Mulitple gods vs. One God

[Misshalfway]

Hello again bytor,

I certainly do not argue that what you have shared is " a teaching " of JS, and I certainly do not need to be convinced ( as you know, I am not LDS ).

I was pointing out another JS teaching that certainly seems to contradict the one you offer.

Out of curiosity, why do you choose to hold this teaching and not the other??

God bless,

Carl

What is the other teaching that you are referring to?

And could you explain the contradiction as you see it? Maybe just restate what you think the disconnect is?

Maybe we could all get on the same page that way.

[bytor2112]

What Christian groups are you suggesting??

God bless,

Carl

Some of the same bigotted websites that site the LDS as a cult also site the Catholics. Surely, you must know that many evangelical groups believe that the RCC is as bad as the LDS or JW's???

Just as we are accused of many falsehoods or just completely misunderstood by those who profess to know all the answers.....so to is your faith accused of many falsehoods.

[rameumptom]

Many Biblical scholars are now teaching that early Jews and Christians both believed in a divine council of Gods. Margaret Barker, William Dever, and others have now written on this topic.

In short, El Elyon (God Almighty) was the head God and had many sons. He distributed the earthly kingdoms to the various divine sons. The land of Israel was given to El's top son, Yahweh (Jehovah).

We see this divine council in Isaiah 6, where Isaiah offers to be sent, is actually reminiscent of Jehovah offering to save Israel (Abraham 3). In Job 1, we see Lucifer and other sons of El going to challenge Yahweh for primacy through the challenge of Job. Genesis 1 has God making man in "our" image. There are many other instances in the Bible that support this idea.

Jesus told the Israelites, "ye are gods". Paul was definite in teaching the potential divinity of mankind, when he told us to let us have the same thought as Jesus, who thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Paul also taught that we are heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ. If we are a joint-heir, and Christ receives godhood, then it makes sense that God is offering us a divine role, as well. The apostle John taught that Christ "hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father" (Rev 1:5-6) - so we have Jesus, God and God's Father; and we are being made like unto them! Later, John states we will sit in God's throne and rule with him.

Early Jewish/Christian writings also reflect this point of man becoming divine. The book of Enoch has Enoch traveling to and from the earth, as do the angels, until he is appointed a divine commission as Metatron - one of the archangels/gods.

Margaret Barker wrote that Jesus was viewed by early Christians as Jehovah of the Old Testament. He was the "Angel of the Presence" and the "Name". He was to show us how to become divine as He became divine.

Some traditional Christian churches still believe in divinization, including the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches (although the RCC does not actively teach it, it is in their catechisms, etc).

Why have many rejected man's potential divinization? It goes back to Greek philosophy, the Nice and other councils and Augustine. The philosophers determined that God must be the utmost and pure of all things, and therefore must be of some other substance than us, otherwise God would be contaminated with a lesser substance. Augustine took it to a bigger extent, inventing the concept of original sin and separating us further away from the God who made us in his image.

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi Ceeboo,

I don't know of any church doctrine that suggests that God has a God and so on.....and I adhere to all doctrines of salvation and saving principles as taught by the Church.......

Mr. bytor,

One example of " God having a God and so on "

JS ( quote ) " I will take away the veil for all of you to see who God is, God was once a man of another planet " " you all can become Gods yourself" " God was once just like us, a man "

If that does not suggest that God has a God and so on, then ????????????

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

What is the other teaching that you are referring to?

And could you explain the contradiction as you see it? Maybe just restate what you think the disconnect is?

Maybe we could all get on the same page that way.

Hello Mishalfway,

Disconnect as I see it- bytor offered a JS teaching that God is only supreme governor, without beginning of days or end of life, etc . Another of JS teachings is that God was once a mere man on a different planet, etc ( hope that helps to clarify what I see as enormous contradiction concerning the same teacher )

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

Some of the same bigotted websites that site the LDS as a cult also site the Catholics. Surely, you must know that many evangelical groups believe that the RCC is as bad as the LDS or JW's???

Just as we are accused of many falsehoods or just completely misunderstood by those who profess to know all the answers.....so to is your faith accused of many falsehoods.

Hi again bytor,

" Many evangelical groups believe that the RCC is as bad as LDS or JW's"

Not sure I would paint with as broad a brush, NO QUESTION, there are several Christian groups that do indeed believe the RCC is flawed and has directly led to thousands of splinter " Christians " however I do not know of the " Christian groups you suggest " that do not consider Catholics Christian ( that is why I asked you who these suggested Christian groups were, can you tell me the Christian groups you imply DO NOT consider Catholics Christian???

God bless,

Carl

[rameumptom]

Our teachings on God the Father come from only two speeches given by Joseph Smith near the end of his life. The major speech used is the King Follett Discourse, which is understood differently be various members, because it was transcribed somewhat differently by about 5 people.

The gist of it is that God was not a "mere" man, but a divine son of his own Father, sent down to an earth to experience Earth life, be exalted, and now dwells in Celestial glory reigning over his own creations.

This is not much different than how we view Jesus Christ. He was the divine premortal son of Heavenly Father, sent down to earth for experience (Paul taught that Jesus learned to succor us through his sufferings) and to be our Savior, and now dwells in Celestial glory reigning under God.

Jesus is the pattern, and so if we condemn the common LDS view, then we risk rejecting Christ's mortality and godhood, which is in the same vein.

[August]

The gist of it is that God was not a "mere" man, but a divine son of his own Father, sent down to an earth to experience Earth life, be exalted, and now dwells in Celestial glory reigning over his own creations.

This is not much different than how we view Jesus Christ. He was the divine premortal son of Heavenly Father, sent down to earth for experience (Paul taught that Jesus learned to succor us through his sufferings) and to be our Savior, and now dwells in Celestial glory reigning under God.

So wait. Do Mormons believe that God the father and Jesus physically came to earth?

[rameumptom]

IF the writings of the King Follett Discourse are understood correctly, and so this is not a well-defined teaching or doctrine of the Church, then God would have been born on another planet, long ago, and perhaps served his God and brothers as a Savior on that planet.

Jesus himself stated that he only did the things he saw the Father do, which may suggest exactly this.

Since it isn't a well defined teaching - God has not revealed anything else on it - we do not actively teach God having a Father as an imperative, rather more like a good possibility of being true.

[Guest ceeboo]

Our teachings on God the Father come from only two speeches given by Joseph Smith near the end of his life. The major speech used is the King Follett Discourse, which is understood differently be various members, because it was transcribed somewhat differently by about 5 people.

The gist of it is that God was not a "mere" man, but a divine son of his own Father, sent down to an earth to experience Earth life, be exalted, and now dwells in Celestial glory reigning over his own creations.

Hi ram,

I am not sure I understand your contribution " 2 teachings near the end of JS's life "

The teaching I am offering ( King Follet sermon ) was taught April 1844, just short of 3 months before the death of JS.

" transcribed somewhat differently by about 5 people " The 4 who did transcribe this sermon were the same 4 who did many of JS teachings.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism said ( qoute ) " The King Follet discourse may be one of the prophets greatest sermons because of its COMPREHENSIVE DOCTRINAL TEACHINGS."

" The jist of it " as you offer is not at all what I get from reading what JS taught.

Among many things JS taught ( anyone can read it for themselves in its complete form )

Here are a few

" How God came to be God, I will refute the idea that God was God from all eternity "

" God himself dwelt on AN EARTH "

"God himself WAS ONCE AS WE ARE NOW, AND IS AN EXALTED MAN "

At any rate, I do appreciate the sharing

God bles,

Carl

[rameumptom]

There are a few other transcriptions that differ from the common version you shared, Ceeboo.

There also another Discourse in the Grove, where Joseph spoke on similar issues, even after the King Follett Discourse.

While comprehensive in some ways, it leaves the door open for a lot of speculation, which can include Brigham Young's Adam-God theory or differing views on whether God the Father was a Savior or "normal" mortal on his earth, etc. It also leaves open questions of ancestral gods - is there a beginning God, and if so, how did he become God?

So, President Hinckley was correct in a national interview he had, when asked about it, and he basically stated that some things were taught about it in the past, but we do not have enough information to really know all about it.

While an important teaching, portions of the KFD tend to be an outlier, as we just have not received enough revelation on it to establish it as a core doctrine.

[Hemidakota]

Hello Mishalfway,

Disconnect as I see it- bytor offered a JS teaching that God is only supreme governor, without beginning of days or end of life, etc . Another of JS teachings is that God was once a mere man on a different planet, etc ( hope that helps to clarify what I see as enormous contradiction concerning the same teacher )

God bless,

Carl

Ceeboo, what is your purpose of seeking such knowledge?

[Guest ceeboo]

Ceeboo, what is your purpose of seeking such knowledge?

Hi Hemi,

I am not sure what you are asking me, If you want to clarify, I will certainly answer any of your questions, if I can.

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

There are a few other transcriptions that differ from the common version you shared, Ceeboo.

There also another Discourse in the Grove, where Joseph spoke on similar issues, even after the King Follett Discourse.

While comprehensive in some ways, it leaves the door open for a lot of speculation, which can include Brigham Young's Adam-God theory or differing views on whether God the Father was a Savior or "normal" mortal on his earth, etc. It also leaves open questions of ancestral gods - is there a beginning God, and if so, how did he become God?

So, President Hinckley was correct in a national interview he had, when asked about it, and he basically stated that some things were taught about it in the past, but we do not have enough information to really know all about it.

While an important teaching, portions of the KFD tend to be an outlier, as we just have not received enough revelation on it to establish it as a core doctrine.

Hi again ram,

As always, thanks for sharing your perspective with me :)

Can you point me to " other versions " of the KFD that you suggest??

Thanks, and God bless

Carl

[Hemidakota]

Hi Hemi,

I am not sure what you are asking me, If you want to clarify, I will certainly answer any of your questions, if I can.

God bless,

Carl

Is there a purpose in learning that there is others beside our FATHER within this limited universe?

There are a few sermons that are written about this subject. Two that comes to mind, if Ram doesn't mind, I will post them...

Sermon by the Prophet on the Christian Godhead-Plurality of Gods, June 16, 1844

1844-June 16-DHC 6:473-479

SERMON by the Prophet-The Christian Godhead-Plurality of Gods.

Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844

President Joseph Smith read the 3rd chapter of Revelation, and took for his text 1st chapter, 6th verse-"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of I ate some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry-"The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen."

It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter. I have contemplated the saying of Jesus (Luke 17th chapter, 26th verse)—"And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." And if it does rain, I'll preach this doctrine, for the truth shall be preached.

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it?

Our text says "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.

John was one of the men, and apostles declare they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation. Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein.

Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God-that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! Crucify him! crucify him!"

Mankind verily say that the scriptures are with them. Search the scriptures, for they testify of things that these apostates would gravely pronounce blasphemy. Paul, if Joseph Smith is a blasphemer, you are. I say there are Gods many and Lords many, but to us only one, and we are to be in subjection to that one, and no man can limit the bounds or the eternal existence of eternal time. Hath he beheld the eternal world, and is he authorized to say that there is only one God? He makes himself a fool if he thinks or says so, and there is an end of his career or progress in knowledge. He cannot obtain all knowledge, for he has sealed up the gate to it.

Some say I do not interpret the scripture the same as they do. They say it means the heathen's gods. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven. You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness of the Holy Ghost, and a testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text. I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can. An unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew. Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aushumayeen vehau auraits, rendered by King James' translators, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." I want to analyze the word Berosheit. Rosh, the head; Sheit, a grammatical termination. The Baith was not originally put there when the inspired man wrote it, but it has been since added by an old Jew. Baurau signifies to bring forth; Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim it renders it Gods. It read first, "In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together." I want to show a little learning as well as other fools-

A little learning is a dangerous thing.

Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring,

There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,

And drinking largely sobers us up again.

All this confusion among professed translators is for want of drinking another draught.

The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aashamayeen vehau auraits"-"The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image." I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He acknowledged I was right. I came here to investigate these things precisely as I believe them. Hear and judge for yourselves; and if you go away satisfied, well and good.

In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through-Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth.

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow-three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me." "Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God-he would be a giant or a monster. I want to read the text to you myself-"I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one." The Greek shows that it should be agreed. "Father, I pray for them which Thou hast given me out of the world, and not for those alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be agreed, as Thou, Father, art with me, and I with Thee, that they also may be agreed with us," and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods; and then we shall see as we are seen, and be as our God and He as His Father. I want to reason a little on this subject. I learned it by translating the papyrus which is now in my house. I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the God of heaven. "In order to do that," said he, "suppose we have two facts: that supposes another fact may exist-two men on the earth, one wiser than the other, would logically show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist. Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them."

If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of' that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before. He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys, &c. I know it is good reasoning.

I have reason to think that the Church is being purged. I saw Satan fall from heaven, and the way they ran was a caution. All these are wonders and marvels in our eyes in these last days. So long as men are under the law of God, they have no fears-they do not scare themselves.

I want to stick to my text, to show that when men open their lips against these truths they do not injure me, but injure themselves. To the law and to the testimony, for these principles are poured out all over the scriptures. When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.

They found fault with Jesus Christ because He said He was the Son of God, and made Himself equal with God. They say of me, like they did of the apostles of old, that I must be put down. What did Jesus say? "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods? If He called them Gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scriptures cannot be broken, say ye of Him whom the Father had sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said I am the Son of God?" It was through Him that they drank of the spiritual rock. Of course He would take the honor to Himself. Jesus, if they were called Gods unto whom the word of God came, why should it be thought blasphemy that I should say I am the son of God?

Oh, poor, blind apostates! did you never think of this before? These are the quotations that the apostates take from the scriptures. They swear that they believe the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and then you will get from them filth, slander, and bogus-makers plenty. One of the apostate Church official members prophesied that Joseph would never preach any more, and yet I am now preaching.

Go and read the vision in the Book of Covenants. There is clearly illustrated glory upon glory-one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world differ in glory, and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions. By the apostates admitting the testimony of the Doctrine and Covenants, they damn themselves. Paul, what do you say? They impeached Paul and all went and left him. Paul had seven churches, and they drove him off from among them; and yet they cannot do it by me. I rejoice in that. My testimony is good.

Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So is also the resurrection of the dead." They who obtain a glorious resurrection from the dead, are exalted far above principalities, powers, thrones, dominions and angels, and are expressly declared to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, all having eternal power.

The scriptures are a mixture of very strange doctrines to the Christian world, who are blindly led by the blind. I will refer to another scripture. "Now," says God, when He visited Moses in the bush (Moses was a stammering sort of a boy like me) God said, "Thou shalt be a God unto the children of Israel." God said, "Thou shalt be a God unto Aaron, and he shall be thy spokesman." I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for.

John said he was a king. "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, and His Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever Amen." Oh, Thou God who art Kings of kings and Lord of lords, the sectarian world, by their actions, declare, "We cannot believe Thee."

The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.

I testify again, as the Lord lives, God never will acknowledge any traitors or apostates. Any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you; and if he will betray me, he will betray you. All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchisedek, which is after the order of the Son of God.

It is the order of heavenly things that God should always send a new dispensation into the world when men have apostatized from the truth and lost the priesthood; but when men come out and build upon other men's foundations, they do it on their own responsibility, without authority from God; and when the floods come and the winds blow, their foundations will be found to be sand, and their whole fabric will crumble to dust.

Did I build on any other man's foundation? I have got all the truth which the Christian world possessed, and an independent revelation in the bargain, and God will bear me off triumphant. I will drop this subject. I wish I could speak for three or four hours; but it is not expedient on account of the rain: I would still go on, and show you proof upon proofs; all the Bible is equal in support of this doctrine, one part as another.

[Hemidakota]

Again Ceeboo, when we inherit any [truths] knowledge and experience it by the Holy Ghost with confirmation, it is required that we live it or pay the price. Never ask for any truths, unless you planned to live by its doctrines or principles.

Receiving such, it becomes part of our eternal edification and pat of our testimony. Withdrawing from such, there is a great penalty.

He is another references that is latter from the first.

Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 2

Plural Gods

by Joseph Fielding Smith

Question: "ln the book, 'Doctrines of Salvation,' Vol. 1, at the bottom of Page 11 and top of Page 12, we find a statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith about plural Gods. We also find in the Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses, Chapter 1, Verse 6, the following: 'And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten, and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God besides me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.' These statements appear to be contradictory. Please explain this apparent contradiction."

Answer: In order to understand the doctrine of plural Gods, it is necessary to consider more fully the remarks made by the Prophet Joseph Smith in discourses delivered in the spring and early summer of 1844. Therefore I quote from one of these talks delivered June 16, 1844, after reading the following text from Revelation 1:6:

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry—"The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen."

It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter. I have contemplated the saying of Jesus (Luke 17th chapter, 26th verse)—"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man." And if it does rain, I'll preach this doctrine, for the truth shall be preached.

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural, and who can contradict it?

"Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father." The apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.

John was one of the men, and apostles declared they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation. Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! Crucify him! Crucify him!" . . .

REVEALED TRUTH TO JOSEPH SMITH

Some say I do not interpret the scripture the same as they do. They say it means the heathen gods. Paul says there are Gods many and lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven. You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness of the Holy Ghost, and testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text. I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can. An unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew.

"Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aushamayeen vehau auraits," rendered by King James' translators, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." I want to analyze the word Berosheit. Rosh, the head; Sheit, a grammatical termination; the Baith was not originally put there when the inspired man wrote it, but it has been since added by an old Jew. Baurau signifies to bring forth; Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods. It read first, "In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together." I want to show a little learning as well as other fools. . . .

The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the head of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, "Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aashamayeen vehau auraits"—"The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image." I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He acknowledged I was right. I come here to investigate these things precisely as I believe them. Hear and judge for yourselves; and if you go away satisfied, well and good.

In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through—Gods. The head of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take that view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth.

They found fault with Jesus Christ because he said he was the Son of God, and made himself equal with God. They say of me, like they did of the apostles of old, that I must be put down. What did Jesus say? "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods? If he called them Gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scriptures cannot be broken, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest because I said I am the Son of God?" It was through him that they drank of the spiritual rock. Of course he would take the honor to himself. Jesus, if they were called gods unto whom the word of God came, why should it be thought blasphemy that I should say I am the Son of God? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 369-374. See also John 10:34-36; Psalm 82:6.)

TO US THERE IS ONE GODHEAD

It is rather strange that Latter-day Saints read the revelations of the Lord as they are found in the Bible, Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Mormon, and Pearl of Great Price where there are so many references in relation to the eternal celestial kingdom and the exaltation which is promised to those who are faithful and true to the end and seemingly fail to comprehend them. It is perfectly true, as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price and in the Bible, that to us there is but one God. Correctly interpreted God in this sense means Godhead, for it is composed of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This Godhead presides over us, and to us, the inhabitants of this world, they constitute the only God, or Godhead. There is none other besides them. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6.) To them we are amenable, and subject to their authority, and there is no other Godhead unto whom we are subject. However, as the Prophet has shown, there can be, and are, other Gods.

Have we overlooked the fact that the scriptures, ancient and modern, hold out the promise to all those who are faithful and true to every covenant and obligation which the gospel places upon them that the reward will be that they shall become gods? Jesus taught this doctrine to the Jews. It is interwoven throughout all of our Standard Works. The promise has been made to all who are just and true, that they shall become sons and daughters of God, members of his household, (Ephesians 3: 14-15.) "joint heirs with Jesus Christ," (Romans 8:17.) and entitled to the fulness of exaltation.

Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D. & C. l32:20.)

INNUMERABLE GALAXIES IN THE UNIVERSE

In the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith the idea throughout the world in relation to the universe was exceedingly vague. Great discoveries were made during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The knowledge is now revealed that there are throughout the universe millions, in fact, innumerable galaxies—island universes—of stars. Formerly it was the doctrine of astronomers that these were patches of nebulae, or clouds of matter in course of formation into worlds. Their more powerful and delicate instruments have now revealed they are enormous clusters of stars, separated from each other by thousands, perhaps by millions, of light years from each other. Thus the great universe of stars has multiplied beyond the comprehension of men. Evidently each of these great systems is governed by divine law; with divine presiding Gods, for it would be unreasonable to assume that each was not so governed. As the discoveries increase—and we have learned but a few of the principles concerning them—more and more knowledge may be imparted, but the fulness will never come to mortal minds restricted to mundane things. The time will eventually come, when time and mortality are changed and immortality comes, that all things will be made known to those who have obtained the exaltation.

[rameumptom]

Hi again ram,

As always, thanks for sharing your perspective with me :)

Can you point me to " other versions " of the KFD that you suggest??

Thanks, and God bless

Carl

I'm not sure if they are in print anywhere. Blake Ostler discusses them somewhat in the second volume of his Mormon philosophy series, Exploring Mormon Thought. In them, he takes a very different reading and view of the King Follett Discourse and Sermon in the Grove - suggesting that God does NOT have a Father, but is the first God.

Personally, I think he has to make a stretch to get to his viewpoint, but it is a plausible reading.

[Hemidakota]

Ram, do you have a title?

[rameumptom]

You may call me, Don Rameumptom, Lord of La Mancha.

[Guest ceeboo]

Again Ceeboo, when we inherit any [truths] knowledge and experience it by the Holy Ghost with confirmation, it is required that we live it or pay the price. Never ask for any truths, unless you planned to live by its doctrines or principles.

Receiving such, it becomes part of our eternal edification and pat of our testimony. Withdrawing from such, there is a great penalty.

.

Hello again Hemi,

First I must tell you 2 things:

1. You are becoming one of my most precious new LDS friends :)

2. I have such a hard time understanding your posts to me , it is most probable that you speak above my intellectual level:lol:

Concerning # 2, I ( like always LOL ) do not know what you were trying to share with me,

was it that I should not ask for " truths " because then I would ?????

Thanks for posting other JS sermons that followed the KFD, although I do not believe they were " different translations as ram had suggested were avalable ", rather, confirmation of the KFD, I do appreciate the info:)

God bless,

Carl

[bytor2112]

Hi again bytor,

" Many evangelical groups believe that the RCC is as bad as LDS or JW's"

Not sure I would paint with as broad a brush, NO QUESTION, there are several Christian groups that do indeed believe the RCC is flawed and has directly led to thousands of splinter " Christians " however I do not know of the " Christian groups you suggest " that do not consider Catholics Christian ( that is why I asked you who these suggested Christian groups were, can you tell me the Christian groups you imply DO NOT consider Catholics Christian???

God bless,

Carl

Sorry Ceeboo....it's just a fact. I don't know specific groups.....call it some among the Evangelical movement. Google "are Catholics Christian...." No offense intended...I certainly believe that Catholics are Christian:) I have stated before that the debate over who is right is really only between the RCC and the COJCLDS.

[Guest ceeboo]

Sorry Ceeboo....it's just a fact. I don't know specific groups.....call it some among the Evangelical movement. Google "are Catholics Christian...." No offense intended...I certainly believe that Catholics are Christian:) I have stated before that the debate over who is right is really only between the RCC and the COJCLDS.

Hey bytor,

No need to be sorry :), I was not offended at all, I was just curious which Christian groups you were talking about. It was truly my own curiosity and nothing more than that.:)

Yes indeed, I know you believe Catholics are Christian, I hope I did not come across that you didn't.

By the way, for what it is worth or not worth, the reason I am asking your ( bytor ) thoughts on LDS doctrine, KFD and others, is directly because I have come to admire your thoughtfull posts as well as the knowledge you so willingly share from an LDS perspective.:)

As far as the " debate " over who is right, weeeeeelllllll, let's just say that we agree to disagree on that.:):)

If you want, do you care to comment on my other post regarding the " God has a God and so on ". If you do, I really look forward to your take on it and if you don't, NO PROBLEM my friend.

God bless,

Carl

[HoosierGuy]

Hello again Hemi,

First I must tell you 2 things:

1. You are becoming one of my most precious new LDS friends :)

2. I have such a hard time understanding your posts to me , it is most probable that you speak above my intellectual level:lol:

Yep, Hemi is a special one indeed. :) Ok, all of you are special ones!

[breeb]

You may call me, Don Rameumptom, Lord of La Mancha.

Perfect answer to Hemi's question! I love it!

[August]

just found an interesting passage.

Alma 11: 26-31 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

And he answered, No.

Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

And he said: An aangel hath made them known unto me.

BOM says only 1 God?