Thoughts – what are they?

[Misshalfway]

hemi, do you need a break after all that posting???

[Hemidakota]

:) Yes...

I am heading out now.

[Traveler]

As we discuss our own thoughts, is there anyone out there that believes that thoughts are the function of the physical machine we call our brains. Are we in agreement that thoughts are received, generated and transmitted somehow to our physical conscious through what I will call for lack of more argument as “the ghost within the machine”?

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

As we discuss our own thoughts, is there anyone out there that believes that thoughts are the function of the physical machine we call our brains.

Yes. I do.

For example, Traumatic Brain Injuries (TBI) can cause a complete personality change, including cognitive, behavioral and emotional deficits. The person may have formerly been easygoing but is now easily angered, behaves inappropriately, become anxious, and depressed.

More troublesome is the injury can make it impossible for the person to understand how her behavior affects others; thus, the person no longer feels compassion or empathy, as the part of the brain that houses these abilities is severely damaged.

Additionally, people with TBI can have is severe sort-term memory loss. In other words, the person did have a “thought,” but immediately it is gone.

Another example is of a man who has temporal lobe epilepsy. When he would have an attack, he thought he was God. But eventually, as he recovered from the attack, he realized he wasn’t; however, he would feel a spiritual “high” for a long time after the event, even though he knew it was caused by the incident, and would go away if he didn’t have another attack before it could.

To me, the most interesting question is, if a person’s thoughts are part of his personality, which you claim are created by the spirit, what happens when brain function affects those thoughts?

What happens when his “personality” is gone, and replaced by a new personality whose thoughts are completely foreign to his original personality?

Does that mean an external, omniscient force is the source of thoughts? How could that be so when there is ample evidence to show that, without the brain, a person does not have "thoughts."

In other words, where are the person’s original thoughts when he can no longer physically have them?

And where is the "ghost within the machine" for these people?

Elphaba

Edited September 12, 2008 by Elphaba

[HiJolly]

As we discuss our own thoughts, is there anyone out there that believes that thoughts are the function of the physical machine we call our brains.

I think thoughts, specific thoughts expressed in words, are a function of the physical brain, yes. But not the physical brain alone, by itself, no.

Are we in agreement that thoughts are received, generated and transmitted somehow to our physical conscious through what I will call for lack of more argument as “the ghost within the machine”?

Sort of. I had an experience where Heavenly Father 'spoke' to me. There were no words. The best way I can think of to describe the experience was to say that my whole being instantly 'understood' a plethora of extremely clear, powerful, detailed and specific feelings that were more clear than the most pithy writer imaginable. There was no potential mis-interpretation, misunderstanding. None at all.

In fact, to even think about the experience, I had to 'interpret' the communication of what I call "pure intelligence" from H.F. into english (my native tongue) -- and in doing so, I corrupted the purity and power and perfection of God's word to me. It was a most interesting thing to observe, within my own mind.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

In other words, where are the person’s original thoughts when he can no longer physically have them?

And where is the "ghost within the machine" for these people?

Elphaba

Or, how does the 'ghost' express itself for these people?

The interaction of the brain with the spirit is a very interesting concept, one which we practically, almost literally, know nothing. By faith we understand that there IS such an interaction, but as you say, how can we understand it, how can we see any evidence whatever for it? I think the study of the brain (I won't say 'mind') has progressed enormously over the last 30 years or so, and I certainly haven't kept up.

The subconscious mind alone can do 'godlike' feats, and have either done so, or a guardian angel did it, in my life. So where does that get us? All VERY fascinating. Thanks for your thoughts on this, Elphaba.

HiJolly

[Elphaba]

Sort of. I had an experience where Heavenly Father 'spoke' to me. There were no words. The best way I can think of to describe the experience was to say that my whole being instantly 'understood' a plethora of extremely clear, powerful, detailed and specific feelings that were more clear than the most pithy writer imaginable. There was no potential mis-interpretation, misunderstanding. None at all.

In fact, to even think about the experience, I had to 'interpret' the communication of what I call "pure intelligence" from H.F. into english (my native tongue) -- and in doing so, I corrupted the purity and power and perfection of God's word to me. It was a most interesting thing to observe, within my own mind.

I've read this is how Joseph felt receiving revelations.

Elphaba

[Guest tomk]

As a scientist I find thoughts most interesting. I can understand thoughts that come as memories stored in our brains but how do we physically generate a thought or idea that did not previously exist in our conscious or even in our subconscious?

Is there a part of us that has telepathic capabilities connecting us to thoughts that exist outside of ourselves? It has been said, “I think, therefore I am”. Is it possible that thinking proves intelligence beyond ourselves?

The Traveler

I feel it is a mix:

1) My own thoughts.

2) Thoughts that the Lord puts in my brain.

3) Thoughts that Satan puts in my brain.

2 and 3 are so quiet and subtle that sometimes I dismiss or don't notice their origin right away. Once I realize their origin, I must choose to act upon them, to my sanctification or damnation.

Particularly from the Lord ... I feel like it is a constant broacast that I can tune into. One way of describing it is the Light of Christ. It fills the immensity of space.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:

2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

I cannot put it into words, for it is not utterable. But I feel God wants me to be ONE with Him. ONE with Him in every way, except, of course, for being one substance:

From a recent General Conference address by Elder Holland:

Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

This oneness, this unity, finds it's perfection when our thoughts are His thoughts. This is possible. We have all tasted of it.

Consider this statement by Ammon:

26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?

27 And he said, Yea.

28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

29 And he said: Yea, I believe that he created all things which are in the earth; but I do not know the heavens.

30 And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels.

31 And king Lamoni said: Is it above the earth?

32 And Ammon said: Yea, and he looketh down upon all the children of men; and he knows all the thoughts and intents of the heart; for by his hand were they all created from the beginning.

33 And king Lamoni said: I believe all these things which thou hast spoken. Art thou sent from God?

34 Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true;

35 And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God.

[HiJolly]

35 And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God.

John A. Widtsoe said that faith was a "greater knowledge". It's in one of our hymns. LDS.org - New Era Article - Faith, the Greater Knowledge

(from the above link) ...One of his poems, written as a Harvard student, now appears in LDS Hymns with a musical setting by Alexander Schreiner (“Lead Me Into Life Eternal”). Here one finds the lines, “Give me faith, the greater knowledge; Father, hear me as I pray.” (No. 141.) ...

It's an interesting way of putting it, and I think I know what he means.

HiJolly

[Elphaba]

I feel it is a mix: 3) Thoughts that Satan puts in my brain.

I don't remember learning this in my days in the Church. In fact, the way I remember it, Satan could not get into our heads, but that he could see what we were doing.

This memory is vague, so I'm probably wrong. But can you tell me the doctrine behind this?

Thanks,

Elphaba

[richlittell]

I don't remember learning this in my days in the Church. In fact, the way I remember it, Satan could not get into our heads, but that he could see what we were doing.

This memory is vague, so I'm probably wrong. But can you tell me the doctrine behind this?

Thanks,

Elphaba

I'm not sure, Elphaba, but my first thought would be how could the adversary tempt us if he couldn't inject some element of communication into our minds? Maybe he isn't allowed to read our minds but only inject thoughts, not sure though.

Edited September 12, 2008 by richlittell

[richlittell]

But wait.. if a demon can possess our body then maybe it could discern our thoughts and inject its own thoughts... thinking of someone else inside my body makes me think ewwwwww! Ok, back to topic.

[Justice]

I don't have the exact quote but Joseph Smith said that Satan can duplicate every feeling within us except peace. This is the sign of the dove. I think thoughts and feelings are very closely related.

[Guest tomk]

I don't remember learning this in my days in the Church. In fact, the way I remember it, Satan could not get into our heads, but that he could see what we were doing.

This memory is vague, so I'm probably wrong. But can you tell me the doctrine behind this?

Thanks,

Elphaba

He can put thoughts into my brain. That is not the same thing as KNOWING my thoughts. It is ONE WAY -- putting thoughts IN -- not taking them OUT and analyzing them. With the Lord it is TWO WAY. That is the difference, and the significance dawns upon us when we finally submit to the covenant relationship with Him.

I agree. I am sure they have mastered the art of non-verbal communication. They inject thoughts and then study every nuance of behavior to look for signs of enjoyment or anything that makes it seem like they are having an impact. They will keep on and keep on. They are very persistent...and diabolical. They hate us with a pure hatred.

Doctrinally:

• <LI class=searchitem>2 Ne. 28: 22

  22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

  <LI class=searchitem>W of M 1: 7

  7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

• D&C 85: 6

  6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:

[Traveler]

I think thoughts, specific thoughts expressed in words, are a function of the physical brain, yes. But not the physical brain alone, by itself, no.

Sort of. I had an experience where Heavenly Father 'spoke' to me. There were no words. The best way I can think of to describe the experience was to say that my whole being instantly 'understood' a plethora of extremely clear, powerful, detailed and specific feelings that were more clear than the most pithy writer imaginable. There was no potential mis-interpretation, misunderstanding. None at all.

In fact, to even think about the experience, I had to 'interpret' the communication of what I call "pure intelligence" from H.F. into english (my native tongue) -- and in doing so, I corrupted the purity and power and perfection of God's word to me. It was a most interesting thing to observe, within my own mind.

HiJolly

Very interesting HiJolly: I have had similar experiences to yours - I have also had experience where I felt great danger while everyone else around me sensed nothing of the sort. But reacting to this thought saved many lives.

The other thing that is interesting to me is a feeling that I know what is coming next - like I have seen what is happening before.

Perhaps most interesting of all are the claims of Nicola Tesla that saw and tested his inventions in 3 D images of thought that only he saw. His first brushless motor he built from his unique ideas is still in operation today and his design has not been improved in over 100 years.

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

He can put thoughts into my brain. That is not the same thing as KNOWING my thoughts. It is ONE WAY -- putting thoughts IN -- not taking them OUT and analyzing them. With the Lord it is TWO WAY. That is the difference, and the significance dawns upon us when we finally submit to the covenant relationship with Him.

I agree. I am sure they have mastered the art of non-verbal communication. They inject thoughts and then study every nuance of behavior to look for signs of enjoyment or anything that makes it seem like they are having an impact. They will keep on and keep on. They are very persistent...and diabolical. They hate us with a pure hatred.

Hi Tom,

Okay, now I remember it like you just explained. What I remember the most is Satan cannot read our thoughts, but I couldn't remember the rest.

As a child this was very frightening to me. I always was worried he was watching me, so he could pick up on something he could dig his talons into, so to speak.

Part of this was because I had a terrifying childhood; thus, I thought that made me more vulnerable to him because I was so often sobbing, depressed and angry. I think I had been told that was a sign to him that I wasn't as healthy in the gospel as others, and that he had sway over me.

However, I also remember being very glad he could not read my thoughts. I felt safer about that. So, at night, I would close my eyes to pretend I was sleeping, to fool him, thinking there was nothing he could deduce about me when I did that. Kids. :)

Thank you,

Elphaba

[Superbaldguy]

The way I understand thoughts is that they have tremendous power, and those of us in position of discernment (we all are to some extent depending on our callings) can tap into the "radio waves" if we are living worthily - the key is having the Spirit to be our attendant.

The Saviour's greatest skill may have been exercising perfect self-control - perfect thoughts, totally without any impurity. That is my great challenge. All of my sins begin as thoughts, if I dwell on them they turn into action; learning how to declutter my brain of negative thoughts is almost overwhelming but is worth the effort.

When I have good thoughts I seem to be able to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This can mean such simple things as reading good books, listening to uplifting music, reading the scripture and a host of all the "seminary' answers.

No doubt that scientists will be able to map out the brain to the point where they might be able to identify areas for certain thought processes, but it is far more than biochemistry at play.

[Superbaldguy]

Yup, whisperings of the Spirit can sometimes be a bit more audible.

[Tough Grits]

I always think of things like this in terms of a car.

You can have an awesome car with the latest bells and whistles, but you have to actually get in the car, learn how to drive it, and you have to learn how to use all those bells and whistles.

I think our bodies are amazing. Evey minute aspect is a huge miracle in itself. The brain is extraordinary, and we know so little about it.

But could a body move, think, or function without the "driver"?

For me, the "driver" is our spirits.

There are some functions that require no effort on our Spirit's part, like the natural function of our eyes to blink. Or our stomach growling to tell us that we are hungry. There are certain functions that are just automatic to our bodies...unless there is a malfunction or glitch somewhere...which happens.

Cars also have computers in them nowadays to perform functions in the car automatically for us.

Our brain is a computer, IMO. When I am on my laptop, certain things are running in the background that have nothing to do with me. It is hard-wired to perform certain functions automatically.

Our brains definitely perform certain functions that require no effort or manipulation on the part of our Spirit. There are always programs running in the background of our brains.

I think thoughts are an interaction of the spirit and brain, sort of like typing a blog on your laptop. The thoughts and words are coming from the human and are being inserted on the computer manually. Maybe it is the same between our spirit and our brain. We are "typing" information into our brains when it comes to thoughts.

However, just like with a car or computer, damage can be sustained that is so severe as to render our brains or bodies (or both) inoperable.

For me it is easier to think of my body as a car, my brain as the mother-computer installed into the car, and my spirit as the driver.

And just like any driver, I get into my "car" to arrive at a specific destination. Ultimately, my Spirit uses my body and my brain to live out life in a certain manner so as to arrive at a specific destination...God's Kingdom.

Just my simplistic take on things.

~TG