Mulitple gods vs. One God

[August]

I agree. But it seems you're a bit inconsistent on this one--- could not the same be said of the Book of Mormon? Is it true? Could be, according to your logic.

HiJolly

Sure, but LDS leadership has always taught that the BOM is an accurate historical record, whereas current Catholic leadership acknowledges that some Old Testament stories may not actually have occured.

[rameumptom]

Current Catholic leadership considers the story of Adam and Eve as rather historical, although there may be some allegorical issues in the story.

We also believe that some OT stories may be allegorical, and that the BoM tells stories that were written from a Nephite perspective, so we may not be getting all sides of the story, and may be getting some Nephite traditional beliefs or prejudices mixed in. But we still believe Lehi to be a historical person, just as we believe Adam to be.

[HiJolly]

Sure, but LDS leadership has always taught that the BOM is an accurate historical record, whereas current Catholic leadership acknowledges that some Old Testament stories may not actually have occured.

You are really playing fast & loose with the subject matter. I could say the same, for ex., about 'current LDS leadership'.

HiJolly

[shadowhunter]

sorry if this an old theard but i got a question if the father son and holy ghost are separte then and the Father possibly having a god then why does the BOM sometimes say they are ONE ETERNAL god(caps added by me for emphasis)

[Misshalfway]

sorry if this an old theard but i got a question if the father son and holy ghost are separte then and the Father possibly having a god then why does the BOM sometimes say they are ONE ETERNAL god(caps added by me for emphasis)

"ONE" has two meanings.

Singular......like a singular person or thing.

And then the concept of being "one" in unity and purpose. The Lord wanted every individual to be "one" in this sense. And this is the sense in which I believe many scriptures read.

They, the Godhead, are one Eternal God. They move together and act together in perfect harmony. The Savior was described even by Joseph Smith as being identical to the Father in appearance and deed.

Having said that, we pray to one singular God...and one God only. God the Father. We do so thru Jesus and the Father answers us thru the Holy Ghost. The Godhead is all involved, but it is this one being in the Universe that is our Father and our head.

[shadowhunter]

well that clears up the one part and it makes sense but how about the eternal part if God is eternal which means no begegining or ending then how could he have a father because then he would have a begining and thus would not be eternal

[Misshalfway]

well that clears up the one part and it makes sense but how about the eternal part if God is eternal which means no begegining or ending then how could he have a father because then he would have a begining and thus would not be eternal

Joseph Smith taught that all spirit is eternal.....not made or created....just reorganized. If you read in the Pearl of Great Price the word "organized" is used in reference to the creation of the earth and Adam and Eve.

God is eternal. And so are we. We lived before we came here. We will leave this sphere and live on into the eternities. The quality of such existence then becomes the question. Will we live unto Eternal Life? or Eternal something else. :)

Having said that.....we don't know if God had a Father. Any answer on that front is speculation and speculation only.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Misshalfway

[a-train]

Is Jesus eternal? Does He have a Father?

-a-train

[Dr T]

A-train,

I'll say it again, yes Jesus is eternal (because he is God the Son) and he is unique in that he took on human nature in his incarnation.

[Misshalfway]

Is Jesus eternal? Does He have a Father?

-a-train

It is a great question, isn't it?

[Brenton]

It is a great question, isn't it?

Would it be speculating to see he would only be eternal to our perspective?

If he is a spirit child also, then his eternity begins somewhere, like ours?

[a-train]

A-train,

I'll say it again, yes Jesus is eternal (because he is God the Son) and he is unique in that he took on human nature in his incarnation.

But does that make my questions any less effective in routing the mind to the answer to the question: "If God is eternal, which means no beginning or ending, then how could he have a father because then he would have a beginning and thus would not be eternal?"

It is an incorrect supposition that childhood denotes ex nihilo creation. Jesus is an eternal Being, he was not created. However, He is also the Son of Mary.

Would it be speculating to see he would only be eternal to our perspective?

If he is a spirit child also, then his eternity begins somewhere, like ours?

Our eternity did not begin somewhere. The immortal, eternal, spirit of man was not created and cannot be destroyed. While many have no problem believing that God will always reign over us, a barrier seems to stand in the mind when the notion that God has always reigned over us arrives. What is that barrier? Ex Nihilism, an un-biblical principle designed with good intentions, but untrue nonetheless.

-a-train

[rameumptom]

sorry if this an old theard but i got a question if the father son and holy ghost are separte then and the Father possibly having a god then why does the BOM sometimes say they are ONE ETERNAL god(caps added by me for emphasis)

In two of the key discourses where the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are pronounced "one God", we learn about the "doctrine of Christ". Both Nephi and Jesus Christ explained what this doctrine is (2 Nephi 31, 3 Nephi 11). It is that we must learn to be one, even as the Godhead is one. The manner in which we obtain unity/oneness with them and each other is through the foundational principles and ordinances of the gospel:

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

Repentance

Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins (also Sacrament, and other ordinances)

Reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost

As we follow this pattern, reworking it as we achieve on level of righteousness/grace, we can then move onto the next level of perfection, until we are totally and completely united/one with God and all Celestial beings. D&C 93 explains that the mortal Christ went from grace to grace receiving grace for grace, until he achieved a fulness of perfection and glory. We must do the same, by following in his footsteps.

[Dr T]

But does that make my questions any less effective in routing the mind to the answer to the question: "If God is eternal, which means no beginning or ending, then how could he have a father because then he would have a beginning and thus would not be eternal?"

It is an incorrect supposition that childhood denotes ex nihilo creation. Jesus is an eternal Being, he was not created. However, He is also the Son of Mary.

-a-train

No, God being one God in the Father, Son and Holy SPirit, with Jesus being eteral (always existing) and God the Father being coequal and coexistant with Jesus taking on humanity through his birth through Mary, does not cause a problem with anything you just wrote. The person of Jesus was there but he added a human nature to his divinity.

[Hemidakota]

Instead of speculation on what and whom is GOD, it would be better to ask the Godhead for the truth.

[rameumptom]

Dr T,

I understand the teachings from the Council of Chalcedon concerning Jesus' duality, but it still does not fully explain to me how God can be Spirit of three persons, without being contaminated by impure matter (such as us with a physical body), yet Jesus resurrected with a physical body. Was that physical body a temporary thing, absorbed into the Trinity as a part of all persons, or is Jesus the only person in the Trinity with a human nature?

[livy111us]

The early Christian Fathers taught something like this.

"If you understand the words, ‘work with His own hands’ literally, then neither are they applicable to the SECOND God [i.e. the Son] nor to any other being partaking of divinity... (Origin, Ante-Nicene Fathers E 4:601)

Robert M. Grant, professor of New Testament and early Christianity in the Divinity School of the University of Chicago, did a study on the doctrine of God held by the early Church, he writes "In a papyrus published in 1949 we possess a fascinating account of a "discussion of Origen with Heraclides and the bishops with him, concerning the Father, the Son, and the soul." A translation of the opening pages of this discussion is given here because it carries us into the kind of arena in which the early patristic theological questions were often fought out."

The papyrus reads: "Since the bishops present had raised questions about the faith of the bishop Heraclides, so that in the presence of all he might acknowledge his faith, and each of them had made remarks and had raised the question, the bishop Heraclides said: "And I too believe exactly what the divine scriptures say: ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and nothing came into existence apart from him.’ So we agree in the faith and, furthermore, we believe that the Christ assumed flesh, that he

was born, that he ascended into the heavens with the flesh in which he arose, and that he is seated at the right hand of the Father, whence he is going to come and judge the living and the dead, being God and man."

Origen said: "Since a debate is now beginning and one may speak on the subject of the debate, I will speak. The whole church is here to listen. One church should not differ from another in knowledge, since you are not the false community. I ask you, Father Heraclides. God is the almighty, the uncreated, the supreme

one who made all things. Do you agree?"

Heraclides said: "I agree; for thus I too believe."

Origen said: "Christ Jesus, who exists in the form of God, though he is distinct from God in the form in which he existed, was he God before he entered a body or not?"

Heraclides said: "He was God before."

Origen said: "He was God before he entered a body, or not?"

Heraclides said: "Yes."

Origen said: "God distinct from this God in whose form he existed?"

Heraclides said: "Obviously distinct from any other, since he is in the form of that one who created everything."

Origen said: "Was there not a God, Son of God, the only begotten of God, the first-born of all creation, and do we not devoutly say that in one sense there are two Gods and, in another, one God?"

Heraclides said: "What you say is clear; but we say that there is God, the almighty, without beginning and without end, containing all things but not contained, and there is his Word, Son of the living God, God and man, through whom all things came into existence, God in relation to the Spirit and man in that he was born of Mary."

Origen said: "You do not seem to have answered my question. Make it clear; perhaps I did not follow you. Is the Father God?"

Heraclides said: "Certainly."

Origen said: "Is the Son distinct from the Father?"

Heraclides said: "How can he be Son if he is also Father?"

Origen said: "While distinct from the Father, is the Son himself also God?"

Heraclides said: "He himself is also God."

Origen said: "And the two Gods become one?"

Heraclides said: "Yes."

Origen said: "Do we acknowledge two Gods?"

Heraclides said: "Yes; the power is one."

Origen said: "But since our brethren are shocked by the affirmation that there are two Gods, the subject must be examined with care in order to show in what respect they are two and in what respect the two are one God."

(The Early Christian Doctrine of God, Dialogue with Heraclides, pg. 68-70)

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, ANOTHER GOD and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them. (ANF 1:223, chap.56, Dialogue with Trypho)

Any study on the Divine Council would bring you to this same conclusion as well.

The New Oxford Annotated Bible provides this comment: Elyon is the title of El, the senior god who sat at the head of the divine council in the Ugaritic literature of ancient Canaan. ( b ) Gods, the lesser gods who make up the divine council (Ps 82:1, 89:6-7), to each of whom Elyon here assigns a foreign nation. 9. The Lord's own portion; NRSV has added "own" in order to identify Yahweh with Elyon and avoid the impression that Yahweh is merely a member of the pantheon.

[Brenton]

Instead of speculation on what and whom is GOD, it would be better to ask the Godhead for the truth.

How do you do that?

[Hemidakota]

Just ask...you cannot make any simpler than that. Joseph Smith did and overtime, he received his answer. Brenton, we have the same opportunity to do the same.