Founding Fathers = Christian men?

[Aesa]

Because people use it as an example for how America should be run.

Obviously you've read biased books.

Richard Dawkins, for example, is not biased towards making them not look Christian -- he, a highly regarded intellectual, just used them as an example.

If you used the founding fathers for a testimony of Christ, then I feel sad for you because once it falls then I assume there's nothing.

Why trust some silly old immoral chaps you've never met and probably never will since they didn't have the benefits of Mormonism?

What you're missing is that I don't need an answer "my way." The founding fathers being Christian would not affect me at all, they're just men who elevated themselves to positions of social control. I just cannot stand seeing people say things about them which are not for the most part honest.

[Kyra]

If you used the founding fathers for a testimony of Christ, then I feel sad for you because once it falls then I assume there's nothing.

Why trust some silly old immoral chaps you've never met and probably never will since they didn't have the benefits of Mormonism?

I'm not going to try and get my point across to you anymore because at this point it becomes nothing but argument from me, and that's not what I want to do. You're going to believe what you want and I am too.

I need to defend myself though. I never said that I used them for my testimony of Christ. I can't rely on others for my testimony, I know that.

This next part is for those who believe in their Christianity. I was taught this from the time I was little, but it's surprising how many people don't know that the founding fathers visited Wilford Woodruff and asked him to do their temple work. I guess it is also for you Aesa, because since this happened they did have the benefits of Mormonism.

In 1877 the Founding Fathers appeared in vision to Elder Wilford Woodruff, president of the St. George Temple at the time and one of the Twelve Apostles, and desired their temple work to be done for them:

Before I left St. George, the spirits of the [Founding Fathers] gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, “You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.” These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights. . . . I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others.[6]

In the April 1898 General Conference, President Woodruff recalled this sacred experience:

Those men who laid the foundation of this American government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. . . .

Everyone of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them

P.S. I know that sometimes I can come across harsher than I mean to, and I think I might have in my previous posts. I'm not getting upset or trying to argue with you, for me this is just an interesting discussion. You'll believe what you will and so will I. You can't change my mind and it appears I can't change yours, so I won't try. :)

[Aesa]

P.S. I know that sometimes I can come across harsher than I mean to, and I think I might have in my previous posts. I'm not getting upset or trying to argue with you, for me this is just an interesting discussion. You'll believe what you will and so will I. You can't change my mind and it appears I can't change yours, so I won't try.

I'm guilty of the same tone. My online tone can be and is terrible at times.

The fact remains that many of them were simply not true Christians by either the historical sense of the word or the Mormon sense.

However, there surely were Christians among them.

Diversity, is what was present.

[a-train]

I will quickly agree that designating a man a "Christian" is in truth a right only of his own. That said, the real issue at hand with respect to the Framers is those principles upon which they did the framing. It has been said that these principles are Christian and indeed they are. However, inasmuch as these same principles are found in Islam or Judaism, or Mormonism, or Catholicism, (and a great many are) they can also be so designated.

-a-train

Edited November 10, 2008 by a-train

[skalenfehl]

Aesa, you presented your argument by quoting me. I said that our founding fathers worshiped God. God is someone different to everyone, whether Christian, Muslim, etc. Your argument is that not all of the founding fathers were Christian, but my point is based on what John Adams said as I quoted previously.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."--John Adams

Our constitution, as drafted by our founding fathers, guarantees us the right to worship our God according to our conscience whether we are Christian Americans, Muslim Americans, Jewish Americans, and so forth. This is the bottom line and we reserve the right as Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Muslims, etc, to defend our constitutional right to preserve our faiths, our religions and places of worship. I don't see how I can distill it any further.

[NeuroTypical]

Just as some ancilliary documentation, I present various portions of the guiding documents of all 50 states. It doesn't really address Aesa's claim that you can mention deity all day long and not be a Christian, but I figured some folks might find all these interesting.

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution .

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ..

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences .

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty . establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance . establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings .

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings . establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine . acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe . in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction .

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom .. establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ... establish this Constitution ..

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution

..

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. establish this Constitution

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution

..

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those .

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common .

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty .. establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ... establish this

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution ..

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man

..

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .. can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other ..

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ..

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia . reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God

..

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties . establish this Constitution ..

[skalenfehl]

Here's another interesting fact about our Washington Monument:

snopes.com: Laus Deo and Washington Monument

Laus Deo! Am I the only one who finds it interesting that the inscription on the aluminum cap faces east?

[threepercent]

"The Bible of the American Revolution"

As long as the United States remained under British rule, the British government forbade the printing of Bibles in America. When the Colonies declared their independence, the importation of Bibles became restricted and by 1777 there was a severe shortage of Bibles in America. On September 11, 1777, this shortage of Bibles was brought to the attention of the Continental Congress by its chaplain, Dr. Patrick Allison. He said in his report that Bibles were urgently needed because, “the use of the Bible is so universal and its importance so great” and on Dr. Allison’s advice, Congress passed a resolution to make every attempt to import 20,000 Bibles in English “from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere, into the different parts of the Union.” The importation of Bibles soon proved to be nearly impossible and the Continental Congress had to search for another alternative to supply the population with their most important book.

On January 21, 1781, the noted colonial printer Robert Aitken petitioned Congress for both sanction and support for the production of a complete Bible for the American people and a committee was immediately formed to determine if Aitken were qualified to produce a book of such significance. Aitken’s impressive credentials (he had, among other things, been the publisher of the Journals of Congress for the first Congress and published numerous articles by Thomas Paine) convinced the committee and on September 10, 1782, a Congressional Resolution was adopted granting Aitken permission and financial support for the printing of the first edition of the first American Bible.

so much for the "could be any god" theory

[DigitalShadow]

The founders of this country are long dead. People can post carefully mined quotes and research back and forth all day about how the founding fathers agree more with their particular theology (I've seen it in other forums), but the facts are that they founded a nation where people are free to practice whatever religion they choose and where people are free from the opression of any particular religion. Does it really matter how many of them were "Christian" and to what extent?

[applepansy]

Why trust some silly old immoral chaps you've never met and probably never will since they didn't have the benefits of Mormonism?

I'm offended by your assumption. John Adams was respected and revered for his loyalty to Abigail. This is well documented including in the book by McCullough.

applepansy

Edited November 11, 2008 by applepansy