Gay marriage and public education


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Two. Why?

Without age listed, I making an assumption that they are teachable age. Do you not teach the principle of the gospel to your children? Do they know the difference between what is allowable by GOD and what is not concerning marriage?

You are the one who said that when you asked young children whether they straight or gay, they didn't know.

Ugh, you need post the reference since I just went back to page 10 and didn't find it. If this is referring to counciloring, when ever you hear me refer children, anyone unmarried under the age of 21 is a child from my viewpoint. Hopefully that helps. :D

Again, you are the one who said young children did not know if they were gay or straight, as if that were conclusive that being gay wasn't inborn. In reality, it's not conclusive of anything.

Now, how many of these children under the eight years old that are members know the difference? How many children under the age of four know the difference? How about two-years old? Are they born to be gay? Nor is any homosexual gene is conclusive.

I imagine most of us knew about sex by the age of nine, but had no idea what homosexuality literally meant. To understand that would have meant an in-depth understanding of sexuality that nine-year-olds do not have.

You should tell yourself, the word 'I' vice us. Elpha, you cannot express your viewpoint as the world. As I stated, by the age of nine, [the I word here] I knew already the difference. Culture and lifestory led to it. Seeing this typical statement, is more or less, if I haven't done it or know it, then know one else can do know it.

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If there's one thing about this whole discussion that really irritates me it's the idea that somehow same sex marriage issues equate to interracial marriage issues. Gay=/=Racial minority no matter how often you try to force the metaphor.

If there's one thing that disgusts me it is people who refuse to acknowledge a segment of our population is being treated badly, with the inane excuse that someone else suffered worse.

Tell me, on the "suffering scale," where does someone have to fall in order for them to have your compassion?

By the way, it was the SCOTUS that used the Loving and Brown cases, not me. So, if you have a problem with it, take it up with them.

Homosexuals are not a race unto themselves. To treat them as such is, on some level, a slap in the face for members of minority races who had to struggle (and sometimes still do) to be treated as equals.

Homosexuals are not a race unto themselves, and absolutely no one ever said they were; however they are human beings who, because of who they are, have to struggle not only to be treated as equals, but sometimes for their very lives--simply because they are gay.

And to continue treating them with the contempt all minorities experience is a slap in the face of humanity.

I once worked as an auto tech and the tech in the stall next to me was black. I asked him once how he felt about that little comparison and he said that it annoyed him, because if you're a member of a minority race, say black, there's no hiding it, you are who you are and everyone sees it instantly.

So, because he doesn’t like being compared to a person who is a homosexual, we are supposed to simply ignore the fact that those comparisons are valid and real?

My comments had nothing to do with who has suffered most: blacks or gays. If I had to state who had, my answer would be blacks. But so what?

That does not mean people who are gay haven’t been ostracized, spit on, beaten up, and even murdered. The contempt people feel for homosexuals today is every bit as vile as the contempt many people felt for blacks at one time, and continue to do, to this day.

But once again, so what? What does it matter if blacks have faced worse than homosexuals in our country? Do we only address these atrocities based on who suffered worse?

You can never "turn it off" in order to sit at the front of the bus or use the same facilities as everyone else. Nobody has ever uttered the phrase "I didn't know you were black..."

Yet another "So what?" Do you seriously believe that only people of color are the only ones treated with contempt and disdain?

On the other hand, homosexuals are who they are by choice on some level. Do they choose who they're attracted to? I believe that they don't, in fairness... But how they act on those feelings is completely under their control. Most of the people in my life who are gay told the they were before I had any idea. So while it might be fair to say that being gay isn't a choice, living the gay lifestyle IS.

I completely agree.

That's an utterly different situation from racial prejudice.

No it is not. The bigotry and violence that used to be so common for black people, is the same ignorant bigotry that people spew at homosexuals today.

Frankly, I think even those who use that argument are aware of just how thin it is, but use it anyway because nobody likes to be compared to a racist, and it throws them off.

So, when I compare the suffering that many gay people have experienced to what blacks experienced, it’s because I don’t want to look racist?

Yeah, that’s it.


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Elpha, my beloved sister whom I do adore, I need to back out of this thread for a wise purpose. You know what I am referring too. Thanks for your love and patience.

You adore me? Not as much as I adore you.

I just posted a response to you. Would you like me to delete it?


Edited by Elphaba
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I agree with this - as a child until I was about 11 or 12 I would not have understood the question certainly the gay friends I had as teens started awakening their sexuality and understanding at the same time as myself.


Off topic:

Elgama! It is so good to see you again my friend.


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Do you have any idea how degrading your question is about parents you know nothing about, except that they are gay? Elphaba


Who said I said they were gay? I was asking the question if they were. Why? Because, as you should know, parents almost always teach their children what they believe is right. If gay parents are angry towards people who want to be straight as this child’s family who was beat up was, “chances are” their children will feel the same way and may even act out their hatred. I’m not saying that is the case here but simply asking the question.

The time people stop asking questions and stop asking why we will be intellectually dead. Please, I hope that never happens.

What if the situation were reversed? Let’s say a seven-year-old kid whose parents are gay gets beat up by bullies. Would you then write: “I am curious to know if any children who participated in the assault were from heterosexual couples. . . .”? Of course you wouldn’t.

Of course I wouldn't? Well, since you are putting words in my mouth let me spit them out.

Yes! The same thing could very well happen in heterosexual families as well. The fact is, it has happened. Look at history Elphaba and you will clearly understand that. Where does the term “hiding in the closet” come from? Why are they hiding? In the fifties, sixties, seventies, gays were beat up by straight people. So yes it has happened and could still happen.

I’m not condoning any violence our encouraging anyone to be hateful towards people but we should love the person. But we can still disagree with the lifestyle.

There is no difference between you and a gay person except your sexual orientation.

And I’m sure there would be more than just sexual orientation and religion and philosophy would probably be a good start.

In fact, it is becoming more and more likely that someone in your ward is gay. How would you feel if s/he overheard you talking to someone about gays the way you did in your post?

Yes. I very well know there are gay Mormons and we love them too even if they choose to live that lifestyle, even if they are not Mormon. They are our brothers and sisters in spirit. But we still do not accept that lifestyle. But I very much love and admire them and the courage and strength they have when they “choose” not to act upon that lifestyle. That takes a lot of strength and sacrifice and I truly believe they will be very much blessed for it!


The entire country tolerates heterosexuality as much as it ever did. There are, however, more straight people who have come to understand that gay people are as deserving as you are, to live in a world where they are not treated with hate, violence and disgust.

You spun that one around quite well. What I said was, USED TO BE, meaning in the past, history. You are talking about our present condition, AS IT EVER DID. I was referring to history. See my answer above about why homosexuals hid in the closet. Gays (in the past) were for a period of time not tolerated and were even harmed. Now this story is about a group of kids not tolerating a Straight child or his family’s beliefs and beats him up. It is a contrast I am making. You apparently missed it.

Do you seriously think your child is not going to know what being homosexual means until s/he gets to college?

So your point is that since children are going to know about homosexuality we should teach it in elementary school. Okay. My question is how? Will it be taught as marriage? Will it be taught as acceptable? You see my point? If that’s how it is going to be taught to my grandchildren then I don’t want that because it goes contrary to what they learn in church. So, why not wait until college when they are not so easily influenced?

The problem is we aren’t given a choice how they will be taught in school. I don’t want them indoctrinated in school that a homosexual lifestyle is normal, that it is a marriage and it is acceptable.

Regardless of sexual orientation, people are people.

And people are different. Some are loving and some are hateful. Some are good and some are bad.

They all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. We all need to understand we are no better, and no worse, than ”they” are. We are the same.

It depends on what extreme we take this. Here is an example. Should we have respect and dignity for what Hitler taught and truly believed in, to wipe out all the Jews? And no, I am not comparing homosexuality to the holocaust.

How about another example then? Should we have respect and dignity for the gang of children who beat up another child regardless of their reasons? And was that boy treated the same?

In our religion there is a scripture in D&C 1:31 that says: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.” Is that showing respect and dignity for sin or even for the person who committed it? I don’t think it is. But the Lord still loves them as His sons and daughters anyway as we should too.

But I do believe in following the Lords example about sin not that I and others are perfect. We sin every day but we can sincerely do our best to change our lives each and every day.

Edited by omega0401
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Uh come on Elphaba, the next thing you know there will be some that say that most school shooters go bizerk due to years of being picked on and school administrators not doing anything about it. We all know bad things are caused by listening to Goth and industrial metal bands and watching movies where the hero wears a trenchcoat and fires a gun a lot.:o

Uh Fiannan, do you ever stop, and think, before you open your mouth?

My argument is that if a rogue parent is so adamant he has the right to insist the school accomodate HIS wants, without taking the time to consider how it would affect the community, then why should he expect the teachers to teach his children anything other than reading, writing and math?

If a parent goes bezerk because it is not the school's responsibility to teach the children about diversity, including three innocent pages showing that some families have two daddies or two mommies, which IS true, and with absolutely nothing sexual depicted, then, again, why should the teachers be responsible for making sure his children are safe during ex-curricular activies, such as recess? Isn't that the parent's responsibility?

What about Bubba who intimidates and steals from the other children on the playground? Why is it the teachers' responsibility to curb his behavior and teach him proper respect? Isn't that his parents' responsibility?

Why is the it school's fault when a self-absorbed parent gets angry because the teachers were not right there to protect his to protect his 7-year-old boy from getting beat up by other students? Isn't that his responsibility?

Teachers cannot meet every parents' demand, nor should they have to. But if the parents insist they do, then the parents' should be ready to take on the responsibility of babysitting their own children during recess, lunch, or any other extra-curricular activity. After all, isn't it the parents' responsibility to teach their children manners?

You can't have it both ways. You don't get to tell every teacher how he or she should always accommodate you, because you're the parent, and then expect the teachers to also accommodate you by teaching your little Bubba proper behavior on the schoolyard.

Additionally, you do not have the right to expect the teachers' turn everything upside down just for you, and then expect them to save your little seven-year-old son when he's getting pounded by the bullies. That's your responsibility.

Of course, the teachers would never let this happen, as they are teachers because they care about children, including yours with the big neck.

Uh, get it now Fiannan?


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Ironically, I was riding on the train with a friend who is a biology prof today. I mentioned the idea of homosexuality being genetic and she did a pretty good job refuting the claim from several different biological angles. When I mentioned the idea of certain genes perhaps causing people to be more predisposed to seeking novelty or challenging social norms she seemed to entertain the idea it could be a factor but still thought the literature and the mere concept was counter to biological principles and research.


You are truly an amazing person. You must be some sort of magnet that attracts just the right expert(s) into your life, at just the right time you need her, and who says just the right things you want to hear.

And you think we are so stupid as to believe you.

You did not meet a biology professor today. You said you did to bolster your argument.

Of course, I would never make such a bold statement of anyone if I weren't so certain what I say is true.

But, then, I can't think of another person here who has experts pop in and out of their lives on an as-needed basis.

You may recall when we were discussing curriculum, you claimed you had talked to a number of teachers in Utah who happened to know all about Oregon’s school system, and even more amazing, they all agreed with you.

You made this claim even though it is highly improbable that “a number“ of Utah teachers knew anything about Oregon‘s curriculum. But let’s go with that: How is it possible that all of these Utah teachers claimed they knew about Oregon’s curriculum, but were all wrong?

In Post #90 of this thread, you wrote:

And yeah, I have had detailed discussions with homosexual and bisexual people. . . .

Once again, right on cue, you’ve had “detailed discussions” with the just the right people just when you happen to need them to buttress your comments.

Of course, these are just a few examples of many.

Let me give you some advice: The next time you want to make up so-called experts, try not to claim plural contacts, as in "numerous," and "discussions," etc. That was my first clue that something wasn't kosher.

Unfortunately you’ve cried wolf so often, you could be telling the truth and I wouldn’t believe you if your tongue came notarized.


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If there's one thing that disgusts me it is people who refuse to acknowledge a segment of our population is being treated badly, with the inane excuse that someone else suffered worse.

Before I respond to anything else in your post, you show me where I've EVER asserted that gay people haven't been treated badly, or made an excuse for it by saying some one else sufferd worse.

Because frankly, I've said no such thing. I'm not sure it would be worth my while to respond to you if you're just going to distort what I say.

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He knew he could not hang onto the logic you were giving Elphaba. Well done. I'm proud of you. Homophobia is rampant and needs to cease.

I doubt Hemi is homophobic........not approving of this lifestyle choice or having a bad taste for what one may perceive as an immoral practice is not necesarily homophobia. Homophobia is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality.(Wiki). I think Hemi wanted to avoid an argument or wanted to avoid saying something in anger......feelings run very deep and strong on the issue of homosexuality. People who are not "gay" simply do not understand how or why anyone could be this way. Some see it only as an immoral transgression others see it as freakish and frightening. Not so much what goes on in private between two consenting people, but the seemingly radical thrust to force society to accept homosexuality as normal.Many....not all, think of "gays" as very flamboyant, in your face, gay pride marchers with raging promiscuous hormones ready to attack any and every person of there own sex....and there is a percentage, how large I don't know, that is like that. It is an issue that divides families and causes a lot of pain to all involved. As a Latter Day Saint, I feel that homosexual sex is a sin, just as adultry or fornication. I strive to treat, straight, white, black, short, tall, fat or skinny with kindness. I am not here to force my belief on anyone...if asked I share and I do missionary work by example...I hope and pray that I can be found worthy to return to the presense of my Father in Heaven and I hope everyone else can as well. We all make our own choices in this sometimes aimless things for sure, treating each other with love and kindness would make this world a whole lot better place and lead us so much closer to home.

Again the words of one of my fav hymns:

As I have loved you,

Love one another.

This new commandment:

Love one another.

By this shall men know

Ye are my disciples,

If ye have love

One to another.

Edited by bytor2112
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