Satan

[Misshalfway]

That's what they tell you at church, but my experience was that I only learned a few things over and over again in going to church for 23 years. While I was still very active in the church I learned more about its secret history and after gaining much more knowledge on the subject, I then made the decision to leave the church. So I wouldn't my knowledge receded when I left the path. My journey was - gain more knowledge - then leave the path.

Well, I think Hemi means the reception of spiritual knowledge. When we leave the path, there is no doubt that we can learn and discover new ideas, but we become more and more "on our own" in the pursuit. And the spiritual light we once had, well, the diminishes and we are left to determine truth on our own in our infinite weakness.

[japacific]

Well, I think Hemi means the reception of spiritual knowledge. When we leave the path, there is no doubt that we can learn and discover new ideas, but we become more and more "on our own" in the pursuit. And the spiritual light we once had, well, the diminishes and we are left to determine truth on our own in our infinite weakness.

Yep you hit the nail on the head. I know thats what he meant anyway. By your definition I will confess that all that spiritual light I had before has completely diminished. Obviously you know that I don't see it that way. I see it as testing what I thought I knew and finding out it was wrong, and replacing my beliefs and opinions with facts.

[Misshalfway]

Well, I can understand that. I think it is sometimes healthy to examine why we believe what we do. And there is no doubt that testing it can be a good measure.

I am just wondering how you "know" it is wrong. Or is that just another opinion?

[japacific]

Well theres opinions on things, and then theres facts. It doesn't always have to be just people's opinions.

Here is an example.

I guess everyone knows the game where you take three cups and put an item underneath one of them. Lets say you and your friend both play and I move the cups around.

I put a ball under the middle cup, then move the three cups around and around trying to confuse the both of you. Then I ask you which cup is the ball underneath?

Now you were watching closely and you think its under the left cup. Your friend was also watching but thinks its under the right cup? Both of you have an opinion only. You could be right, or your friend could be right, or you could both be wrong.

In this example, lets say I lifted the cups up and showed you that the ball was actually not under the left, not under the right, but under the cup in the middle. You can see that people are entitled to their opinions and beliefs. But there is also the fact there, that does not change no matter how much you want to debate that...its still under the left cup...If you know what I mean.

So when I say I gave up what I believe for what is facts - I really mean that. Not that I just changed my opinion on things, but I had no choice after seeing facts. Things that testable and provable. Its a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

[Guest Alana]

I can think of one thing that almost was good, though I 'think' I know why Satan did it. That was tempting Adam and Eve with the fruit. If they hadn't eaten it, mortality and families and all of us getting our bodies would have never been kicked off. Though, I suppose Satan did this because even though he knew this would open the door for us to get our bodies and eventually return to our Heavenly Father, it would also allow him to lead astray some of the 2/3 that didn't choose his plan in the beginning.

[Teancum18]

So true....and "free agency" is not "free" from consequences.

Yeah, Born Agains believe in "free from consequence."

[japacific]

Hey, what say ye?

Is Satan really really smart? Or really really dumb?

[Hemidakota]

Yeah, Born Agains believe in "free from consequence."

I don't know how the word FREE AGENCY came to being but the correct term is Agency and not FREE AGENCY.

I do know some prophets used that phrase but latter did not.

[Hemidakota]

Hey, what say ye?

Is Satan really really smart? Or really really dumb?

Good morning Elder. Is Lucifer smart? Yes and no. Yes, for both the Savior and Lucifer were in the beginning before us and hold the power of persuadesness over many in the beginning. We could say that Lucifer maybe the first creation of the Intelligence and lost it to Jehovah do to his unwiliness to follow the Plan of Salvation after the FATHER chosen the second. This is where he failed. Pride was his downfall. So in an essence, he was not smart.

[hordak]

{sympathy for the devil playing in the background}

If Jesus plan was for us to learn through choice then we need to be faced with evil to chose good.Satan tempting us is a good thing. If he called it quits then everything would be good and we would have no choice making Jesus plan null and void. Satan is just filling a need. IMO

(This only applies if all sin comes from him.)

[a-train]

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms? - Isaiah 14:16

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

Hordak, was Lucifer a pawn in the eternal chess game?

[hordak]

Hordak, was Lucifer a pawn in the eternal chess game?

That i don't know.What i do know is to choose something good (I.E. Not stealing my neighbors car) there has to be something bad (stealing the car) to be tempted with.You need options to make a choice.To chose good there must be an evil option.

If temptation and evil comes from Satan (not sure the official doctrine on this) then he is an important part of the plan.If he didn't tempt us to do wrong then we couldn't choose right. There would be no growth.

[Hemidakota]

Same thought here....:)

[Nappaljarri]

I think humans do a great deal of evil thoughts and temptation options by themselves.... Satan sits back and laughs, because there is no effort on his part to do these things.

[japacific]

There is no devil

[bmy-]

Hordak, was Lucifer a pawn in the eternal chess game?

Not addressed to me.. but I certainly believe that to be the case. Much like Judas he was picked to play a part [iMO]. As to whether they were type-casted or not... the jury will remain undecided until we have that revealed to us.

I can think of one thing that almost was good, though I 'think' I know why Satan did it. That was tempting Adam and Eve with the fruit. If they hadn't eaten it, mortality and families and all of us getting our bodies would have never been kicked off. Though, I suppose Satan did this because even though he knew this would open the door for us to get our bodies and eventually return to our Heavenly Father, it would also allow him to lead astray some of the 2/3 that didn't choose his plan in the beginning.

I don't think he had much of a choice. He's not pure evil.. he's just prideful. That in itself can resemble evil.. but I think it's moreso just a lack of 'good'.

Had he known when to 'let it go' we might be in a different situation.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Alana

I can think of one thing that almost was good, though I 'think' I know why Satan did it. That was tempting Adam and Eve with the fruit. If they hadn't eaten it, mortality and families and all of us getting our bodies would have never been kicked off. Though, I suppose Satan did this because even though he knew this would open the door for us to get our bodies and eventually return to our Heavenly Father, it would also allow him to lead astray some of the 2/3 that didn't choose his plan in the beginning.

I don't believe that was the case with eating the fruit was the only way. Perhaps, it was the fastest way to begin mortality but this is my opinion. As shown in the temple, they were instructed by those who were ministering too them. How would Adam begin to speak, to walk, or even simply knew animal names? Something we need to revisit and look for ourselves to see if by a measurement of terriestial time, could it have been they would chosen for themselves to have children and exited the garden. Mystery we will one day soon understand.

Now, regards to Lucifer, he did it do to pride and as a child, angered and filled with resentment, wanted us to fall. Not only this world but other worlds. It seems, he was not privy to that council of leaders in the beginning regarding the plan of salvation.