General information on a planetary crisis

[bytor2112]

What is there to argue about? Abortion is murder. That's the bottom line. No if and or but. Everyone knows what God says about murder. Good luck justifing abortion when you stand before him.

Hey Kona,

I think abortion is abhorrent.... murder is a bit strong, but I think a lot of the problem is education. If you are a teen age girl and are taught that abortion is ok...a viable solution to end the consequences of a poor choice.....then it is easy to understand why so many do it. The answer is education and teach consequence and responsibility.

Lastly, abortion is a grave sin to be sure. But, you can repent and be forgiven and be in full fellowship in the church. I am not sure how Heavenly Father will judge. There are lots of scenarios. The teenage girl who has been taught that it is ok is far different from the Dr. who performs the procedure...he certainly knows the deal. But these decisions are fort the Lord to make. Thankfully the church has spoken very clearly on the issue......its up to each of us to follow or not.

[unixknight]

What is there to argue about? Abortion is murder. That's the bottom line. No if and or but. Everyone knows what God says about murder. Good luck justifing abortion when you stand before him.

Well the fact is people who DON'T believe abortion is murder are going to reject that bottom line. That's what there is to argue about.

And mind you, the argument isn't always about whether or not an abortion kills a human being. I've dealt with those who are perfectly willing to concede that it's a living person, but that abortion is justifiable on the grounds that it's a human being who is living off their body without permission, thus justifying the act of removing said human by whatever means are necessary.

[OtterPop]

The LDS church doesn't equate abortion to murder. The policy (posted on another thread) allows for exceptions not even just when the woman's life is in jeopardy.

Why would faithful church members reject or second-guess that policy?

[bytor2112]

I am a feminist, but I do not consider pregnancy to be a punishment. Sometimes it is the literally the greatest thing in the world to the woman. Sometimes it is a devastating nightmare. But to say in the case of an unwanted pregnancy that a woman who chose to have sex must carry the baby, while a woman who was raped may legitimately have an abortion, suggests not just that pregnancy is a consequence of sex (after all, for the rape victim the pregnancy is also a consequence of sex), but that carrying a pregnancy to term is a punishment for her actions.

Not punishment....taking responsibility for your actions. Most pregnancies are not aborted until the 9th week or after........check the stats on the OP page. Nearly 50 % of all women who have an abortion....have more than one in their lifetime. 93% of all abortions are not because of rape , incest or mothers health.......it's about inconvenience.

I think we could all agree that there are extenuating circumstances and that abortion has gotten way out of control. Can anyone really defend 42,000,000 abortions annually worldwide? Partial birth abortion? No parental notification? Clearly we have taught our children that abortion is a constitutional right.... a way to get rid of a bad decision. The standards of the world has taught kids to engage in sexuality early....not surprising that when the standards are lowered...the consequences go away as well.

[bytor2112]

The LDS church doesn't equate abortion to murder. The policy (posted on another thread) allows for exceptions not even just when the woman's life is in jeopardy.

Why would faithful church members reject or second-guess that policy?

Kona is not a member of the church.....

[OtterPop]

. . . and I didn't address my question to Kona specifically.

[bytor2112]

From Planned Parenthood:

If You Are a Teen …

Teens are encouraged to involve parents in their decision to have an abortion, and most do have a parent involved. But telling a parent is only required in states with mandatory parental involvement laws. Such laws force a woman under 18 to tell a parent or get parental permission before having an abortion. In most of these states, if she can't talk with her parents — or doesn't want to — she can appear before a judge. The judge will consider whether she's mature enough to decide on her own. If not, the judge will decide whether an abortion is in her best interests.

In any case, if there are complications during the abortion, parents of a minor may be notified.

Can't drink alcohol yet or vote or maybe not old enough to drive.....but no need to tell Mom and Dad. Absolutely criminal...... if you are under 18...are you a woman?

Edited September 17, 2008 by bytor2112

[OtterPop]

Not punishment....taking responsibility for your actions. Most pregnancies are not aborted until the 9th week or after........check the stats on the OP page. Nearly 50 % of all women who have an abortion....have more than one in their lifetime. 93% of all abortions are not because of rape , incest or mothers health.......it's about inconvenience.

My point is that trying to join these two points (taking responsibility and ZEFs are people) into one coherent position results in an absurdity -- that a person has the same right to life as any other person only if they were conceived through consensual sex. It makes no sense.

There's also that pesky notion that a woman can reasonably be compelled to continue a pregnancy she does not want because another life is at stake -- and yet you can't compel anyone to donate an organ or even blood to save the life of another person. Why are only pregnant women required to make sacrifices to preserve the life of another person? I am absolutely opposed to policies that set requirements that apply only to one gender.

I think we could all agree that there are extenuating circumstances and that abortion has gotten way out of control.

Certainly there are extenuating circumstances. I can think of several compelling scenarios right now. Once you admit that there are extenuating circumstances, the question becomes who makes the decision about a pregnancy. Traditionally, the conservative view is supposed to mean less government intrusion into personal lives. But not on this issue.

Can anyone really defend 42,000,000 abortions annually worldwide?

I don't know of anyone except truly radical pro-choice advocates who does.

Partial birth abortion?

Some doctors assert that it is the safest option in a few cases. I have never heard an account of such a case where the abortion was not being performed for compelling reasons. If anyone else has, I would genuinely be interested to hear about it.

No parental notification?

How about if the girl's father is also the father of the baby? This is very much the exception, but it does happen. Minors sometimes find themselves in untenable situations where they have no control. (I'm a social worker. I have observed some of these untenable situations.)

Clearly we have taught our children that abortion is a constitutional right.

It is a Constitutional right, and has been for your whole life if you're under 34.

The standards of the world has taught kids to engage in sexuality early....not surprising that when the standards are lowered...the consequences go away as well.

If I had my druthers, no one would engage in sex at least until they were out of high school, but that's not the reality we're dealing with here.

[Hemidakota]

The following is a list of useful abortion statistics as well as some facts on abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.

Click here for the Guttmacher Institute's latest fact sheet on abortion.

WORLDWIDE

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

Where abortions occur:

83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.

© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (Guttmacher Institute: Home Page)

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Who's having abortions (age)?

52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

Who's having abortions (race)?

While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?

64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Who's having abortions (religion)?

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Who's having abortions (income)?

Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:

52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Likelihood of abortion:

An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Abortion coverage:

48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women

__________________

My first thought in reading the thread title - was the financial meltdown. Oh well!!!!

[rastler00]

I don't understand your point.......there are lot of unwanted and abused kids in the world...so should we just go ahead and end there misery by ending there life? Because they have bad parents....does that mean that they shouldn't have a shot at life?

Perhaps you would be better served to explain to your children the consequences that often follow sexual intercourse...and what there responsibilities would be if they were to become pregnant. "Sorry for the inconvenience.....in nine months we can put the baby up for adoption..." seems like a reasonable thought. Then you have helped welcome a life into the world and taught the child the consequence of there action.

First paragraph: In the first trimester I look at it as more of not letting the misery get started in the first place.

Second paragraph: The explanations are there. But kids make mistakes. Adoption is an option of course. But again, if it is a girl kid, it's not my body.

[unixknight]

There's also that pesky notion that a woman can reasonably be compelled to continue a pregnancy she does not want because another life is at stake -- and yet you can't compel anyone to donate an organ or even blood to save the life of another person. Why are only pregnant women required to make sacrifices to preserve the life of another person? I am absolutely opposed to policies that set requirements that apply only to one gender.

The problem here is that no amount of legal wrangling is ever going to change the fact that only women CAN be subject to such a policy. It's a matter of biology, not social prejudice. If males could get pregnant (or if, at some point through bizarre medical wrangling they do) then it would apply equally to them.

Men and women are equal in value, but they aren't biologically equivalent, and sometimes it gets in the way of absolute legal equality. I do find it noteworthy that this only seems to become a problem when we start pushing the boundaries of morality.

[OtterPop]

The problem here is that no amount of legal wrangling is ever going to change the fact that only women CAN be subject to such a policy. It's a matter of biology, not social prejudice. If males could get pregnant (or if, at some point through bizarre medical wrangling they do) then it would apply equally to them.

Men and women are equal in value, but they aren't biologically equivalent, and sometimes it gets in the way of absolute legal equality. I do find it noteworthy that this only seems to become a problem when we start pushing the boundaries of morality.

The question I posed was actually about why only pregnant women should (ideally, according to many) be compelled to sacrifice for the life of another. Why aren't people in general compelled to donate organs or blood to save the life of another person? That is the closest parallel I can think of.

I accept that biology does determine one absolute difference between the sexes: women can have babies and men can't. This does result in some "unfairness" that can't reasonably be remedied through policy. (For example, that a pregnant woman can decide whether to carry the child to term, while a father can't compel that she carries it or ends the pregnancy.)

I've found that few people really consider the implications of declaring the ZEF to be a person with full rights under the law. It has the possibility of creating an entire class of laws that apply only to women. Suppose a pregnant woman orders wine with dinner in a restaurant? Should she be refused because it's "bad for the baby"? Suppose she consumes beer in a park when she is pregnant. Should she be reported to child protective services, as she could be if she were giving beer to a 2-year-old? Suppose she claims that she is not pregnant. Should she be compelled to submit to a search or an examination to determine whether she is? Should a pregnant woman be detained or imprisoned to ensure the welfare of her baby? Should she be able to lose custody of the child in her womb? Then could the father assume custody? How would we know who the father is? Amniocentesis? Should the woman be compelled to have this test, which does endanger the fetus?

All of these are possibilities if a ZEF is a person with full rights under the law. I know these are extreme circumstances, but hardly unimaginable, as some of them have already happened in this country.

There is a long history of women being "protected" out of their rights because of their potential for childbearing.

Edited September 17, 2008 by OtterPop

[kona0197]

Why does the LDS church not believe abortion is murder? That is so ridiculous...

[Jenamarie]

Why does the LDS church not believe abortion is murder? That is so ridiculous...

Well, look at the specific exceptions they allow:

Baby won't survive past birth

I recently had a friend experience this. At the 20 week ultrasound her baby was found to have no brain. After several other tests it was further proven, and at 22 weeks the baby was "aborted" (labor was induced and the baby was delivered and allowed to pass peacefully). Some women may have chosen to carry the baby to term and part with it then. In this case, the parents felt they couldn't go through 20 more weeks of wondering if that was the day their baby was going to die (because they baby could have also died in the womb, prior to reaching full-term). They wanted the chance to spend time with their baby while she was alive, and the best odds of that were to induce labor sooner than later. Unfortunately complications arrose during labor (hemmoraging in the uterus) that caused the baby to pass during delivery, but they got to hold her and take pictures and footprints of her.

Mother's health is at risk from continuing the pregnancy

Sometimes women have pre-existing conditions that can make pregnancy very risky. No birthcontrol is 100%, so sometimes they end up getting pregnant despite taking all reasonable precautions. And sometimes women are diagnosed with something during pregnancy that puts them at risk of death if the baby is carried to term, such as an aggressive form of cancer. Such things where treatment during pregnancy isn't safe (chemo would surely kill a baby, and some medications for severe illnesses will also cause infant death, or extreme malformation). If the pregnancy isn't terminated then the mother could very well die, which will most likely also mean the death of the child. A lose/lose situation.

Rape and Incest

A gross misuse of the God-given power of procreation. And it can happen to women at any age. One of my grade school friends got her first period at the mature, womanly age of 9. Had some sicko decided to misuse her she could have become pregnant. Should a child that age have no option but to deliver the child? Could you imagine watching your 10, 11, 12 year old daughter go through the rigors of childbearing and childbirth? Can you imagine what that could do to their young, still developing bodies?

And in grown women rape and incest is just as traumatic an event, and sometimes having to carry the child of the person who so grossly violated them can be too much to bare. Feeling a child move inside you that was put there by someone so vile can cause great mental anguish. Some women have the fortitude to endure such a trial and love the baby inspite of it's origins, but for many women it's just being victimized all over again. (not by the child, but by having to go through pregnancy and having the right to chose the father of their child irrevocably taken away from them).

[kona0197]

It does not matter the reason used to justify the abortion. All you are doing is relabeling the act of murder with a clever reason.

God lets stuff like Rape happen. Why I have no clue. He lets bad things happen to all of us so that's no excuse.

This changes everything for me. I will no longer investigate a church that thinks abortion is OK...

[Jenamarie]

So if your girlfriend got pregnant and was diagnosed with an agressive form of cancer shortly after, you'd leave the cancer alone? Even if it meant almost certain death for her?

[kona0197]

Don't ask me ask her. Cancer is no reason to kill someone...

[OtterPop]

What if she didn't have an abortion, but proceeded with radiation and chemotherapy, knowing that it would kill the baby? Would that still be murder in your eyes?

[rastler00]

I'd let Kona be. Anybody who considers about half the population as supporting murder would just have to be miserable in living in such a nation. Probably scared too. I know I would be if I thought half the population were potential murderers. Heck.... I'd probably move in a really big hurry. :)

[bytor2112]

I'd let Kona be. Anybody who considers about half the population as supporting murder would just have to be miserable in living in such a nation. Probably scared too. I know I would be if I thought half the population were potential murderers. Heck.... I'd probably move in a really big hurry. :)

I think half is a bit of a stretch........

[OtterPop]

Not if you take a hard-line like Kona apparently does. Most Americans are in favor of allowing abortion in some cases.

[kona0197]

Most Americans have forgotten about honest morals as well...

[rastler00]

I think half is a bit of a stretch........

This below site is pretty comprehensive, using a number of polls, over a number of years. It covers the issue in a lot of different ways. FWIW, I would have no problem with abortion being illegal for anything over viability outside the womb (about 21-22 weeks).

Abortion

FWIW, do you really think if you had the public support you think you have that abortion would still be legal?

I think you run in different culture and group of people than I do (actually I am sure of that) I can tell you that most of my peers, my family, and people I associate with, over the past 30 years, have been almost exclusively pro-choice. Does this mean everybody is because that is my experience? Of course not. But I have to ask.... because you live in a different sort of world than I do, where most are pro-life, that therefore there is actually a large majority... because that is all you really see?

[rastler00]

Most Americans have forgotten about honest morals as well...

I apologize for not meeting your standards. I will try harder in the future.

[bytor2112]

My point is that trying to join these two points (taking responsibility and ZEFs are people) into one coherent position results in an absurdity -- that a person has the same right to life as any other person only if they were conceived through consensual sex. It makes no sense.

I don't disagree....but it is a typical argument that is often used....rape, incest or health of mother. Yet...that still only accounts for 7% of abortions.

There's also that pesky notion that a woman can reasonably be compelled to continue a pregnancy she does not want because another life is at stake -- and yet you can't compel anyone to donate an organ or even blood to save the life of another person. Why are only pregnant women required to make sacrifices to preserve the life of another person? I am absolutely opposed to policies that set requirements that apply only to one gender.

Again..... you have to completely ignore the fact that the behavior engaged in caused the pregnancy. I guess the simplist answer is that women are asked to take responsibility for there actions. It's just a fact of life......sexual intercourse can and often does lead to creating life whether planned or unplanned....wanted or unwanted. You obviously feel that a women has no obligation or should feel no special responsibility for the unwanted life growing within her......there because of her CHOICE. What about men? Should they have a choice? What about financial support for the child if the womed has the baby and they don't want to be a Father yet? Should he have the right to demand that she put the child up for adoption? Shouldn't he have some say so in whether or not she brings his unborn son or daughter in to the world?

Certainly there are extenuating circumstances. I can think of several compelling scenarios right now. Once you admit that there are extenuating circumstances, the question becomes who makes the decision about a pregnancy. Traditionally, the conservative view is supposed to mean less government intrusion into personal lives. But not on this issue.

Well.......lets be honest for a moment. Rowe V. Wade was pure Judicial fiat. It wasn't something that was voted on........ it was thrust upon Americans whether they agreed or not and no way would it have passed as the law of the land.I do think there are extenuating circumstances.......my major beef is that abortion is rampant. It has become the litmus test for feminists. There are irrational voices on both sides. I don't believe that abortion will ever be illegal.....but some aspects like partial birth abortion and the farming of the organs and the militant desire for minors to be allowed to have an abortion without parental knowledge and consent need to be stopped. Minors can't have a tooth pulled without their parents....but in some states they can have abortions?????????

I don't know of anyone except truly radical pro-choice advocates who does.

Then why aren't there more voices speaking out about the tragedy....because it is a tragedy.

Some doctors assert that it is the safest option in a few cases. I have never heard an account of such a case where the abortion was not being performed for compelling reasons. If anyone else has, I would genuinely be interested to hear about it.

Many obgyn's say it is never a necessary procedure......but I am not an expert.

How about if the girl's father is also the father of the baby? This is very much the exception, but it does happen. Minors sometimes find themselves in untenable situations where they have no control. (I'm a social worker. I have observed some of these untenable situations.)

That would be incest...disgusting and stll only accounts for 1% of abortions. Most pregnant teens don't want to face there parents and are not equipped to make these decisions. There parents should know....even if they are rotten parents. This crosses a big time line.....it is not up to anyone but the parents......if the parents are bad...remove the kids, if not, the parents make the decisions.

It is a Constitutional right, and has been for your whole life if you're under 34.

Sadly it is......right to privacy??? Judicial fiat. Look at the results...read the statistics. Is that really what women wanted....because that is the fact of what it has become. Birth control....quick fix to a bad decision or unexpected result of a moment of passion. Most women who have an abortion will have more than one..... so the experts at Planned Parenthood say.

If I had my druthers, no one would engage in sex at least until they were out of high school, but that's not the reality we're dealing with here.

And maybe then they would understand that there may be consequences to the action and might consider being married.......IMO