First Degree Murder and the Celestial Kingdom

[bytor2112]

If we have not yet received the Second Comforter ... all sins, including murder, can be atoned for.

After we have received the Second Comforter ... after we have had Christ minister to us face to face ... if we commit murder whereby we shed innocent blood, we become a Son of Perdition and cannot be redeemed. To commit murder after we have received the Second Comforter is to deny the Holy Ghost. It is to consent to Christ's crucifiction. It is as if no Atonement had been made.

Those who murder after they have been baptized, but who have not received the Second Comforter, will receive an inheritance in the Telestial Kingdom.

There are circumstances where those who have committed murder before baptism can still receive baptism, etc. -- but these cases ( I think ) require the review of the First Presidency. And who do you think they are talking to? They are talking to the Lord Himself about that individual. It is on a case by case basis.

Christ is the Judge Over All. He alone knows our true heart and the depth of our repentance.

Tom.....could you elaborate abit regarding the second comforter...please. :)

Thanks- Bytor

[RainofGold]

Tom.....could you elaborate abit regarding the second comforter...please. :)

Thanks- Bytor

Well i'm not Tom but I hope this helps,

The Second Comforter

by Thomas E. Sherry

The term "Second Comforter" refers to Jesus Christ in his role of ministering personally to his faithful followers (John 14:21-23; D&C 93:1; 130:3). Jesus taught his disciples that the Holy Ghost was a comforter (John 14:26), but he also spoke of a second comforter (John 14:16-21). Latter-day Saints have been given additional understanding about the Second Comforter by the Prophet Joseph Smith:

After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses…

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; …when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born [TPJS, pp. 150-51].

The Lord has counseled his Saints to "seek his face" (D&C 101:37-38). No sinful person can endure his presence, and hence will not obtain the blessing (D&C 67:10-13; JST Ex. 33:11, 20). In God's wisdom, some faithful individuals are blessed with the Second Comforter while remaining in mortality.

Rain

Bibliography

[Elphaba]

But too many seek the easy way out, when there is no easy way out.

Suicide is never the easy way out, nor is it "selfish," or any of the other platitudes people bandy about.

What is selfish is demanding someone stay alive when he is in unbearable agony, and then they disappear, leaving him in more pain than ever.

It is also not selfish to tell yourself you have a choice, and if you need to, then you can suicide. This actually keeps a number of suicidal people alive . . . knowing he has a way to end his suffering.

Sorry, Ram, but I really hate the "suicide platitudes."

Elphaba

[Vanhin]

Could it just possible that the bitterness comes from unfulfilled expectations? I reject your only two options. I am bitter because what I tried to obtained was denied me. Tried to play by the rules. God has favorites and it is apparent that I am not one of them. No...if I could have just one wish is that after death one could receive oblivion. I do not want any sort of self-awarness....if He were a "kind and loving God" that would be a blessing....yet I see myself setting up for another failed expectation.

Hey Walterkellar,

I am curious about your unfulfilled expectations. What could cause somoeone to feel such bitterness and despair? Is it something you could ellaborate on, or is it too personal for such a public forum?

I can assure you that God is no respector of persons, and loves you as much as He loves me or anyone else. His love for us is such, that he provided away for us to escape death and Hell, so that we could survive this mortal test. He has done everything for us that he can, without taking away our freedom to choose for ourselves. Faith in Jesus Christ, and in his atonement, is the relief you seek.

The reality is that our spirits are eternal, and your hasty escape from this world, prematurely, will not bring you the relief that you seek for. Instead, you will find yourself in a condition that makes it difficult beyond measure to work out your salvation, because you will no longer have your body. You will still have the regret, bitterness, and despair that you now have, and you will have the added disappointment of your last bad decision in mortality. Please, if you are considering that option, reconsider...

All of us who have entered this mortal life will be resurrected at some future time, and we will be judged according to our hearts, thoughts, words, and actions. However, I am not in a position to judge the final state of any who pass from this life to the next. I only know what the scriptures teach us. He who has suffered it all, and has been below, even what you could imagine, will judge us both in justice and mercy. The pain that he suffered for us caused him, "even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—" (D&C 19:18).

There truly is a better way. Learn of the Savior, and follow his ways, and don't put off the changes in your life, because that is the way to the relief that you seek. I promise you that.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Come one LDS guys....you can do better than the the answers I have read so far.

Here is the answer....Christ did atone for all sins. However, the question is which Sins can be forgiven unto us in this world and in the next and which sins cannot be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come.

Remission of our sins...is based on these doctrines.....

1st... the Ability to be RENEWED unto REPENTANCE [Heb 6:4-6]

And if we can be Renewed unto Repentance...

then it is based on ....... a. Repentance and restitution (The laws of the restitution are in the OT.)

b. The Degree by which we ourselves can forgive others. (Matthew 6:12 - And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.)

--------------------------------------

John has given the teaching of Jesus on what is the ATONEMENT which is when it is possible for us to be ONE In the MOMENT with CHRIST....So that His Blood shall cleanse us when we learn to WALK IN THE LIGHT AS CHRIST IS IN THE LIGHT.

1 John 1:7 -But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

AT-ONE-MENT occurs ONLY WHEN WE WALK IN THE LIGHT AS CHRIST IS IN THE LIGHT.

Sons of perdition have filled their souls with darkness......so much so that the power of the Holy Ghost cannot renew them unto Repentance.

So there are those who cannot be renewed unto repentance....Also there will be those who will refuse to repent at the last judgment....These cannot inherit any part of the glory of God.

---------------------------------------

Either men repent in this world or in the next. if men put themselves in the position of being unable fully to repent in this world...He will pay for in the Spirit Prison. Anyone that does not repent in this world or in the next world shall be sent to the Outer Darkness.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Bert, did you receive and understand the answer received?

[Vanhin]

Suicide is never the easy way out, nor is it "selfish," or any of the other platitudes people bandy about.

What is selfish is demanding someone stay alive when he is in unbearable agony, and then they disappear, leaving him in more pain than ever.

It is also not selfish to tell yourself you have a choice, and if you need to, then you can suicide. This actually keeps a number of suicidal people alive . . . knowing he has a way to end his suffering.

Sorry, Ram, but I really hate the "suicide platitudes."

Elphaba

Elphaba, my friend. For those of us who are accountable for our actions, suicide will not bring relief to agony, instead it will bring added agony and guilt to our immortal spirits. Death is not the end of us, only the end of our mortal bodies. Our spirits will live on, and will carry all our memories with us.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[walterkellar]

Vanhin,

In a very first posting of mine I stated that I could not feel being loved. This has been a great hinderous in forming a positive world/spiritual view. The posting replies, not unlike in my recent one, were coming from computers located in the Hundred Acre Woods. I know of the reasons for this feeling of lack of love, my mother was not emotionally bonded to me. The term is, I believe, reactive detachment disorder. The Peter Pan replies stated prayer and fasting as my panacea. I wonder if prayer and fasting can regrow legs if they were missing as well? Hmmmm....The same homilies of "buck-up Little Camper" is evident here as well. I lost my little family...ah, the glass must be half full then!! When the jobs were lost and the pain became to great....the home teachers were there the same way that the Tooth Fairy wasn't! Be of good cheer in passing with none stopping. We all heard the story of the man whose beets fields were harvested by friends...I heard the same story in Priesthood meeting so jolly feel goods all around with exhortments of doing likewise.....but in my dark little apartment the only knock was someone wanting rent.

So to sum up...God in His wisdom decided it would a hoot to deny the feeling of being loved by a mother and therefore being unable to be receptive the general feeling of belonging and being wanted. To the Christopher Robins reading this it is like placing something on a self but there is no self to hold it.

As for considering the options of to be or not to be...this is the only reality I know. Yet you say, follow the Saviour. I see the saviour as I do other people...cold aloof. But somehow that is my fault?! That has always been my preception. So, I have no legs and yet people say it is my fault for not being worthy and that I should fast and pray.... gotcha. By the way, the leg thing is a metaphor.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin,

In a very first posting of mine I stated that I could not feel being loved. This has been a great hinderous in forming a positive world/spiritual view. The posting replies, not unlike in my recent one, were coming from computers located in the Hundred Acre Woods. I know of the reasons for this feeling of lack of love, my mother was not emotionally bonded to me. The term is, I believe, reactive detachment disorder. The Peter Pan replies stated prayer and fasting as my panacea. I wonder if prayer and fasting can regrow legs if they were missing as well? Hmmmm....The same homilies of "buck-up Little Camper" is evident here as well. I lost my little family...ah, the glass must be half full then!! When the jobs were lost and the pain became to great....the home teachers were there the same way that the Tooth Fairy wasn't! Be of good cheer in passing with none stopping. We all heard the story of the man whose beets fields were harvested by friends...I heard the same story in Priesthood meeting so jolly feel goods all around with exhortments of doing likewise.....but in my dark little apartment the only knock was someone wanting rent.

So to sum up...God in His wisdom decided it would a hoot to deny the feeling of being loved by a mother and therefore being unable to be receptive the general feeling of belonging and being wanted. To the Christopher Robins reading this it is like placing something on a self but there is no self to hold it.

As for considering the options of to be or not to be...this is the only reality I know. Yet you say, follow the Saviour. I see the saviour as I do other people...cold aloof. But somehow that is my fault?! That has always been my preception. So, I have no legs and yet people say it is my fault for not being worthy and that I should fast and pray.... gotcha. By the way, the leg thing is a metaphor.

walterkellar,

Reactive attachment disorder is no doubt a diffcult challenge to just "buck-up" to, and I certainly don't discount your very real pain. I cannot imagine what it is like to not be able to feel being loved.

Do you ever recall feeling loved? How do you suppose being loved feels like, or how would you recognize it?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[rameumptom]

Suicide is never the easy way out, nor is it "selfish," or any of the other platitudes people bandy about.

What is selfish is demanding someone stay alive when he is in unbearable agony, and then they disappear, leaving him in more pain than ever.

It is also not selfish to tell yourself you have a choice, and if you need to, then you can suicide. This actually keeps a number of suicidal people alive . . . knowing he has a way to end his suffering.

Sorry, Ram, but I really hate the "suicide platitudes."

Elphaba

I'm not into suicide platitudes. I am into reality. I'm going on the concept that there is a God, which Walter seems to accept. If there is, and given this to be a LDS list, then there are reasons for what we are going through.

I'm not saying this life is easy. Nor am I going to say that all those who commit suicide will end up in the telestial kingdom. I am saying that too often we do not seek the true answers to life, and coming up short, end up seeing life as having no purpose. So, suicide becomes the easy way out, especially if someone does reject the concept of God, or believes God will wink at this indiscretion. The reality is, we don't know for sure how God will judge each suicide. He doesn't judge them enmasse, but as individuals.

What we do know, for LDS at least, is that God does have a purpose for each of us. And part of it includes going through the rough times in life, in order to prepare our hearts and minds for greater things; and for teaching us how to be humble, compassionate, etc.

The reality is, most Americans have had suicidal thoughts at least once in their lifetime. But most do not attempt suicide, because there invariably are other alternatives.

If a person is suicidal, then they need to get counseling or other help. Most that do end up being able to deal with the struggles of life. Those that don't and survive their action, often move on with a normal life. But please don't try and convince me about the "nobility" of suicide. While there may be reasons to shorten a life, there is no nobility in it. None at all.

[OtterPop]

For those of us who are accountable for our actions, suicide will not bring relief to agony, instead it will bring added agony and guilt to our immortal spirits. Death is not the end of us, only the end of our mortal bodies. Our spirits will live on, and will carry all our memories with us.

Do you believe that illnesses continue beyond death? Do you believe that a spirit can be clinically depressed? Bipolar? Schizophrenic?

I find it genuinely shocking that you believe that your Heavenly Father would bring judgment to bear upon someone with a mental illness who completes suicide.

Is this what you truly believe?

[rameumptom]

I think God will bring judgment upon all of us. He will take into consideration our mental and physical, emotional and spiritual struggles. But he isn't going to give us an immediate "buy" on everything. If we have the chance to get treatment, and choose suicide instead; if we have been taught the gospel, and can still make sense of at least some of it, then there will be judgments to come upon us.

Does God use mercy? Of course he does. That's why the vast majority of humans will receive a kingdom of glory. But if there are two people who have gone through extreme mental issues for whatever reason, and one seeks help and the other one chooses suicide: should God treat both equally? Should the one who sought to overcome not receive a greater/better reward than the individual who had as much opportunity to receive assistance, but chose the suicide route instead?

Illnesses continue with us until we are healed by Christ. That is why there is a spirit prison/paradise. For those who sin, for whatever reason, they must approach and fully embrace Christ, if they wish to be healed by His atonement. Healing comes in no other method or way. So, you either attempt to deal with your issues here, or you will deal with them in the Spirit world. Only God knows how things will turn out for the individual who commits suicide, as none can determine all the reasons, strengths and/or weaknesses of each person. We only know foundational principles, of which God sometimes allows exceptions. But he doesn't always let us as people know when he will apply those exceptions (such as Nephi killing Laban).

All I know is if a person is lucid enough to know they have struggles, and then to seek suicide rather than therapy and help, is the "easy way out."

You should not blame members around you. Most home teachers and bishops are not therapists. They are not experienced in psychological issues. They are not paid to be experts in those fields. That is why there are experts available, for when no one, including ourselves, are unable to overcome the struggle we are in.

You have emotional/mental issues which are difficult. We understand that. But you aren't the only person to go through these or other extreme issues. Therapists often are successful with people over time, as they provide a combination of medicines and therapies to teach the person how to cope, or even overcome the emotional damage they've received.

So, I suggest you run to your nearest therapist. If you cannot afford one, talk with your bishop, who may be able to get you assistance in paying for it. Seek a true solution to your problems. Looking back on it, you'll be glad you took the difficult, but correct path, to overcoming and healing.

[bytor2112]

Do you believe that illnesses continue beyond death? Do you believe that a spirit can be clinically depressed? Bipolar? Schizophrenic?

I find it genuinely shocking that you believe that your Heavenly Father would bring judgment to bear upon someone with a mental illness who completes suicide.

Is this what you truly believe?

I have a client that committed suicide last year. He was in his early 70's and had numerous health issues and was on a lot of medication that kept him a bit out of touch and he also drank alcohol. One day he just had enough of losing his dignity and the challenges it presented to his wife and he checked out.

I think that God knows how he felt and why he did the things that he did and he will indeed be merciful. I know that mercy cannot rob justice....but God is the ultimate in justness and mercy. I love my children more than my limited vocabulary can express and would always be willing to love and forgive, how much more does Heavenly Father feel toward us? Infinitely more. He will judge each of us by whats inside...whether we are good or evil. My client wasn't evil, he was old and medicated and tired of the struggle and didn't want to put his wife through anymore....I think God will receive him with love and understanding and a welcome that is beyond our understanding.

[Vanhin]

Do you believe that illnesses continue beyond death? Do you believe that a spirit can be clinically depressed? Bipolar? Schizophrenic?

I find it genuinely shocking that you believe that your Heavenly Father would bring judgment to bear upon someone with a mental illness who completes suicide.

Is this what you truly believe?

Hey OtterPop,

Of course I do not believe that physical ailments continue with us at death.

I believe that:

1) God is perfectly Just and Merciful.

2) Those who are not accountable for their actions in this life are not condemned.

Little children below the age of accountability are certainly not accountable for their actions. Some people with serious mental illness are not accountable, but not everyone with mental illness is in that catergory.

My words were for those who are accountable, and I am confident that they know who they are.

Regards,

Vanhin

[funkymonkey]

OK this is really personal and individual, but I hope that those here will feel the sincerity in what I am about to write...

A while back I fell into a deep deep depression and didn't know how to escape any of my problems. I felt trapped day in and day out in physical and mental anguish. I prayed every day, multiple times a day, but felt like they went unanswered. I felt completely alone and trapped. There was one person however that was more than happy to "help" me in my troubles, filling my mind with thoughts of "you're not good enough for the blessings of this life", "you're sick and nothing but a burden on your family", "it's too late", "there is no hope", "just end it, you'll feel better". I allowed those thoughts to consume my mind more and more. (I say I "allowed" because since then I have found the increadible power in what kinds of thoughts I choose to enter my mind)

So as this depressing stuff took more and more hold of me I started entertaining the idea of suicide and it really did make me feel better. So I planned out how I would do it and when and then the day of, I prayed to my Father in Heaven and asked him to forgive me for what I was about to do, but that there was no other way...

Then out of nowhere I got this strong feeling (not a peaceful feeling, but a feeling of power), and I heard voices wailing and crying...many many voices of such horrible sorrow and pain. Some were close and some were far away and echoed through the darkness. Who were just lost in a sea of darkness and despair. It was horrible. And it was explained to me that this is what awaited me, not to a place of peace. Then a voice scolded me, "How dare you do this to your sweet husband! How dare you do this to your family!" etc, etc

It was a big awakening for me...to see just what the consequences would be for my actions. Now I am in a completely different place in my mind, although my harships have not changed...and it was extremely hard to get here but the work was totally worth it. I have learned that I am the only one who has control over my thoughts and deeds, all the time...and it is my choice whether or not to allow the adversary dominion over my mind...and I choose not to allow him in.

I don't necessarily think that is the fate of everyone that takes their own life, but it was made very clear to me that day what would be my own consequence.

[OtterPop]

funkymonkey, Thank you for telling your story. I'm glad that prayer and faith pulled you back from the precipice.

I also very much appreciate Bytor's post.

In some other posts, I see a deep vein of judgment and of oversimplifying this issue. I work in mental health. I do think that sometimes people make suicidal gestures or attempts with questionable motivations (such as to manipulate others). Most of these people do not succeed in killing themselves, I believe because they're not serious about it.

These are completely different situations from people who have serious and persistent mental illness. Not all illness responds to therapy or medication. I do think people should get treatment, and I wish psychiatric treatment were more predictable and straightforward than it is. One of the tricky things about mental illness is that it really does interfere with patients' ability to assess their own needs and to follow through with their own treatment.

The posts that I recall do state that they believe some who completes suicide will be judged compassionately by a God who knows everything. I respect that.

[walterkellar]

OtterPop, sorry to have disappoint you on my failed attempt. I too have many years in the mental health/social work field...I am glad you are such an expert.

[bytor2112]

OtterPop, sorry to have disappoint you on my failed attempt. I too have many years in the mental health/social work field...I am glad you are such an expert.

I think you should reread Otterpop's post.......she is empathyzing with situations like yours.

[walterkellar]

I doubt I will pursue this any longer...I just caught the thread and funky monkey's question about suicide. Part of me wished ill upon those so smug with their knowledge and understanding. You don't understand nor do you have the capacity because this maybe is all too alien concept. Give me my little corner of the telestrial kingdom possible there may me the rest of my kindren. A parting thought...."If we are children of God, how come I find myself in foster care?"

[bytor2112]

I doubt I will pursue this any longer...I just caught the thread and funky monkey's question about suicide. Part of me wished ill upon those so smug with their knowledge and understanding. You don't understand nor do you have the capacity because this maybe is all too alien concept. Give me my little corner of the telestrial kingdom possible there may me the rest of my kindren. A parting thought...."If we are children of God, how come I find myself in foster care?"

Walter......may I ask how old you are? Are you a minor? I ask this because of the foster care comment......

[Guest tomk]

Tom.....could you elaborate abit regarding the second comforter...please. :)

Thanks- Bytor

RainOfGold did an excellent job.

A great book on this topic is:

Amazon.com: The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil: Denver C. Jr. Snuffer: Books

[jschroeder]

It is true the Savior did atone for our sins, all of them. While that means we can receive forgiveness, if He chooses, it does not guarantee where we will end up in the eternities.

Someone once explained it this way to me. The Resurrection and Eternal Life are free gifts and will be given to all.....where we spend eternity is something we need to have a hand in earning.

[bytor2112]

It is true the Savior did atone for our sins, all of them. While that means we can receive forgiveness, if He chooses, it does not guarantee where we will end up in the eternities.

Someone once explained it this way to me. The Resurrection and Eternal Life are free gifts and will be given to all.....where we spend eternity is something we need to have a hand in earning.

The Resurrection and everlasting life are free gifts and will be given to all......Eternal life is the type of life that God lives........

[jschroeder]

The Resurrection and everlasting life are free gifts and will be given to all......Eternal life is the type of life that God lives........

I stand corrected, that was the difference...everlasting life and eternal life.

I will try to get my facts straight next time.

[bytor2112]

I stand corrected, that was the difference...everlasting life and eternal life.

I will try to get my facts straight next time.

I knew that was what you meant......:)

[jschroeder]

you guys are so generous :) Makes it almost ok to be mistaken. Thanks for the friendly information.:)