, after which he is left to suffer inexpressible pain and torture until the spirit finally leaves the mangled and broken body. When crucified persons were nailed rather than bound to the cross, the nails ordinarily were driven through the feet and wrists (or both hands and wrists) so that the weight of the body could be sustained. Our Lord was, of course, nailed rather than tied to the cross. (Isa. 22:21-25.)Crucifixion was the form of death chosen from the beginning for Christ, that in his death, having descended below all things, he might in his resurrection ascend above all things. (D. & C. 88:6; 122:8; Eph. 4:9-10.) Long before his earthly ministry, holy prophets foresaw his crucifixion on the cross. (Moses 7: 55; 1 Ne. 19:10-13; 2 Ne. 6:9; 10:3-5; 25:13; Mosiah 3:9; 15:7.)After his resurrection our Lord showed his disciples in Jerusalem and the host of Nephite Saints on this continent the nail marks in his hands and in his feet. (Luke 24:36-43; 3 Ne. 11:14-19.) At the Second Coming these same wounds will stand as a witness to the Jews that he is the Crucified One, their King whom they rejected in the meridian of time. (D. & C. 45:51-52; Zech. 12: 10; 13:6.)

We do not overlook it or relegate it to some secondary importance in the Atonement of Christ.

[Lindy]

I think it is interesting that you have overlooked the word sufferings Sam....the "s" is plural which means more than one.

Examples:

Alma 21

9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

And now for the New Testament:

2 Cor. 1: 5

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Philip. 3: 10

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

1 Pet. 1: 11

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Pet. 4: 13

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Just a few of the scriptures I found with the word "sufferings.

I would agree with Curvette when she says

  trying to make sense of something that is very difficult to understand. I'm not sure it's really important to understand every detail of it. I think all believers probably interpret it in whatever way gives them a basic belief and appreciation of the mysterious event.

There are many who thrill in trying to breakdown the core belief of the LDS faith, by attacking the little things that should make no difference at all. What difference should it make if we believe that Christ suffered for our sins in Gethsemane, as well as suffering for them on the cross?

Very hard to imagine the paparazzi and the media chasing Christ around to give an exclusive on where and when the exact mode of suffering took place. We have to go by our faith and our own belief in what took place.

It should be enough (I would think) that we, as a core group of Christians, believe that He suffered, He bled and died. (taken from a sacrement hymn).

I still think that Christians should stand together as brothers (and sisters) in this world. Hand in hand, Catholics, LDS, RLDS, Methodists, Adventists, Lutherans, Evangelistics, Baptists, etc......and not worry about the little differences in beliefs.

In closing this post, I would like to quote 1 Pet. 4: 16 which says: "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

[butsam]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Sep 1 2004, 11:29 AM

I think it is interesting that you have overlooked the word sufferings Sam....the "s" is plural which means more than one.

Examples:

Alma 21

9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

And now for the New Testament:

2 Cor. 1: 5

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Philip. 3: 10

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

1 Pet. 1: 11

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Pet. 4: 13

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Just a few of the scriptures I found with the word "sufferings.

I would agree with Curvette when she says

  trying to make sense of something that is very difficult to understand. I'm not sure it's really important to understand every detail of it. I think all believers probably interpret it in whatever way gives them a basic belief and appreciation of the mysterious event.

There are many who thrill in trying to breakdown the core belief of the LDS faith, by attacking the little things that should make no difference at all. What difference should it make if we believe that Christ suffered for our sins in Gethsemane, as well as suffering for them on the cross?

Very hard to imagine the paparazzi and the media chasing Christ around to give an exclusive on where and when the exact mode of suffering took place. We have to go by our faith and our own belief in what took place.

It should be enough (I would think) that we, as a core group of Christians, believe that He suffered, He bled and died. (taken from a sacrement hymn).

I still think that Christians should stand together as brothers (and sisters) in this world. Hand in hand, Catholics, LDS, RLDS, Methodists, Adventists, Lutherans, Evangelistics, Baptists, etc......and not worry about the little differences in beliefs.

In closing this post, I would like to quote 1 Pet. 4: 16 which says: "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

Thank you for the judgment. You obviously know me so well....

I do notice "sufferingS", and that includes Gethsemane. I also notice "cross", "crucifixion", and "death".

What part of what I posted was tearing down LDS faith, pray tell? I believe strongly in the Book of Mormon, which is why I posted a concerned message. If you think that declaring the crucifixion as central to the sacrifice for sin is tearing down LDS faith, then you are gravely mistaken. I'm an active LDS member, but I'm not an "all is well in Zion" member...I'm sorry if you wanted an "all is well in Zion" board...if that is the case, I will leave now.

Sam

[Maureen]

Originally posted by butsam@Sep 1 2004, 02:39 PM

Thank you for the judgment. You obviously know me so well....

I do notice "sufferingS", and that includes Gethsemane. I also notice "cross", "crucifixion", and "death".

What part of what I posted was tearing down LDS faith, pray tell? I believe strongly in the Book of Mormon, which is why I posted a concerned message. If you think that declaring the crucifixion as central to the sacrifice for sin is tearing down LDS faith, then you are gravely mistaken. I'm an active LDS member, but I'm not an "all is well in Zion" member...I'm sorry if you wanted an "all is well in Zion" board...if that is the case, I will leave now.

Sam

There are many who thrill in trying to breakdown the core belief of the LDS faith, by attacking the little things that should make no difference at all.

Hey butsam - I'm assuming you are referring to the above quote by lindy. I'm not sure but I don't believe she was reading your specific post as breaking down core beliefs of the LDS faith. I think lindy was speaking in general. I'm sure she'll let you know. Even though you may find some posters here that don't agree with you, it doesn' t mean you should leave. You've got to learn to grow a thicker skin.

M.

[Guest GOD'S ARMY]

I will begin by defending the people who might say that Jesus Christ suffered fully for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane. I don't personally believe that way on the matter, but then I don't think that it much matters that I understand when the first drop of blood was shed or whether he carried the cross to atone for my sins or if that portion of the Atonement had been completed. In discussions with other Christians I have been told that the Garden of Gethsemane was a preperation for the cross. We, as LDS, do not accept that. We know that he suffered for our sins there and that is the difference. Many may have taken that to mean that the atoning for sin only took place in the garden, but I know we agree that our Savior died on the cross in the completing act of the Atomnement. Jesus Christ suffered and died for the sins of the world and I think that anyone who fails to recognize the significance of the cross and our Lord's death there are mistaken and do not fully understand the Atonement.

I also wanted to address the issue of the garden from the prespective that it was in preparation for the cross. I do not believe that our Lord and Savior asked that the cup be passed from him in preparation for the cross, but in despair as he suffered for the sinful nature he never personally knew.

[Lindy]

Sam,Sam,Sam.....

I'm an active LDS member, but I'm not an "all is well in Zion" member...I'm sorry if you wanted an "all is well in Zion" board...if that is the case, I will leave now.

I could laugh, but you would take it all wrong.....I think that anyone on this board would understand if I did laugh.....they should all know that I am not an "all is well in Zion" member myself.....and I cringe to think of an "all is well in Zion" board...... :)

And thanks Maureen.....you have it covered in your post

I think lindy was speaking in general.

Yes, I was....generally speaking.

Oh, and Sam....glad that you let us know that you are an active LDS there "butsam".... as for judgement....I don't know you from Adam, how could I judge you? Maybe one day I'll let you know what I was reeeallllly thinking inside.

Welcome to the board....give us a chance to agree, disagree, or make you laugh....OK?

[butsam]

That is fine, lindy; I will give the chance. I seriously did not know if this was an "all is well in Zion" board, there are some like that on the Internet where I made the mistake of posting anything that wasn't current cultural LDS and was chased out like a wild banshee.

A few more questions with respect to the topic: If Gethsemane is so central, why so little scripture (even in the Book of Mormon) about it then? I do not doubt Gethsemane was part of the sacrifice, don't get me wrong here. But if it is the focus, though, then why is it that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Nephi, Jacob, Alma, Moroni, and even Christ Himself do not bring it out to be central? I can think of Christ declaring one scripture about the Gethsemane sacrifice, but several about the Cross.

Also, in order for scripture to be complete Christ had to be completely forsaken. Did this happen in Gethsemane? Not to my knowledge. In fact, I recall a scripture about an angel coming to strengthen Christ while in Gethsemane. It wasn't until on the cross that Jesus felt truly forsaken, when He exclaimed, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" So for the sacrifice for sin to be complete, the cross is necessary, and not just because it was what brought about His death.

The claim of uniqueness is one I often hear. It is not backed up by scripture, though. The sacrifice was valid because Christ was sinless. Let me give an example, based on Elder Packer's famous debt/debtor allegory. When Christ steps in to pay the debt, the uniqueness side of the house claims He should have to pay in, say, cows, rather than money; after all, then it would be a unique payment of the debt. That just doesn't make sense for justice to demand a unique payment. Of course, it was unique in that it paid the price for all sin, don't take this wrong. But the method of payment did not have to be unique, it just had to be complete. Gethsemane, the Cross, and all of the events in between make it complete.

In fact, D&C 19 and elsewhere tend to refute the idea of uniqueness: If they would not repent, then they must suffer, even as I... (So others will go through the suffering). It is Christ's sinless nature that saves, not uniqueness. "Knowest thou the condescention of God?" He was brought to the lowest depth of humanity.

Sam