Founding Fathers = Christian men?

[Aesa]

Skahlenfel (spelling? cant bb checking) said:

Aesa, respectfully, whether is the membership, the church or the prophet, we are all following the Lord. We are worshiping God according to our conscience as guaranteed by the constitution of the United States, which was founded by God worshiping men who founded this country in order to worship God freely. It is our right to donate as much money as we wish and to follow our prophet and our God.

Rather than waste my time researching and writing my own article on this:

Religion

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Episcopalian, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. However, notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists, including Franklin, Jefferson, and Ethan Allen.[11]

Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in Samuel Adams, John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney.

Jefferson in particular changed his views of many aspects of contemporary Christianity, writing in a March 13, 1789 letter to Francis Hopkinson "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free will and moral agent."

In correspondence with John Adams, Jefferson wrote that "The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."[citation needed] In yet another letter, to José Correia da Serra, dated April 11, 1820, Jefferson wrote that: "Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."[12]

Though these previous quotes seem harsh he obviously had grown to undersand the greater truths of the Bible; obvious in the folowing quotes. "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."Quote 64

"The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."Quote 65

"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."Quote 66

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."Quote 67

64. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383, to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse on June 26, 1822. (Return)

65. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Alberty Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XII, p. 315, to James Fishback, September 27, 1809. (Return)

66. Thomas Jefferson, Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, editor (Boston: Grey & Bowen, 1830), Vol. III, p. 506, to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803. (Return)

67. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIV, p. 385, to Charles Thomson on January 9, 1816. (Return)

By the end of his life, Jefferson acknowledged that the pure doctrines of Jesus Christ were not found in any of the established religions of his day, but he speculated that the religious liberties he helped to establish would facillitate the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In a letter to Harvard Professor Jared Sparks in 1820, Jefferson wrote: "Thinking men of all nations rallied readily to the doctrine of one only God, and embraced it with the pure morals which Jesus inculcated. If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, truth will prevail over fanaticism, and the genuine doctrines of Jesus, so long perverted by his pseudo-priests, will again be RESTORED to their original purity. This reformation will advance with the other improvements of the human mind, but too late for me to witness it." [13]

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[skalenfehl]

From that page:

The Founding Fathers of the United States are the political leaders who signed the Declaration of Independence or otherwise participated in the American Revolution as leaders of the Patriots, or who participated in drafting the United States Constitution eleven years later.

The article that you quickly copied and pasted without presenting a case... I guess it's really not worth wasting your time to research it. I'm not sure what kind of case you're trying to present with this hit and run, but from glancing at it many of them if not most were clearly Christian.

[Misshalfway]

Skahlenfel (spelling? cant bb checking) said:

Rather than waste my time researching and writing my own article on this:

Religion

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Episcopalian, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. However, notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists, including Franklin, Jefferson, and Ethan Allen.[11]

Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in Samuel Adams, John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney.

Jefferson in particular changed his views of many aspects of contemporary Christianity, writing in a March 13, 1789 letter to Francis Hopkinson "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free will and moral agent."

In correspondence with John Adams, Jefferson wrote that "The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."[citation needed] In yet another letter, to José Correia da Serra, dated April 11, 1820, Jefferson wrote that: "Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."[12]

Though these previous quotes seem harsh he obviously had grown to undersand the greater truths of the Bible; obvious in the folowing quotes. "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."Quote 64

"The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."Quote 65

"I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."Quote 66

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."Quote 67

64. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383, to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse on June 26, 1822. (Return)

65. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Alberty Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XII, p. 315, to James Fishback, September 27, 1809. (Return)

66. Thomas Jefferson, Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, editor (Boston: Grey & Bowen, 1830), Vol. III, p. 506, to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803. (Return)

67. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIV, p. 385, to Charles Thomson on January 9, 1816. (Return)

By the end of his life, Jefferson acknowledged that the pure doctrines of Jesus Christ were not found in any of the established religions of his day, but he speculated that the religious liberties he helped to establish would facillitate the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In a letter to Harvard Professor Jared Sparks in 1820, Jefferson wrote: "Thinking men of all nations rallied readily to the doctrine of one only God, and embraced it with the pure morals which Jesus inculcated. If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, truth will prevail over fanaticism, and the genuine doctrines of Jesus, so long perverted by his pseudo-priests, will again be RESTORED to their original purity. This reformation will advance with the other improvements of the human mind, but too late for me to witness it." [13]

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aesa, what is exactly is your point by adding this quote?

And this last bit I highlighted in red is a pretty amazing quote.

[prisonchaplain]

Let me translate all that: The "Judeo-Christian heritage" of the United States is not the right-wing Republican evangelical Christianity touted by many who banty this term.

My answer: Perhaps. Nevertheless, the overwhelming heritage of this country, and it's founding documents and principles was Christian. If Jefferson was anti-clerical and a Deist, he nevertheless enshrined in our documents the notion that freedoms are inherent in God's creation.

No, we want no official state religion, denomination or creed. Nevertheless, it is revisionist history at best to deny the underlying and pervasive Christian influence on this country. We remain a country in which 85% claim Christian belief.

IMHO, so much of the opposition of the secular left against the so-called theocracy of the religious right is really a basic denial of heavy influence Christianity continues to have. To try to counteract this reality is a democratic right. However, to pretend it doesn't exist and is unConstitutional is just delusional.

[skalenfehl]

Allow me to quote one of the founding fathers listed in your mass of words:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."--John Adams

What does this mean? It means that God was their moral compass. Without a moral compass, what becomes the guiding force for man of right and wrong? Without a singular authority on truth in everyone's lives, it is no wonder we are a nation becoming increasingly divisive.

[Aesa]

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."--John Adams

But that doesn't mean they were reffering to the Christian god.

They were reffering more likely, especially in John Adams case to his Deist god who has no involvement in human affairs but rather set off creation and then sat back.

The reason why I simply copied and pasted from a Wiki article is because it's easier and time isn't willing for me to get out, say, Dawkins and quote his work or some other highly regarded intellectual.

[abqfriend]

Here are two parts of the Declaration of Independence-near the beginning and end:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. .......

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

-Carol

[Aesa]

That's lovely. But it doesn't specify any religion, it's open to the interpretation of any spiritual belief in any divine being.

Which means constitutionally those inaleinable rights can be different depending on the doctrines of one's religion.

[Starfish]

But that doesn't mean they were reffering to the Christian god.

They were reffering more likely, especially in John Adams case to his Deist god who has no involvement in human affairs but rather set off creation and then sat back.

The reason why I simply copied and pasted from a Wiki article is because it's easier and time isn't willing for me to get out, say, Dawkins and quote his work or some other highly regarded intellectual.

I've heard this many times, from those denying the Christianity of our founding fathers. At best, they say, they were Deists.

Exactly. God DID create this world, and He DID step back for a time--the Apostasy. The frustration those men felt was likely due to the fact that the true religion wasn't here.

There are so many quotes by the FF's that state their Christianity. I could post them, but they're easy to look up.

[Misshalfway]

But that doesn't mean they were reffering to the Christian god.

They were reffering more likely, especially in John Adams case to his Deist god who has no involvement in human affairs but rather set off creation and then sat back.

The reason why I simply copied and pasted from a Wiki article is because it's easier and time isn't willing for me to get out, say, Dawkins and quote his work or some other highly regarded intellectual.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but wasn't your point that American constitution wasn't based in religion?

I just found it interesting that you chose this quote. It seems to go against what I thought you were trying to say.

I think what is more important than the personal beliefs of the founding fathers was their united belief in a God and their belief in religious freedom.

I think that because of this that there is a place for religion in America and even in American politics.

[Aesa]

There are so many quotes by the FF's that state their Christianity. I could post them, but they're easy to look up.

I personally challenge you to, because when speaking of the more prominent founding fathers, the quotes are very deceptive and not reffering to them being Christian at all.

Exactly. God DID create this world, and He DID step back for a time--the Apostasy. The frustration those men felt was likely due to the fact that the true religion wasn't here.

This is an awfully shaky excuse. It implies that God created the world, and then stepped back for 6,000ish years, or millions, depending on which time frame you go by.

I think that because of this that there is a place for religion in America and even in American politics.

It's interesting to note that "one nation under god" is a new thing, really, I was shocked.

Um, who specifically are you reffering to? Just about all of the corporate and political elite go to Bohemian Grove, and it's been well uncovered the pagan rituals about not having a conscience that go on there. The Grove has admitted it themselves.

[skalenfehl]

Sorry bud, the burden of proof is on your shoulders, especially considering your copy and paste/hit and run tactic.

[Aesa]

Since that is the case I then direct you to this website: Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

And there are plenty others you could look at.

Online, the burden of proof is in the interested parties in cases like this, for truth is not told, it is realised.

[Starfish]

I don't mind posting these. I've had this conversation online many times. Don't you hate long posts? Sorry.

John Adams and John Hancock:

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”

–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |

.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!

Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?

--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”

John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:

(1) Christianity

(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.

"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:

"Orator of the Revolution."

• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”

—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

Thomas Jefferson“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

Quotes of the Founders : Founding Fathers quotes on religion, faith, Christianity

[Aesa]

I honestly disregard these until I see an intellectual or someone of educational character (not to impune you) saying them.

All I need do is pull out the God Delusion and plonk a bunch of quotes.

Take into consideration the fact that I took my original post straight from Wikipedia, generally considered a neutral source. Since that section of the article had no "question of neturality" notices on it, one can consider it as sound.

I love the arguement "anyone who believes in Christ is a Christian..." you see it is by their actions we know they were not Christian. For example some who were following the Masonic "way," and others who in a private letter will state the bible is unreliable and then to some commoners state that Jesus is Lord. Satan believes in Christ too, and he is not a Christian.

[Starfish]

Okay, I'm stepping out of this thread. The evidence is sufficient.

[Aesa]

No it isn't, you've just thrown rubbish quotes at me from a source which thinks being republican is all about being "country/religion first."

FAIL.

[Guest ceeboo]

I honestly disregard these until I see an intellectual or someone of educational character (not to impune you) saying them.

Well Hello Aesa, :)

Very nice to meet you, indeed.

I am not very intellectual nor do I have much educational character, BUT I am Catholic and make great banana bread. Will that do ???

If I may, I would suggest that if you desire to engage us Christians in a conversation that will have mutual benefit for ALL, you might want to use a slightly different approach.

Just a thought, hope I came across as I intended :)

God bless,

Ceeboo

[john doe]

I honestly disregard these until I see an intellectual or someone of educational character (not to impune you) saying them.

All I need do is pull out the God Delusion and plonk a bunch of quotes.

Take into consideration the fact that I took my original post straight from Wikipedia, generally considered a neutral source. Since that section of the article had no "question of neturality" notices on it, one can consider it as sound.

I love the arguement "anyone who believes in Christ is a Christian..." you see it is by their actions we know they were not Christian. For example some who were following the Masonic "way," and others who in a private letter will state the bible is unreliable and then to some commoners state that Jesus is Lord. Satan believes in Christ too, and he is not a Christian.

Oh, and are you an intellectual or someone of educational character? Why don't you prove it by presenting your credentials? And wikipedia is certainly not an authoritative source for anything, it's not even allowed as a source in school reports. Funny how you want to hold those who disagree with you to a higher standard than the one you have set for yourself.

[Aesa]

(not to impune you)

I meant that in a sense of "neither of us are intellectually 'recognised'..."

However, at least I was quoting from one.

it's not even allowed as a source in school reports.

It is here.

Also my original post mentions a person who researched strongly the founding fathers.

[john doe]

(not to impune you)

I meant that in a sense of "neither of us are intellectually 'recognised'..."

However, at least I was quoting from one.

It is here.

Also my original post mentions a person who researched strongly the founding fathers.

Yeah, and I mentioned a poet laureate once, but it didn't actually make me one. Your source is suspect, yet you won't accept the ones given to you. Let's call it a draw before you get asked to take a break.

[a-train]

So Aesa,

What are you saying? We understand that the Framers were skeptic disbelievers concerning priestly activities, miracles, revelations, prophecies, and so forth. They used reason to conclude the will of God in nature and among men. Some honored Jesus and some did not.

What are you trying to say here? To the LDS, this is celebrated. The LDS believe that the Framers were indeed surrounded by a fallen and lost religious world: one filled with misconceptions and falsehoods. We share their skepticism and honor their ability to demonstrate their faith while maintaining a seperation of Church and State.

We further recognize the natural human right to worship Allah, Krishna, Jesus of Nazareth, Jehovah, Ra, or whatever diety the individual may believe in. Further, for those whose life paradigm does not include any Supreme Being and whose ambition in life does not include any imitation of any divine characteristics of any diety, they are under no compulsion to engage in any worship or profession of religion.

We acknowledge the self-evident natural rights of man as presented by the Framers. Be they the bestowal of the Christian God or the Big Bang, they are regardless in place and immovable by any effort on the part of society. Certainly we believe their origin is in God Almighty and that through Jesus Christ, but we also acknowledge that the individual is under no obligation from society to profess it. In fact, among those rights is the freedom of conscience, the freedom of religion, and to deny that right is to indeed deny God.

-a-train

Edited November 10, 2008 by a-train

[Kyra]

I have a lot of feelings and arguments about this, but it seems like you're just looking for an argument and I'm not going to give you the satisfaction.

I am going to say this though: I KNOW that our founding fathers were religious, Christian men. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind of this. You can post whatever you want, but over the years people have done whatever they can to drag these men's names through the mud. If you read old history books they will tell you the truth about these great men. It's only been in the last century that people seem intent on forcing others to believe that these men don't deserve our respect for one reason or another.

People can show you all the proof in the world, but you won't believe any of it because for some reason you don't want to. And I just have to know, why in the world do you care so much? Why are you so intesnt on tearing down our beliefs?

[Aesa]

What are you saying?

In essence and in total honestly, what I mean to say is this: it's not fair to call the founding fathers Christian, and it's not fair to call them non-Christian either. There's a balance. They sought balance, but unfortunately they have not got it.

I am going to say this though: I KNOW that our founding fathers were religious, Christian men. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind of this.

This is kind of akin to saying George Bush is a Christian, which he clearly is not. You don't know, you're using faith. There -were- Christian men among them, but it was more of an even balance of deists and Christians because Deism was the version of atheism that was around in those days and a popular choice for intellectuals.

Rather than just disregarding what someone says to you because you "know" different ... seek, and ye will find.

[Kyra]

Rather than just disregarding what someone says to you because you "know" different ... seek, and ye will find.

No offense, but I think the same could be said of you. The only difference is that you seek for something that will confirm what you already believe instead of opening your heart and letting the spirit speak the truth to you. And how do you know that it's not something I've researched? I've read quite a bit about our founding fathers which is how I gained a testimony of their Christianity. I did seek and that is what I found.

You never did answer my question though, why do you care so much? And I'm not asking that in a rude way, I really want to know why you're so concerned about this.