What about Jesus?

[Guest ceeboo]

Yeah I know what your saying. But thats assuming the only way to prove someone ever existed is if they are still living and breathing and you can shake their hand today. Theres photos and ... well this is ridiculous. The difference between Abe Lincoln and Jesus is there is proof Mr Lincoln existed....And I'm not talking about feeling it in your heart and knowing without a doubt he existed.

Hi japacific,

This " history " has nothing to do with a " feeling it in your heart ". There are countless writtings ( many who were not believers that Jesus was the Son of God ) that he ( Jesus ) not only existed but indeed that he claimed to be the Lord. Many of those who were eye witnesses as well as " Jewish historians " did not believe what he taught but did in fact record it.

Peace,

Carl

Edited November 17, 2008 by ceeboo

[japacific]

Hi japacific,

This " history " has nothing to do with a " feeling it in your heart ". There are countless writtings ( many who were not believers that Jesus was the Son of God ) that he ( Jesus ) not only existed but indeed that he claimed to be the Lord. Many of those who were eye witnesses as well as " Jewish historians " did not believe what he taught but did in fact record it.

Peace,

Carl

Well I'm wrong about alot of things, so I could be wrong about this too. I was under the impression that there is no evidence he existed. You said there are writings from eye-witnesses. I've never heard that, but if there is or there isn't, it doesn't matter much to me. I said in the first place that I personally think that he was a real person. I would love to see references of those eye witness accounts if you are able to find them for me. I'm just about to go to bed though because its 1.30 in the morning down here in Australia. Thanks for the chat you guys.

[Guest ceeboo]

Well I'm wrong about alot of things, so I could be wrong about this too. I was under the impression that there is no evidence he existed. You said there are writings from eye-witnesses. I've never heard that, but if there is or there isn't, it doesn't matter much to me. I said in the first place that I personally think that he was a real person. I would love to see references of those eye witness accounts if you are able to find them for me. I'm just about to go to bed though because its 1.30 in the morning down here in Australia. Thanks for the chat you guys.

You are welcome for the chat !!!!

Good night my Australian friend :)

Don't forget to say your prayers :):)

Peace,

Carl

[Hemidakota]

Oz doesn't exist....it is mere fiction. I haven't seen it.

[japacific]

So Christ is real but Australia is not?...

[pam]

Oz doesn't exist....it is mere fiction. I haven't seen it.

But I saw OZ on tv so it has to be real. They had a wizard and munchkins and everything was green.

[pam]

So Christ is real but Australia is not?...

He was joking Jap. Since the the issue was that there is no "proof" that Christ existed and he hasn't been to Australia and seen it himself..then it must not exist.

[declanr]

His assumption is based on someone else’s work and did not seeked the Godhead for any real determination what is truth and what is fiction. That itself is poor research and revealing his own weakness of the scriptures. I assumed, he is a total believer of the fable stories of evolution. Even our early earth history about cavemen, and probably believes admissions of Astro physicists on how this planet was formed also and the Big Bang Theory. I wonder he research his own beliefs to determine whether they are fictional or not? You find, even I won’t side with worldly science or claimed clerics of theology. I rather go to the source to find that answer. Yes! It does take much more than regular faith in receiving that answer. Not many here will use this approach; this is why I never worry about those who claimed to be followers of Christ and at the same time, trying to disapprove the Master’s own church. Unless one does walk with GOD or HIS Son, called by Him to be His friends, you can assume, these people are working under there own admissions and not the Savior. Declar, we have them on this forum.

So basically you are saying any research is poor if one does not "seek the godhead" ..pray, etc.? This brings me back to my earlier point, millions of people DO seek god, just not the christian god, and have just as strong a faith, and they still have the same evidential problems.

Fable stories of evolution? Are you aware that the debate among scientists is over concerning evolution? There are millions of pieces of corroborating evidence for evolution, not one against, yet you are quick to call it a fable when you believe a book thrown together from many 300+ years after events happened, by anonymous authors, translated and edited multiple times? It is incredible to me that your powers of reason are so lacking and bias toward your blind faith.

Let us stop and reason here for a second. If I believe that Joseph Smith truly was that Prophet called by the Savior Himself, then I would believe his corrections to the biblical scriptures are precise also. One faithful belief follows the other. If those accounts were not true, being His prophet, he would have removed them or talked about them as being inaccurate and fictional. However, he didn’t. That itself is a self-admission, the biblical account are not fictional and noting Joseph own first vision of the Savior, proving there truly is a Godhead and a Savior. Joseph witnessed not just the Savior, Holy Ghost, GOD the FATHER, but most of the fictional characters that Jim listed in his writings. The difference between Joseph and Jim, Joseph asked and received the answers. Jim, on the other hand, assumes those with a academic printed form called a degree in theology, overrides a prophet without a witness. So, what is hearsay, assumption of clerics or witness for yourself? This is up to you to choose that path at the crossroad.

This is poor reasoning, and demonstrates no evidence at all, it appears from reading history Josephs character and reliability are somewhat questionable. You are making a great assumption in claiming the Joseph saw or heard anything, again, no evidence. What about all the other prophets in the all the other religions who claim visions?

Delcar, we have those claimed theologist in the church that will put Job, as a fictional character. Next line, they will state, they are followers of Christ and Joseph Smith. What they failed to realize, in the Doctrine and Covenants, if Job was a fictional character, why would the Lord talk about Job? This disturbs me with those in our own academia who themselves’ lack the ability to research and ask the Savior, that follows the same guideline as Jim character. As you see, we have them on both sides of the fence.

The best place to start, to find the answers for this claimed fables or Jim’s claimed fictional accounts, is to read the materials for yourself. Next, you will need a sincere desire to ask the same question as Paul of Taurus, Joseph Smith, and even I have done before GOD. It will only come by changing one character to be in conformance of the Master life. It will not come if you precede the same path as the world. You will not receive an answer as Paul or Joseph did. It will take patience and some personal trials before receiving that answer. But, I will attest, it will come and when it does, the Holy Ghost will bear witness that you will not deny. It will come a moment when you least expect it and know, it is His own voice that will call you by name. What better reward in this world could you ask for then in hearing the Master voice as Paul and Joseph did? As Moses did…As Abraham did….As Enoch did….As Noah did…each one was called by the Savior to be His friends. You can, I promise you, receive the same if the desire is one who is seeked the truth.

I understand what you are telling me, and I have read the bible, part of the book of Mormon, and numerous other religious texts. Why do you not subscribe to the five pillars of Islam? Have you read and prayed about them sincerely? Have you prayed 5 times a day and lived by the laws of Islam to find out for yourself? I can go on and on just as you did but for pages and pages of other examples asking you to do the same method of "research" for all of the other religions.

Is there more objective evidence for the bible and the book of mormon being true than for the Torah, the Quran, the Vedic Scriptures, The Tao Te Ching?

Thanks for the reply,

Dec

[KristofferUmfrey]

I can rule out Islam because it declares Jesus is not the Son of God, problem solved.

The Vedas and the Tao can be seen more as philosophical texts and I have no problem with them in their historical context because they are most likely remnants of ancient truths finally written down after generations of verbal transference (which is why I can't accept them as scripture).

The Torah IS in the Bible (or did you forget that?), so I do accept it as true and as authoritative scripture.

[Guest DeborahC]

My goodness!

I just can't read all of this.

Just looking at it makes my head hurt? ::crying::

[Moksha]

Declanr, perhaps these excellent words from the Buddha in the Kamala Sutta about how to know what to accept may help you:

(The criterion for acceptance)

10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.

And for nearly every faith tradition, abiding in them involves a leap of faith. For myself, that leap has been worthwhile.

:)

[declanr]

I can rule out Islam because it declares Jesus is not the Son of God, problem solved.

scripture.

And Islam rules you out because of that fact. This is my point....

[abqfriend]

You do good research Dec. I have read some of the Holy Qur'an myself and am familiar with several of the Surah's. (In English- Surah means Degree or Step)

The First- Al Fatihah- is the shortest as you know-and each one gets progressively longer in length. Surah 1:6 -asks the reader to be shown the straight path or straight way.

Some of the Surah's after that read much like the Old Testament especially the Torah.

Other parts read like much of what we call the New Testament.

The Prophet Muhammed thought of Jesus as a great prophet. He was told that. Islam teaches that Muhammad was the last prophet.

Surah 2:2 Al Baqarah (The heifer) talks about those who fear Allah (or God in our understanding)

Much of the Holy Qur'an is about fear of Allah and following Allah by doing certain things-and you mention the 5 Pillars of Islam as a prime example. Works of Charity is one of the 5 Pillars. The Hajhe or Pilgrimage is another.

One thing you will find largely missing from the Holy Qur'an is the word "Love" You will not find this word nearly as much mentioned in the Old Testament as the New Testament either considering the size of each.

The Holy Qur'an reads much like the Old Testament.

It also has much good to say about "The People of the Book-or the Jews.

Like every religious tradition-Islam believes they have the truth.

There is indeed much Truth found there.

I complement on your research. Research is good-you are searching-that is good.

Ultimately Religion is based on faith. You will find no final answer in your reading of the Holy Qur'an, The Bible, and other Sacred Texts of different faith traditions.

You will find some Truth in each.

So-What do you do?

Ultimately as I said-anyone's spirituality or religion is based on Faith.

What you find more of in the Bible-and especially the New Testament is the Word Love.

As Christians-that is what it is ultimately all about.

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is Love.

Jesus said he is The Way. He indeed wishes us to keep on the Straight path-and shows us how.

The Holy Qur'an said much good about Jesus as a great prophet and about his mother Mary too-but what you find more of in the New Testament than the Surah's of the Holy Qur'an is Love as expressed in the New Testament-and expressed most fully in Jesus.

I cannot tell you which direction to go-but you are on the right track.

Keep reading-and if you wish- Pray or meditate in what you have read.

May God bless you in your search and may you find peace.

Carol

So basically you are saying any research is poor if one does not "seek the godhead" ..pray, etc.? This brings me back to my earlier point, millions of people DO seek god, just not the christian god, and have just as strong a faith, and they still have the same evidential problems.

Is there more objective evidence for the bible and the book of mormon being true than for the Torah, the Quran, the Vedic Scriptures, The Tao Te Ching?

Thanks for the reply,

Dec

[japacific]

How do you convince a Christian or any serious religionist that they are wrong? The only words they trust are the words written in their own scriptures or said by their own leaders. Their proof that God exists is that "God told me himself". Yet if a member of another religion makes a similar claim, that their God spoke to them and told them he's the true God, then they immediately reject the claim thinking the person is delusional or has been deceived. Don't you think its ironical? Or hypocritical? Don't you think believing and following the words of your religion's leaders and rejecting anything contrary is biased?

[declanr]

How do you convince a Christian or any serious religionist that they are wrong? The only words they trust are the words written in their own scriptures or said by their own leaders. Their proof that God exists is that "God told me himself". Yet if a member of another religion makes a similar claim, that their God spoke to them and told them he's the true God, then they immediately reject the claim thinking the person is delusional or has been deceived. Don't you think its ironical? Or hypocritical? Don't you think believing and following the words of your religion's leaders and rejecting anything contrary is biased?

Exactly. It is very ironic and hypocritical. Personally the more research I do, the more I feel that there could be a God (I hope so), but that no one religion owns the truth, or has the elite "gospel" or doctrine.

Statistically religion is a function of geography. Where you are born most likely determines what you define and believe in as "truth". This should say much to any intelligent person, and should signal their need to evaluate things more objectively and less blindly, unfortunately, many people are not capable or intelligent enough for this type of circumspection.

Dec

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

The best evidence for the existence of Christ is the spread of Christianity itself. (Hold on I have to go grab a couple of books, I'm currently taking Western Civilization, Introduction to World Religions, and a couple of other courses and all the text books are new. Plus I always like to look back on my Will Durant 'History of Civilization' series)

Okay, found it.

The Story of Civilization III. Entitled 'Caeser and Christ' by Will Durant. Chapter XXVI 'Jesus'. Page 553

(I'm not going to print out the whole thing, just give a readers digest of a couple things)

Although there have been skeptics from all times and places the movement to prove the historicity of Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph) started in the mid 18th century in French and German philosophical circles. Even then there was much contention as some said that while Jesus existed, his miracles did not. Some said that the miracles and Christ existed, but there were rational explinations. Others said there was never any christ at all and the Jesus was a myth constructed of various Jewish, Greek and Roman theologies.

Okay, here are some references to the historicity of Christ. You have Josephus' 'Antiquites of the Jews':

At the time lived, Jesus, a holy man, if man he may be called, for he performed wonderful works, and taught men, and joyfully recieved the truth. And he was followed by many Jews and many Greeks. He was the Messiah.

There may have once been a genuine core in these lines; but the high praise given to Christ by a Jew uniformly anxious to please either the Romans or the Jew - both in conflict with Christianity at the time - makes the passage suspect.

There are references to a 'Yeshu'a of Nazareth' in the Talmud, but they are too late in date to be more than counterechoes of Christian thought.

------------------

I'm going to summarize my point here: As I'm getting tired and this is a lot of reading between different books:

Already in 64 AD we read from Tacitus Nero's persecution of the 'Chrestiani' in Rome, and wrote of them as already numbering adherents throughout the Empire; the writing is so Tacitean in style, force, and prejudice (I have to agree, having started the 'Annals of Imperial Rome') that all critics agree on it authenticity. Seutonius (125 AD) mentions the same persecution, and reports Claudius' banishment (ca 52 AD) of 'Jews who, stirred up by Christ, were casuing public disturbances,'. This passage accords well with the Acts of the Apostles, which mentions a decree of Claudius that 'The Jews should leave Rome'.

What does this half to do with anything? These references prove the existence of Christians rather than of Christ. However, unless we assume the lattter we are driven to the improbable hypothesis that Jesus was invented in one generation; moreover, we must suppose that the Christian community in Rome had been established some years before 52 AD to merit the attention of an imperial decree.

About the middle of the first century, a pagan named Thallus argued that the abnormal darkness alleged to have accompanied the death of Christ was purely natural phenomenon and coincidence; the arguement took the existence of Christ for granted. The denial of his existence seems never to have occured to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.

The Christian evidence for Christ begins with letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating AD 64, are more universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had know Christ in the flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the crucifixion.

'In summary, it is clear that there are many contradictions between one gospel and another, many dubious statements of history, many suspicious resemblances to the legends told of pagan gods, many incidents apparently designed to prove the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies, may passages possibly aiming to establish a historical basis for some later doctrine or ritual of the Church. The evangelists shared with Cicero, Sallust, and Tacitus the conception of history as a vehicle for moral ideas. And presumably the conversations and speeches reported in the Gospels were subject to the frailties of illiterate memories, and the errors or emendations of copyists.'

'All this granted, much remains. The contradictions are of minutiae, not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ. In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the High Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient wrothies -eg, Hammurabi, David, Socrates- would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed- the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus' arrest, Peter's denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ignorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. That a few simple men should in one genereation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.'

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

I'm done for the night. Too much typing.

I can claim little of this as my own. I merely found a good author, who in telling of our earth's grand story, found time to tell us of one of it's greatest religions.

[Hemidakota]

So basically you are saying any research is poor if one does not "seek the godhead" ..pray, etc.? This brings me back to my earlier point, millions of people DO seek god, just not the christian god, and have just as strong a faith, and they still have the same evidential problems.

Yes but how many have seen the Godhead for themselves. None but a few who were called by the Holy Ghost. That is the big difference here. Each of them would declare whom they did see. Again, either you are devoted to know the truth or "just venturing the path."

Fable stories of evolution? Are you aware that the debate among scientists is over concerning evolution? There are millions of pieces of corroborating evidence for evolution, not one against, yet you are quick to call it a fable when you believe a book thrown together from many 300+ years after events happened, by anonymous authors, translated and edited multiple times? It is incredible to me that your powers of reason are so lacking and bias toward your blind faith.

More fable than truth. Do they really know what really happened? Is it better to see it for yourself in order to know what did happen vice someone elses fabrication of mixed truths and lies? You failed to research scrolls that taught thousands of years ago the universe, universes, other earths, our solar system, how this earth was formed and from where did it come forth. No! There was no caveman prior to Adam as there is no direct histroy more than that time period. As this earth is alot older than what scientist keeps adjusting every other decade to undo the last mistaken proof. Do they really know how many thimes this earth has undergone creation inorder for us to be here today? Do they know, it was not even created in this solar system? Even Abraham had right even without a telescope of the solar system and our own galaxy. :lol:They will be corrected and so will our history books. Now! What was your point again?

This is poor reasoning, and demonstrates no evidence at all, it appears from reading history Josephs character and reliability are somewhat questionable. You are making a great assumption in claiming the Joseph saw or heard anything, again, no evidence. What about all the other prophets in the all the other religions who claim visions?

You failed again. What did I say? Reread the post vice this time, use the Spirit not the natural brain. Though, this statement is no different from the Hebrews seeing Moses, not as a prophet doing his time.

I understand what you are telling me, and I have read the bible, part of the book of Mormon, and numerous other religious texts. Why do you not subscribe to the five pillars of Islam? Have you read and prayed about them sincerely? Have you prayed 5 times a day and lived by the laws of Islam to find out for yourself? I can go on and on just as you did but for pages and pages of other examples asking you to do the same method of "research" for all of the other religions.

That is because I have read the book twice, the Koran, and I can testify, it is not the work of the Lord. Not only that, I have it on my desk. No offense to Mohammed, but he failed to check the angel called Gabriel, who visited him in the cave, to see he was legit. He wasn't....that is fact. If you don't believe me ask GOD.

Is there more objective evidence for the bible and the book of mormon being true than for the Torah, the Quran, the Vedic Scriptures, The Tao Te Ching?

Thanks for the reply,

Dec

How is your faith? If you are a true devoted member of the Christ or sincerely seeking Christ, ask Him.... Now, that is the difference from our faith than any religion of this world. We know He lives. We know He does talk to His follwers. We know He has called a living Prophet and Apostles today, as it was during His time. :)

[KristofferUmfrey]

And Islam rules you out because of that fact. This is my point....

Islam can rule me out all they want, I have two independent witnesses of Jesus, His ministry, and His resurrection that I KNOW are true. Because I KNOW those two witnesses are true, whatever conflicts with them can be safely ruled out.

[Hemidakota]

I have yet to meet anyone in Islam that witnessed Allah firsthand. I am not trying to be condescending either. For I have great respect for Mohammed and what he strive to accomplish and those who wish to live it fully. :)

[Carl62]

An excellent book that I absolutely cannot recommend enough is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This book asks the questions about Jesus that tough-minded skeptics (like Lee Strobel, who was an atheist now turned Christian) would ask and gives convincing answers and historical evidence to all of them. Again, wholeheartedly recommended! Even though the author is not LDS, this is a book I'd recommend for anyone of any religion. A MUST read for any and all skeptics!:)