some questions as i investigate the church

[shadowhunter]

hi everyone i am currenlty reading the Book of Mormon and investigating the church and ive got some questions. let me preface this by saying im not trying to be rude or anything and i rly am seeking truth.

1. Are Satan and Jesus brothers?

2. What is meant by becoming gods

3. Are there any belifies or teachings that are withheld intill a person becomes a member of the church.

[Rico]

1) Growing up in Protestant faiths, I was taught that all members are brothers and sisters, just like Christ. The LDS church is the same, but instead of just including church members, we include everyone. Every person, every man, woman and child, is a child of Heavenly Father. If we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father, just like Jesus is, then wouldn't it be assumed that Satan is as well?

2)If we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father then think for a moment what we are capable of becoming.

3) It's hard to even comprehend calculus when all you know is basic arithmetic, but as your knowledge about math increases, you can begin to comprehend calculus even more. Don't you think that as your level of understanding increases, you are able to understand more? The Restored Gospel is taught to you by the Missionaries and as you learn more in the church you understand the restored Gospel in ways that are even more glorious.

[shadowhunter]

Thanks for your responses rico it makes alot more sense now then it did 5 minutes ago. i have another question tho how many gods do mormons belive there are because coming from catholism i find it hard to understand there being more then one and ive heard that mormons belive in more then one but i could be wrong but if im not could u please explain how that would reconcile with ishaili(sp) where the Lord says "before me no god was made and after me no god was made"... thanks!

[HiJolly]

Thanks for your responses rico it makes alot more sense now then it did 5 minutes ago. i have another question tho how many gods do mormons belive there are because coming from catholism i find it hard to understand there being more then one and ive heard that mormons belive in more then one but i could be wrong but if im not could u please explain how that would reconcile with ishaili(sp) where the Lord says "before me no god was made and after me no god was made"... thanks!

Rico did a nice job. Learning and understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a life-long journey, because it's not about learning 'facts' or gaining knowledge, although these are good, but it is about how we live, love and serve others. As we do these things, not only do we begin to understand the scriptures more fully, but the mysteries of the Kingdom are revealed to us via the Holy Ghost.

No God was EVER made, as I understand it. Our Heavenly Father exists from all eternity to all eternity and will forever be our God. He has with Him two other Gods who are Christ and the Holy Ghost. These are our 'God' for all time and for all eternity. If there are other Gods (and logic tells us there must be, even if it is in (?) (other universes?) (who knows?) -- then we know nothing about them, it is not revealed in the scriptures, and thus we don't really deal with that. If it is true, then maybe someday we'll have that revealed to us.

But for this earth life, and for all eternity, we have only One God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Hope that helps.

HiJolly

[shadowhunter]

hi jolly thanks for ur explaniton clearing up about God being God from all time bc i heard somewhere that mormons belived that God was once a man like us and thats something i couldnt really understand. Now for another question how can the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be separte but still be one God? sry if my questions are offending anyone i dont mean to

[bmy-]

hi everyone i am currenlty reading the Book of Mormon and investigating the church and ive got some questions. let me preface this by saying im not trying to be rude or anything and i rly am seeking truth.

1. Are Satan and Jesus brothers?

2. What is meant by becoming gods

3. Are there any belifies or teachings that are withheld intill a person becomes a member of the church.

1. Yes.

2. We'll become 'like' our Father in Heaven. Glorified, perfected, exalted.. and we'll be given stewardship over our family and potentially 'our' creations. It's a natural process.. alot like growing up and becoming 'a man'.

3. Yes. At least in my experience.. things like the oath/covenant of the priesthood. The plurality of Gods (I knew in advance, but I was never told). None of it was a big deal for me. But to each their own.

Rico covered it better than I did. I'm just reiterating. Shadow -- this churches doctrine is built on 'eternal progression'. It's fascinating and as a new convert.. I can say that it had the ring of truth before I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now.. I firmly believe it's the meaning for our existence.

hi jolly thanks for ur explaniton clearing up about God being God from all time bc i heard somewhere that mormons belived that God was once a man like us and thats something i couldnt really understand. Now for another question how can the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be separte but still be one God? sry if my questions are offending anyone i dont mean to

They are 3 distinct beings. 3 distinct personalies. They are 'One' in both function and purpose. It's usually called the 'Godhead'.

Also -- on the 'man to God' issue -- here's an excerpt from the King Follet Discourse (it's Smiths most well known sermon).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another."

Edited September 1, 2008 by bmy-

[shadowhunter]

what is meant by "eternal progression"

[bmy-]

what is meant by "eternal progression"

"… What is [man]? He had his being in the eternal worlds; he existed before he came here. He is not only the son of man, but he is the son of God also. He is a God in embryo, and possesses within him a spark of that eternal flame which was struck from the blaze of God’s eternal fire in the eternal world, and is placed here upon the earth that he may possess true intelligence, true light, true knowledge,—that he may know himself—that he may know God—that he may know something about what he was before he came here—that he may know something about what he is destined to enjoy in the eternal worlds."

LDS.org The Origin and Destiny of Mankind

I suppose you could say.. it's eternal life.

Edited September 1, 2008 by bmy-

[shadowhunter]

see i dont really have too much a problem wit God having a physcial body because God can do whatever he wants and take any form he wishes as long as the LDS church teaches that he was God from all time i can accept it because who am i to limit God

[HiJolly]

hi jolly thanks for ur explaniton clearing up about God being God from all time bc i heard somewhere that mormons belived that God was once a man like us and thats something i couldnt really understand.

Yeah, me too. It has been taught in the Church in the past, but since it's not in the scriptures we don't really teach it. Its more of a logical extension of our beliefs, than it is a scripture-based doctrine.

It basically comes from a revelation received by then-prophet of the Church Lorenzo Snow:

As man is now, God once was; As God is now, man may become

We do accept is as a revelation to President Snow, but we do not accept it as doctrine or binding on the Saints. However, if a Saint feels it is true, it is very easy to overstate the case and for that Saint to start teaching it as doctrine. They shouldn't do that, but it does happen.

Now for another question how can the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be separte but still be one God? sry if my questions are offending anyone i dont mean to

The trinity is a puzzle. Often the way it is explained in the Church is that they are three separate and distinct individuals (Gods) who are one in purpose and mind.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

what is meant by "eternal progression"

It is basically that we learn and grow and repent more and more until we are, thanks to the Grace of God and the Atonement of Christ, able to receive the blessings of God and become joint-heirs of all that the Father has, with Jesus Christ who led the way.

HiJolly

[shadowhunter]

im just wondering is the belife of exhation or eternal progersion the same as the catholic and orthodox belife of theois... and thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

[HiJolly]

Also -- on the 'man to God' issue -- here's an excerpt from the King Follet Discourse (it's Smiths most well known sermon).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another."

I LOVE the King Follett discourse. It's definitely not scripture, though.

And we can discuss what it means for one to be "as we are now"--- consider that in the Garden of Eden God said "he is become as one of us, knowing good and evil". Mormons have pretty much assumed that this quote from the King Follett sermon is clearly meaning that God lived on a planet as we do. I'm not convinced that this is the proper meaning of what Joseph Smith was saying.

HiJolly

[shadowhunter]

That's one of my problems with the LDS chruch i cant understand how God could have lived on a planet like us but then again i also said the same thing about alot of mormon belifes so i may come around lol

[HiJolly]

That's one of my problems with the LDS chruch i cant understand how God could have lived on a planet like us but then again i also said the same thing about alot of mormon belifes so i may come around lol

Well, I'm not saying it ever happened. The church does not really teach it, either. We all kinda roll our eyes when (or if) someone says it in church.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

im just wondering is the belife of exhation or eternal progersion the same as the catholic and orthodox belife of theois... and thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my questions

We LDS like to say how similar the beliefs are, but then the Catholics and Greek Orthodox are quick to say they are not the same at all.

HiJolly

[shadowhunter]

lol. ok so what does this confirmation from the spirit feel like is it just a a good feeling inside you or will u know beyond all doubt that the Book of Mormon is true?

[shadowhunter]

We LDS like to say how similar the beliefs are, but then the Catholics and Greek Orthodox are quick to say they are not the same at all.

HiJolly

I dont guess you have any links explaining them because ill admit i dont know much about thosis ive only heard the word infact i know more about exhaltion(sp)

[HiJolly]

I dont guess you have any links explaining them because ill admit i dont know much about thosis ive only heard the word infact i know more about exhaltion(sp)

Here are three:

Deification of man - FAIRMormon

Primary sources/Theosis - FAIRMormon

Downplaying the King Follett Discourse - FAIRMormon

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

lol. ok so what does this confirmation from the spirit feel like is it just a a good feeling inside you or will u know beyond all doubt that the Book of Mormon is true?

It can be anything from a small little "warm fuzzie" or perhaps a peaceful feeling, to an absolute perfect knowledge straight from God Himself. Truly.

I wish I knew how to tell why different people get different feelings/epiphanies/full-blown visions. ??

HiJolly

[shadowhunter]

thanks for the links the one on theosis is especally interesting and it makes sense too considering in revealation that jesus said "to him who overcomes i will give him the right to sit down on my throne as i sit down on the throne of my Father"

[bmy-]

I LOVE the King Follett discourse. It's definitely not scripture, though.

And we can discuss what it means for one to be "as we are now"--- consider that in the Garden of Eden God said "he is become as one of us, knowing good and evil". Mormons have pretty much assumed that this quote from the King Follett sermon is clearly meaning that God lived on a planet as we do. I'm not convinced that this is the proper meaning of what Joseph Smith was saying.

HiJolly

If it wasn't good enough from Joseph Smith.. than the prophets following after him (who confirmed the revelation) should be good enough for all.

I guess it comes down to your definition of scripture.

"In addition to the standard works, we have the word of the Lord today through His living prophet. Words of the living prophets when “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” are also considered scripture (see D&C 68:1–4). Church manuals and magazines help us learn the words of the prophets and the other scriptures."

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Teaching from the Scriptures

President Snow’s son LeRoi later told that the Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the validity of the revelation Elder Snow had received: “Soon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwood’s home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophet’s reply was: ‘Brother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.’ ” (LeRoi C. Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, p. 656.)

LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question

“This same doctrine has of course been known to the prophets of all the ages, and President Snow wrote an excellent poetic summary of it.” (Address on Snow Day, given at Snow College, 14 May 1971, pp. 1, 3–4; italics added.)

It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today.

We definitely could talk about 'what we think it means' but that's for another thread and a different day. Goodnight to you all!

Edited September 1, 2008 by bmy-

[Rico]

lol. ok so what does this confirmation from the spirit feel like is it just a a good feeling inside you or will u know beyond all doubt that the Book of Mormon is true?

In Thailand they have a phrase, same, same but different. I think that sums it up nicely. I think everyone has a different way of having it confirmed, but it's also the same. You probably won't see a pillar of light descend on you, you probably won't get a visit from an angel, but you will have an experience that removes all doubt.

That's not to say that you won't have doubt later on, in fact, while you are investigating you will alternate between times when you are 100% sure that the Book of Mormon is true and feelings of doubt and confusion. As long as you know where the confusion comes from, you will be ok.

There is a reason why visitors to the Church are called investigators. You are encouraged to learn more and discover more.

About many gods, on another thread, D&C defines what is meant by god and that means living forever. By that definition, Catholics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Mormons and every other religion that believes in eternal life not only believe in many gods, but also that everyone can become a god.

[HiJolly]

If it wasn't good enough from Joseph Smith.. than the prophets following after him (who confirmed the revelation) should be good enough for all.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "good enough". As I already stated, it IS good enough for me in that I think it is true and love the teachings. These things, though, don't make it scripture or doctrine. Just last year the Church declared what is and what is not doctrine-- find it here: Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom

I wish every Latter-day Saint would read this carefully.

I guess it comes down to your definition of scripture.

Every member should know what it takes for something to be scripture. All scripture for the Church is contained in one of the 4 standard works -- The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Anything else is not scripture.

If we add to our scripture, it must be voted upon by the body of the Church, at which point (if it IS voted in) it is added to the Doctrine & Covenants. I have been through this experience, adding two sections. It was back in the 70's.

HiJolly

[bmy-]

Every member should know what it takes for something to be scripture. All scripture for the Church is contained in one of the 4 standard works -- The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Anything else is not scripture.

If we add to our scripture, it must be voted upon by the body of the Church, at which point (if it IS voted in) it is added to the Doctrine & Covenants. I have been through this experience, adding two sections. It was back in the 70's.

HiJolly

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church."

But statements that the prophets continually reinforce don't fall under that criteria.. they can and should be considered doctrine. The material in the ensign can be considered doctrine as can our hymn book.

"In addition to the standard works, we have the word of the Lord today through His living prophet. Words of the living prophets when “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” are also considered scripture (see D&C 68:1–4). Church manuals and magazines help us learn the words of the prophets and the other scriptures."

LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Teaching from the Scriptures