Theological uncertainties

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

I imagine you have humbled yourself and are indeed obedient to recieve such knowledge

" sky is the limit " and do know all Gods mysteries and secrets to know who and what he is. Can you tell me all those secrets and who and what he is??

Thanks,

God bless

Carl

Is this the question you need me to answer?

Have I humbled myself and now know all of God's secrets?

Goodness no. ALL is a pretty big word and I don't know what it was in my post that would make you think I was saying I did.

But I do know some......enough to have a clear understanding of who he is and what he is.

Can I tell you the simpleness of what I know? Yes. But it will be God that will need to confirm if what I say and believe is in fact true.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Misshalfway
Had to add one more thought....

[Vanhin]

What are gods secrets and who and what is he ??.

ceeboo,

We don't know all things. But what we do know, even a child can understand.

The Bible teaches that we are the children of Heavenly Father. He is Christ's Father and ours too, or Jesus would not have taught us so.

So if our spirits are his children, then he is an exalted and glorified Man. Our mortal bodies were created in his image. Thus we are the same species as He is. He is not a mysterious entity, but the Father of spirits. To know the Father, we must know the Son.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:6-9)

The object of the Father is to exalt us like he is exalted, so that we might be partakers of his glory; and by his Only Begotten Son, does He accomplish his purposes.

It's so simple - we are children of God - and this answers the question of who and what God is... :)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[FunkyTown]

Prisonchaplain - You have hit the nail on the head. There are certain parts that confuse me to no end about conventional religion and that may be why it never rang true. I desperately -wanted- to know the truth and prayed every night that it would reveal itself to me. It just never came. "Wait... Why does Jesus say 'Why hast thou forsaken me?' if he and God are the same person? Why does he say 'Nevertheless, thy will and not mine be done.' - Isn't he really saying 'Nevertheless, my will and not mine be done.'?" and I was always told it was one of God's mysteries. I had questions about why someone couldn't repent after death and was told 'Because it has been decreed'. I wondered why people went to Hell for not choosing Christ in this life when the world has done its best to obfuscate the truth and make it impossible to -know-. I wondered if the vast majority of the world throughout history were destined for Hell and the fairness of that.

Each time, I was given unsatisfactory answers. So I prayed for answers, desperately wanting only to know the truth.

What ambiguity am I comfortable with? I'm comfortable with ambiguity regarding the Saints, regarding the future, regarding God's will for me. But I'm not comfortable with ambiguity that could result in eternal burning for billions. -That- I need to know the truth of.

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

First, I was not suggesting divisions nor was I suggesting you were. I was asking what ( no one can be saved in ignorance ) means ( beacause I am obviously ignorant :)) I still do not know what you mean or who the " unsaved ignorant ones are ":confused:

Thanks for referring me to Vanhin's post but I was hoping to get an answer from you regarding your post. What are gods secrets and who and what is he ??.

I will, my friend, answer your question to me :)

God not only wants us to understand basic and sure information about who he is, He indeed came and lived among his very creations, walked with, taught, lead, loved, and told us from his very mouth in his very words who and what he is all about.

God bless,

Carl

I don't think I could improve on Bytor's remarks in regards to my ignorance reference. A person must have knowledge before God can really help them change their lives and choose the right. It is like teaching someone to read..... the world and its possibilities open to them.

I think you and I are on the same page judging by your last comment.

What are God's secrets? Well, that is a huge spectrum, isn't it? From the basic truth about the nature of God to the gospel to the questions about why we are here and where will we go after we die to the origins of the universe! Like I said in my first post, God is the keeper of all this knowledge and he controls the who and the when and the what.

He has revealed his plan (essential secrets) to his prophets who are then commanded to teach the world thru the Holy Ghost. And we are given the choice to accept or reject. And we will be judged after this life according to how we receive the truth. The Holy Ghost is the confirmer of all the truth. And I believe we can come to a sure knowledge about who and what God is. I also believe that such knowledge often comes in degrees or in installments, if you will, as we become ready for more.

The question of this thread is whether or not we are comfortable with spiritual uncertainty. And to that I say yes and no. There are things I may never know. I am comfortable with that. But there are truths that are essential to understand and understand correctly. It is against my belief that God wants us to be confused about who he is or the tenants of his gospel. There is either a true understanding or there isn't. Truth or error. God is not the author of confusion nor does he want his followers to be ignorant or blindly following along. He wants to work inside of each of our souls so that we may do his work and so he can transform us into something holy and fit for his kingdom. Having sure knowledge is essential to such a process.

Can you imagine trying to raise your children with confused and inconsistent directions? How can a child know which way to go when the parent doesn't give clear and correct information and rules and guidance?

Edited October 9, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Guest ceeboo]

ceeboo,

We don't know all things. But what we do know, even a child can understand.

So if our spirits are his children, then he is an exalted and glorified Man. Our mortal bodies were created in his image. Thus we are the same species as He is. He is not a mysterious entity, but the Father of spirits. To know the Father, we must know the Son.

The object of the Father is to exalt us like he is exalted, so that we might be partakers of his glory; and by his Only Begotten Son, does He accomplish his purposes.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Hello Vanhin,

Thanks for the warm reply :)

I fully realize and respect why LDS claim such ( First vision, King Follet, etc ) regarding God being an exlted man, object is to also exalt us also, God and Son being two bodily forms.

I, again, aprreciate the LDS understanding and have had many LDS members who shared, as well as provided their interpretations of Scripture that claims to support it.

This, for me, a Non LDS, has been very educational and indeed a pleasant journey getting to know many of you as well as what and why you believe what you do.:) ( Ceeboo does thank you all for that ):)

I simply, respectfully, and humbly do not agree with the LDS understanding of who God is nor do I place any " heavy weights " on the prophetic teachings on the subject.

I do, however, look forward to a time where WE ALL may be in the Kingdom together and RE-LOOK at many of our Christian discussions ( This one included ):):)

God bless Vanhin, thanks again for sharing your thoughts

Carl

Edited October 9, 2008 by ceeboo

[Misshalfway]

Hello Misshalfway,

First, I was not suggesting divisions nor was I suggesting you were. I was asking what ( no one can be saved in ignorance ) means ( beacause I am obviously ignorant :)) I still do not know what you mean or who the " unsaved ignorant ones are ":confused:

Thanks for referring me to Vanhin's post but I was hoping to get an answer from you regarding your post. What are gods secrets and who and what is he ??.

I will, my friend, answer your question to me :)

God not only wants us to understand basic and sure information about who he is, He indeed came and lived among his very creations, walked with, taught, lead, loved, and told us from his very mouth in his very words who and what he is all about.

God bless,

Carl

I don't think I could improve on Bytor's remarks in regards to my ignorance reference. A person must have knowledge before God can really help them change their lives and choose the right. It is like teaching someone to read..... the world and its possibilities open to them.

I think you and I are on the same page judging by your last comment.

What are God's secrets? Well, that is a huge spectrum, isn't it? From the basic truth about the nature of God to the gospel to the questions about why we are here and where will we go after we die to the origins of the universe! Like I said in my first post, God is the keeper of all this knowledge and he controls the who and the when and the what.

He has revealed his plan (essential secrets) to his prophets who are then commanded to teach the world thru the Holy Ghost. Including who his is, what his body is like, and our relationship to him. And we are given the choice to accept or reject. And we will be judged after this life according to how we receive the truth. The Holy Ghost is the confirmer of all the truth. And I believe we can come to a sure knowledge about who and what God is. I also believe that such knowledge often comes in degrees or in installments, if you will, as we become ready for more.

The question of this thread is whether or not we are comfortable with spiritual uncertainty. And to that I say yes and no. There are things I may never know. I am comfortable with that. But there are truths that are essential to understand and understand correctly. It is against my belief that God wants us to be confused about who he is or the tenants of his gospel. There is either a true understanding or there isn't. Truth or error. God is not the author of confusion nor does he want his followers to be ignorant or blindly following along. He wants to work inside of each of our souls so that we may do his work and so he can transform us into something holy and fit for his kingdom.

[Misshalfway]

And yet, at least in some ways, could it be that there is a measure of faith in not having all the answers? We believe God, study his revealed word, and at the end of the day say, "I know what I know, believe what I believe, and trust God with the rest." How many parents have ever responded to a child's "Why?' with, "Because I said so," and the child responded, "OK?" The child still wants to know why, s/he knows you can be trusted, and that when the time is right, you will explain.

I think that this is a great point, PC. And I think that there is truth here. Jesus explained that it was important to become as a little child..... to let the Lord lead us by the hand. And in my own experience with God, this is very much how I feel as he leads me thru and as I sometimes protest because the way seems dark.

But I don't think this the only thing that happens. I think there are truths in this world that some harden their hearts to. There are some who do hear the truth and become angry by it. Or who accept some of the truth and close their minds because of sin or self justification or because they want to believe but they want their sin too. The Book of Mormon talks about those who "take the truth to be hard". Which reminds me of one of my favorite sayings; " The truth will set you free, but first it will tick you off."

I think people sometime deliberately look at the truth and refuse to see. Like the Sadducees and the Pharasee's who knew better than God himself even as he stood before them. This reminds me of one of my hero's in the BofM. A man named Amulek who did eventually become a great missionary, who describes his heart like this; "Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God...." (Alma 10:6)

And I also think that some are blind because of the traditions of their fathers which were not correct. Something that the Lord is merciful with. And I think that may apply to all of us in one circumstance or another.

And while I recognize that God does sometimes require that we trust him and that this is absolutely part of faith, I don't believe he requires that we trust him without testimony and I don't think this is his end goal. And I think the fact that he promises us more knowledge on the other side of obedience is important too. He want to give us knowledge. He wants us to plant the seed and see if it is good and he wants our knowledge to be perfect. And it can be ..... one truth at a time. I believe if this world would be more righteous, he would reveal more.

And I suppose as a Latter- saint, it does baffle me to some degree that many say no to the BofM and the D&C and the Pearl simply because they have decided that God has given enough light and knowledge to the earth and that he won't give anymore. I am always surprised by such sentiment as I hear the arguments on various fronts that the Heaven's are closed and that God's work is done. This interpretation makes me wonder if God loved the people who lived on the earth before Christ and back to Adam more than he loves us. Why would he leave us to interpret the scriptures alone with only our finite human intellect? Why wouldn't he teach us the truth of all things directly if we went to him in prayer? Why wouldn't he pull back the veil and show prophets today the same as in old times or give dreams or visions or visitations? Why wouldn't he confirm the gospel truth that has been established by prophets before and give us added light and knowledge if He desires to, especially when Satan is working so effectively at clouding truth with confusion?

Edited October 9, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Guest ceeboo]

And I suppose as a Latter- saint, it does baffle me to some degree that many say no to the BofM and the D&C and the Pearl simply because they have decided that God has given enough light and knowledge to the earth and that he won't give anymore. I am always surprised by such sentiment as I hear the arguments on various fronts that the Heaven's are closed and that God's work is done.

Hello again misshalfway,

This is simply an offering ( to be fair about our discussion ) that your bias ( like my bias:))

MANY times shines and indeed overshadows the reality of the situation.:)

I will speak for me But do have alot of confidence that I speak for the great majority of non LDS folks.:) I say " No " to the BofM, D&C and Pearl for MUCH larger and clear reasons than the one you suggest ( " simply because they have decided that God has given enough light and knowledge to earth and that he won't give any more ") I think to suggest that is a gross misrepresentation of your fellow Christains.

I will repeat ( to be fair ) I also, like you, have bias.:)

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

This is an LDS site, Ceeboo, the bias goes without saying.

It is clear to me that you don't like 90% of what I say and how I say it. Fine. If I have it wrong, then great, but I don't think you have been inside of all of my conversations and can't know of my experience. An experience that didn't include you. And couldn't I look back at you, and say the same thing as you have so grossly misinterpreted our position and our prophet joseph? And haven't I and so many others graciously tolerated your bias?

I get that you don't believe as I do. You keep reminding me over and over. Yet you are here engaging the conversation and constantly asking me to answer you. Something I graciously do.

So.....if you wouldn't mind tolerating my bias as I graciously tolerate yours not to mention your sometimes cutting questions concerning the things that I love, I would appreciate it. Something that I have never at any time done to your beliefs.

Please. A kind target off my back would be most appreciated.

[Guest ceeboo]

This is an LDS site, Ceeboo, the bias goes without saying.

It is clear to me that you don't like 90% of what I say and how I say it. Fine. If I have it wrong, then great, but I don't think you have been inside of all of my conversations and can't know of my experience. An experience that didn't include you. And couldn't I look back at you, and say the same thing as you have so grossly misinterpreted our position and our prophet joseph? And haven't I and so many others graciously tolerated your bias?

I get that you don't believe as I do. You keep reminding me over and over. Yet you are here engaging the conversation and constantly asking me to answer you. Something I graciously do.

So.....if you wouldn't mind tolerating my bias as I graciously tolerate yours not to mention your sometimes cutting questions concerning the things that I love, I would appreciate it. Something that I have never at any time done to your beliefs.

Please. A kind target off my back would be most appreciated.

Misshalfway,

A few words for you then I will not engage you further.

I am not sure why you always seem to get so emotional and upset when I simply try to engage you in ( what I think anyway ) are very interesting discussions.

I am aware that this is an LDS site. I would suggest to you ( I could be wrong, it would not be the first time ) that if your desire is to have only LDS sharing here or only LDS perspectives, WE ALL will have missed a great opportunity to grow. ( Including LDS )

Rather than " pout " back at you, I will simply stand on my offering that the reason you suggest people do not accept the BofM, D&C and Pearl are not the reality.

The good news, I will not engage you further as it obviously upsets you. This was not and never has been my intention. I am sorry for that.

BTW, you don't really ever answer my questions

God bles,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

I will take my remarks to a PM as to not derail this wonderful thread.

[Vanhin]

Hello Vanhin,

Thanks for the warm reply :)

I fully realize and respect why LDS claim such ( First vision, King Follet, etc ) regarding God being an exlted man, object is to also exalt us also, God and Son being two bodily forms.

I, again, aprreciate the LDS understanding and have had many LDS members who shared, as well as provided their interpretations of Scripture that claims to support it.

This, for me, a Non LDS, has been very educational and indeed a pleasant journey getting to know many of you as well as what and why you believe what you do.:) ( Ceeboo does thank you all for that ):)

I simply, respectfully, and humbly do not agree with the LDS understanding of who God is nor do I place any " heavy weights " on the prophetic teachings on the subject.

I do, however, look forward to a time where WE ALL may be in the Kingdom together and RE-LOOK at many of our Christian discussions ( This one included ):):)

God bless Vanhin, thanks again for sharing your thoughts

Carl

Thank you Carl.

Since the topic is about theological uncertainties, I want to assure you that the knowledge of the nature of God and his relationship with us is not in the realm of uncertainty. Perhaps it is for you, and for others, because you do not accept our message. But it is not uncertain to me. It is as true as sunlight to me, because God himself has made it known to me.

But here is the wonderful part - God is no respector of persons, and you can know it too. It is within your reach to make this question certain to your soul as well, if you will exercise the faith necessary to receive it. You don't have to wait until our mortal probation is over. I am a witness to you that God answers prayers, especially prayers of this nature. I invite you to ask God himself if He is the literal Father of your spirit. Ask him in the name of Jesus Christ, and do it in faith, believing that he will answer, and he will.

Through the power of his Spirit, speaking to your spirit, He will answer in the affirmative. This I am quite confident about. This is the question He has been waiting so long for you to ask Him, because he wants you to know it without any doubt.

To me this doesn't seem like an unreasonable challenge, but it's really up to you. This is how I know. I have asked God directly. No priests, pastors, or elders needed. Just you and God.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[bytor2112]

And I suppose as a Latter- saint, it does baffle me to some degree that many say no to the BofM and the D&C and the Pearl simply because they have decided that God has given enough light and knowledge to the earth and that he won't give anymore. I am always surprised by such sentiment as I hear the arguments on various fronts that the Heaven's are closed and that God's work is done. This interpretation makes me wonder if God loved the people who lived on the earth before Christ and back to Adam more than he loves us. Why would he leave us to interpret the scriptures alone with only our finite human intellect? Why wouldn't he teach us the truth of all things directly if we went to him in prayer? Why wouldn't he pull back the veil and show prophets today the same as in old times or give dreams or visions or visitations? Why wouldn't he confirm the gospel truth that has been established by prophets before and give us added light and knowledge if He desires to, especially when Satan is working so effectively at clouding truth with confusion?

I understand why people can be hesitant to accept the LDS teachings.....just like us they don't want to be deceived. They are afraid of being drawn into something that could have eternal consequences and based on the abundant negative misinformation about our faith.....it is easy to see why. Thankfully, in the infinite wisdom of the Father and the eternal love he has for us....he has given all mankind the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel, whether in this life or in the spirit realms. The passage of scripture that I think I most love as it relates to God and his love for man is Moses 1 v. 39, " 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." This scripture let's me know that we are his work and his passion and gives me a great deal of comfort to know that we are his focus.

[prisonchaplain]

I absolutely love your above post, btw. Really really good stuff there.

For me, it isn't really a question of how much spiritual uncertainty I am comfortable with. God is the keeper of the truth. He is the decision maker of how much is given and to whom it is given to. So in that spirit, I absolutely feel that there are things I may never know in the course of my life time and Gods will must be done.

Having said that, I believe that God does want us to have a very satisfying degree of spiritual certainty. I think such is necessary because no one can be saved in ignorance.

I don't believe the God of the bible is a god of confusion nor do I believe that God has place glass ceilings on how much truth and clarity he will give the earth. I believe that he has promised that He will tell us the truth of all things thru the Spirit and IF we humble ourselves and are obedient to the prereq's of receiving such knowledge. I believe that He wants to tell us his mysteries and hidden secrets of knowledge concerning who and what He is and who and what we are and why we are here on earth. I guess I am saying that to some degree the sky is the limit.

Confusion breeds unrest and levels of darkness. Truth dispels the dark and literally chases it away. It gives peace and surety and something solid and trustworthy to place our faith in. God gives us light and knowledge by degree. The more obedient and sanctified we become, the more enlightened we become.

You offer powerful thoughts. I'm wondering, though, what the limits are on general revelation to the church universal, vs. personal revelation? There is no doubt that we can spend our lifetimes communing with God, and reach vastly different levels of understanding. However, do you believe there are limits on what God will reveal to believers at large--or even to your prophets? Further, are their times when God will offer a revelation to a prophet, but indicate that he not publicize it, because the time is not right?

[prisonchaplain]

Good thing Andrew you have that disclaimer. I was going to have to challenge you on that one.

Perhaps the disclaimer was necessary, but you see the point? Protestants don't get to say, "It's not doctrine. It's not official teaching." We may use historic creeds, and rely on biblical study guides--even theology professors--for insight. However, in the end, it's generally me and my Bible and the Holy Spirit. So, we have to discern individually what is true and what is false. In a sense, our burden is heavier.

But...as Andrew wisely pointed out, there is no system that tells us everything. Every believer, no matter how hierarchical their church, no matter how well-spelled out the organization's system of teaching, must indeed to individual thinking.

[prisonchaplain]

I am perfectly content with not knowing what happens when I die or if there is a God, and I would rather be uncertain than wrong, hence why I am agnostic :)

My difficulty with agnosticism is not that you say you don't know, it's that you say I can't know. If God is unknowable, then, by definition, all people of faith are wrong.

If there really is a God who cared enough to create us, we not only can know him--we ought to know him. It's incredibly sad for me to think that we are just some discarded toy from a deity that left us long ago.

[prisonchaplain]

i should not have to add that disclaimer because certain people should be mature enough not to read more into a statement than what is there

You were ahead, hermano. Don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[prisonchaplain]

why wouldn't God want us to understand basic and sure information about who and what he is?

Because...we can't.

To explain...I can understand the Trinity in these terms:

1. The Father is God.

2. The Son is God.

3. The Holy Spirit is God.

4. Each is a distinct person.

5. There is only one God, one essential Deity.

I understand who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is, who the Father is, how many Gods there are. But, ask me how it works...what's the difference between Jesus and the Father, how are the separate, how are the essentially one...what happened when Jesus (God the Son) died, etc. and I quickly find myself being asked questions "above my paygrade."

Why? Doesn't God want us to understand? Well, how can a two-dimensional creature understand height or depth? How can an infant understand parenthood?

[Hemidakota]

Because...we can't.

To explain...I can understand the Trinity in these terms:

1. The Father is God.

2. The Son is God.

3. The Holy Spirit is God.

4. Each is a distinct person.

5. There is only one God, one essential Deity.

I understand who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is, who the Father is, how many Gods there are. But, ask me how it works...what's the difference between Jesus and the Father, how are the separate, how are the essentially one...what happened when Jesus (God the Son) died, etc. and I quickly find myself being asked questions "above my paygrade."

Why? Doesn't God want us to understand? Well, how can a two-dimensional creature understand height or depth? How can an infant understand parenthood?

If one view them from a mortal state as they really are, a two-dimensional being can easily understand it as to walking versus crawling.

[HiJolly]

I am not sure why you always seem to get so emotional and upset when I simply try to engage you in ( what I think anyway ) are very interesting discussions.

I know why, but if I told you I'd have to .... nevermind.

I am aware that this is an LDS site. I would suggest to you ( I could be wrong, it would not be the first time ) that if your desire is to have only LDS sharing here or only LDS perspectives, WE ALL will have missed a great opportunity to grow. ( Including LDS )

Rather than " pout " back at you, I will simply stand on my offering that the reason you suggest people do not accept the BofM, D&C and Pearl are not the reality.

I agree, ceeboo. Totally.

Some people can't accept them because to do so would require that they accept the doctrine therein. And while I daresay any Christian could easily accept the doctrine of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price are a whole 'nother story.

And even if a Christian CAN accept the doctrine of the Book of Mormon, it then begs the question of whether or not they can accept Joseph as a Prophet, which certainly logically follows acceptance of anything to do with the BoM.

Have you read the Book of Mormon? ...could be dangerous!

HiJolly

[Misshalfway]

You offer powerful thoughts. I'm wondering, though, what the limits are on general revelation to the church universal, vs. personal revelation? There is no doubt that we can spend our lifetimes communing with God, and reach vastly different levels of understanding. However, do you believe there are limits on what God will reveal to believers at large--or even to your prophets? Further, are their times when God will offer a revelation to a prophet, but indicate that he not publicize it, because the time is not right?

My first answer on limits or understanding limits would have to come from the scriptures. In my study, I have seen different circumstances where the Lord says he will reveal and where He says he will not. I just read a passage last night saying that unless the people humble themselves, he will not open up the truth to them. And it is also clear that one can lose the light they have received if they choose sin.

I can say that I know some of the limits God places on revelation. Sin is a limit. Readiness may be another limit. I trust God's wisdom to know what is correct for the time, the people and the circumstance.....and I believe that is true for the individual and the kingdom of God on earth.

It is clear to me, that God has taught his pattern for revealing truth. He doesn't shout it from the heavens for every soul to hear. He calls prophets. He gives them authority and revelation. No one can receive revelation for the church and the world unless they are called to this capacity of prophet, seer and revelator. A pattern since the times of Adam. And this is a pattern that follows with every other responsibility inside the church and at the personal level. Each worthy leader can receive revelation that is sufficient for their sphere of influence or responsibility. IE: the Bishop for his congregation, the parent for the child, the individual for themselves. But the individual cannot and will not receive revelation for the church. That isn't how God works. These are limits and controls God puts on revelation to help keep the word pure and correctly taught.

There have been instances where individuals (who may or may not be prophets) were given knowledge and told not to repeat or share than knowledge with others or with the church until a certain time. And I would guess that there have been some who have been so faithful that God couldn't keep truth from them. I am reminded of another BofM account. His name is the Brother of Jared and his faith was so great that he could not be kept without the veil and was shown first the finger of the Lord and then the Lord revealed himself to this man and ministered unto him. The scriptures say that he "....could not be kept outside the veil." (Ether 3)

I am also reminded of the account of Moses and his interview with the Lord in Moses 1 in the Pearl. It is a wonderful illustration of how a prophet asks questions and the Lord tells and shows what is true thru the Holy Spirit. And then at the end, cautions that this only be shown to the believers.

[prisonchaplain]

I wondered if the vast majority of the world throughout history were destined for Hell and the fairness of that.

Each time, I was given unsatisfactory answers. So I prayed for answers, desperately wanting only to know the truth.

What ambiguity am I comfortable with? I'm comfortable with ambiguity regarding the Saints, regarding the future, regarding God's will for me. But I'm not comfortable with ambiguity that could result in eternal burning for billions. -That- I need to know the truth of.

Charles Taze Russell felt the same way. He couldn't believe in an eternal hell for anyone. Ironcally, in the religion he created only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved, most consigned to manual labor on earth...with the billions of souls rejected damned to annhilation (granted, more merciful than conscious hell...but still).

In typical Protestant/Catholic teaching, those who reject God will go to hell. In LDS theology, it's somewhat more nuanced, and only the Sons of Perdition go there. But really, one soul or a billion--either we can accept an eternal hell or we can't.

I guess I'll answer my own question, and it may help with yours. What I NEED to know is that God is powerful and good. If he's powerful he gets to do what he wills. If he's good, whatever he does will be right.

[bytor2112]

I think Hell will be the realization of eternal separation from the Father and out families.. When we realize what a brief moment in time we spent on earth and how long eternity really is.........

[HiJolly]

I guess I'll answer my own question, and it may help with yours. What I NEED to know is that God is powerful and good. If he's powerful he gets to do what he wills. If he's good, whatever he does will be right.

It's also immensly helpful to know that He loves me.

I always believed He loved me, and so I tried to do the right thing. Then at one point, He showed me that He loves me and everyone else to such an extent that I cannot begin to describe it. But I'll say this, it's BIG! :wub:

HiJolly

[Vanhin]

Further, are their times when God will offer a revelation to a prophet, but indicate that he not publicize it, because the time is not right?

Absolutely. In the Book of Mormon, Nephi sees in vision the last days, and many of the things that would be revealed to John the revelator in the future. I think you will find this interesting.

And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe. And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been. And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.

Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.

And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see. But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.

And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.

And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel. (1 Ne. 14:18-27)

Thank goodness Nephi stopped where he did... (see Rev. 22:18-19)

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited October 9, 2008 by Vanhin
spelling, spelling, spelling....