*waves Hi*

[Ray]

In no way have I denigrated women or said that they are not capable of being good leaders. My wife, for one, is an awesome leader, and she is also one of my greatest examples of how people should lead other people. But she does not lead our family as the head of the household, and she does not lead those in the Church who have been given greater authority. She understands and accepts the fact that our Lord has given the priesthood to men, and she accepts her role as a woman who should be supportive of men who have been given greater authority. Not that women don’t have any authority of their own, or that my wife doesn’t have any authority of her own, or that she doesn’t lead our family in a way of her own, but she does not presume to lead men who have been given greater authority. Do you see what I mean now?

A very good woman can mold and create a man into a great leader and husband, and let him believe that he did it all on his own.

Do you also believe that a very good man can mold and create a woman into a great leader and wife, letting her believe that she did it all on her own?

Heh, that kinda reminds me of what I heard in the movie, “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”, when a woman said that “Men may be the head of the family, but woman is the neck, able to get that head to turn any way that she wants.” There is a lot of truth to that, but it also takes a brain to prompt that neck to move in the first place. :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 5 2004, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 5 2004, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 4 2004, 02:16 PM

Have you ever realized that Jesus appointed only men to be His apostles during His mortal ministry?  Why do you suppose Jesus did that?  Do you think that was only because Jesus thought the world wasn’t ready for the woman’s movement at that time?  Don’t you think Jesus would have helped to get the world ready for the woman’s movement by appointing women to be leaders if that was what Jesus really wanted?

Apparently you've never read the Nag Hammadi scrolls written by very early Christians. Their writings refer to Mary Magdalene as an apostle.

I guess I should have clarified what I meant by using the word “apostle”.

Basically, an apostle is a disciple with authority to represent the person the disciple follows. Wiith that understanding, I can see how it could truthfully be said that Mary Magdelene was an apostle, in a limited sense, since Jesus sent her to the twelve people we commonly refer to as apostles, to give them a message from Him.

Do you now see what I meant when I used the word “apostle”, and what I am talking about?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 5 2004, 11:10 AM

[i guess I should have clarified what I meant by using the word “apostle”.

Basically, an apostle is a disciple with authority to represent the person the disciple follows. Wiith that understanding, I can see how it could truthfully be said that Mary Magdelene was an apostle, in a limited sense, since Jesus sent her to the twelve people we commonly refer to as apostles, to give them a message from Him.

Do you now see what I meant when I used the word “apostle”, and what I am talking about?

Yeah, I knew what you meant. I was just funnin ya!

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 5 2004, 11:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 5 2004, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Nov 5 2004, 09:54 AM

Strawberry: I was right there with you until you made this statement. Have you, by chance, been reading "Fascinating Womanhood"? This sounds like one of the manipulative techniques the author advocates women to use to bolster their husbands' fragile egos. I know you have a good marriage, and maybe it's just your choice of words, but is marriage really about creating and molding each other? Every marriage is different, but I like a good, equal partnership where considerate honesty, as well as love and commitment are the foundation. I think spouses should be supportive of each other, but shouldn't have to deceive the other into thinking that they did it all by themselves. I think it's okay, and even necessary for men to recognize and appreciate their wives' efforts. Otherwise the wife could unknowingly be creating a monster! :)

Nope, I haven't read that book.

I have however, been married to the same man for 23 years. As I see it, if the man comes off feeling wonderful after getting that big sell that you gave him direction in, then you both win. If I understand what Ray said with the palm computer that his wife pointed out, then she is helping to direct his success. I am my husbands’ greatest cheerleader, and I support him in his work. The very good woman part comes in sitting back and letting him absorb all of the credit.

It might sound like deceit to you, but to me it is an essential part of a marriage. You are right when you say every marriage is different.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 5 2004, 11:51 AM

My wife, for one, is an awesome leader, and she is also one of my greatest examples of how people should lead other people. But she does not lead our family as the head of the household, and she does not lead those in the Church who have been given greater authority. She understands and accepts the fact that our Lord has given the priesthood to men, and she accepts her role as a woman who should be supportive of men who have been given greater authority. Not that women don’t have any authority of their own, or that my wife doesn’t have any authority of her own, or that she doesn’t lead our family in a way of her own, but she does not presume to lead men who have been given greater authority. Do you see what I mean now?

Ray, you are a very lucky man to have such a wife. She honors you, who possess the greater authority. She follows your leadership as head of the household….beautiful. I can see that this works for you.

I honor the priesthood which my husband holds and blesses our family with (see my first post in this topic). I respect the leaders of the church to lead this church under the direction of Our Father In Heaven. I don't however presume any of those men to have a greater authority over me.

My husband and I are a team and we are striving for the same goal...eternal life with our family.

[Vicky Hail]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Nov 5 2004, 10:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Nov 5 2004, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 5 2004, 11:51 AM

My wife, for one, is an awesome leader, and she is also one of my greatest examples of how people should lead other people.  But she does not lead our family as the head of the household, and she does not lead those in the Church who have been given greater authority.  She understands and accepts the fact that our Lord has given the priesthood to men, and she accepts her role as a woman who should be supportive of men who have been given greater authority.  Not that women don’t have any authority of their own, or that my wife doesn’t have any authority of her own, or that she doesn’t lead our family in a way of her own, but she does not presume to lead men who have been given greater authority.  Do you see what I mean now?

Ray, you are a very lucky man to have such a wife. She honors you, who possess the greater authority. She follows your leadership as head of the household….beautiful. I can see that this works for you.

I honor the priesthood which my husband holds and blesses our family with (see my first post in this topic). I respect the leaders of the church to lead this church under the direction of Our Father In Heaven. I don't however presume any of those men to have a greater authority over me.

My husband and I are a team and we are striving for the same goal...eternal life with our family.

This is what I want to see is more "Team" work. There is no "I" In Team. We have to work "Together" if we want to achieve what Heavenly Father has set forth for us or we fail "Together." Neither the man nor woman is to blame or be totally credited for any failures or successes in our lives. "Together" we make the decisions that lead us into the next step in our lives whether it's a good step or a bad step we've gotten there "together" If it's good then we continue to enjoy it "together" if it's bad then we continue to strive to make it better "together."

I don't want a man or a woman to take sole responsibility for a success or a failure we have to do it "together" to make it work.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+ Nov 5 2004, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Nov 5 2004, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I respect the leaders of the church to lead this church under the direction of Our Father In Heaven. I don't however presume any of those men to have a greater authority over me.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, because these 2 statements seem to be opposed to each other. Perhaps you also don’t understand what I mean.

When referring to people with greater authority, I’m referring not only to our leaders in the Church, or the kingdom of God, but also to our leaders in civil government, whether they be leaders in our families or other social entities such as cities, states, or nations. I refer to these people as greater authorities because they do in fact have authority over us, above and beyond the authority that each of us has over ourselves. If we are not subject to our leaders, or if we think we should not be subject to them, we will someday discover whether or not we were right or wrong in being rebellious towards them.

<!--QuoteBegin--Vicky Hail@ Nov 5 2004, 10:14 PM

We have to work "Together" if we want to achieve what Heavenly Father has set forth for us or we fail "Together."

I agree that we have to work together to be able to enjoy all of the greatest blessings in life, but in working together we should recognize and follow people who are placed in leadership positions above us, whether they are good leaders or not.. That is what our Lord expects from us… whether they are good leaders or not.. That doesn’t mean, however, that we should not seek people who are or can be better leaders over us, rather than some bad leaders we might have over us, but in seeking those good or better people we should always remain subject to people who have authority over us.

Perhaps I should quote something for people who don’t already know this:

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. - Articles of Faith, #12

Btw, if you disagree with what I’m saying, search the scriptures to find out what our Lord has to say about all of this and then report what you have learned so that we can both come to a better understanding of the truth together.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 8 2004, 11:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 8 2004, 11:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@ Nov 5 2004, 09:51 PM

I respect the leaders of the church to lead this church under the direction of Our Father In Heaven. I don't however presume any of those men to have a greater authority over me.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, because these 2 statements seem to be opposed to each other. Perhaps you also don’t understand what I mean.

When referring to people with greater authority, I’m referring not only to our leaders in the Church, or the kingdom of God, but also to our leaders in civil government, whether they be leaders in our families or other social entities such as cities, states, or nations. I refer to these people as greater authorities because they do in fact have authority over us, above and beyond the authority that each of us has over ourselves. If we are not subject to our leaders, or if we think we should not be subject to them, we will someday discover whether or not we were right or wrong in being rebellious towards them.

Okay, I have a problem with the words Greater Authority.

Since I’m an adult, I don't believe anyone to have greater authority over me. Maybe I am rebellious, but I believe that it is my right to make my own decisions without the fear of the Greater Authority. I thought that we lived in a democracy and we were allowed choices. Greater Authority sounds like something out of George Orwell’s 1984…Big Brother is Watching...

[shanstress70]

Hi Ray,

You didn't answer my questions earlier in this thread. I'll ask them again.

Do you think women should be allowed to vote?

Do you think that women should be allowed to own property?

Do you think that women who work should get the same pay as men for doing the same work?

And one additional question... do you respect women who are placed in authority over you? This is in reference to your last post: "I’m referring not only to our leaders in the Church, or the kingdom of God, but also to our leaders in civil government, whether they be leaders in our families or other social entities such as cities, states, or nations."

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 8 2004, 10:27 AM

That doesn’t mean, however, that we should not seek people who are or can be better leaders over us, rather than some bad leaders we might have over us, but in seeking those good or better people we should always remain subject to people who have authority over us.

Within reason Ray. Many societies can't seek out leaders, and often they aren't leaders, they are dictators. I think you are right, that in an ideal world, when our leaders have our best interests at heart, we would be wise to follow and support them. We would want to. Unfortunately, all too often, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. Please keep those people in mind when you speak about authority.

This is what I appreciate about the oath and covenant of the Priesthood. That power is rendered powerless unless the priesthood holder absolutely loves the people He is in authority over. We have no obligation to support a leader who is corrupt. When a person feels loved unconditionally, they would follow that leader to the ends of the earth. This is also the only way authority can work in a marriage. Not because we're supposed to back down and support our husbands cause God says so, but because the wife feels so loved and so "one" with him that she freely gives all her support. In the exact way that God, as husband, loves His bride, His church.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Nov 8 2004, 11:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Nov 8 2004, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 8 2004, 11:27 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@ Nov 5 2004, 09:51 PM

I respect the leaders of the church to lead this church under the direction of Our Father In Heaven. I don't however presume any of those men to have a greater authority over me.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, because these 2 statements seem to be opposed to each other. Perhaps you also don’t understand what I mean.

When referring to people with greater authority, I’m referring not only to our leaders in the Church, or the kingdom of God, but also to our leaders in civil government, whether they be leaders in our families or other social entities such as cities, states, or nations. I refer to these people as greater authorities because they do in fact have authority over us, above and beyond the authority that each of us has over ourselves. If we are not subject to our leaders, or if we think we should not be subject to them, we will someday discover whether or not we were right or wrong in being rebellious towards them.

Okay, I have a problem with the words Greater Authority.

Since I’m an adult, I don't believe anyone to have greater authority over me. Maybe I am rebellious, but I believe that it is my right to make my own decisions without the fear of the Greater Authority. I thought that we lived in a democracy and we were allowed choices. Greater Authority sounds like something out of George Orwell’s 1984…Big Brother is Watching...

Heh, so what words would you use to refer to people who have greater authority over you?

Do you accept the authority of a policeman in your jurisdiction? … any of your judges? … your mayor? … your governor? … the President of the United States? (assuming you live in America) … your bishop? … your stake president? … your regional representative? … any of the General Authorities? … any of the apostles? … any of the prophets in the Church? … the President of the Church? … your Mom? … your Dad? … your grandparents? … your great grandparents? … your great, great grandparents? … etc?

Oh, maybe you think I’m getting off track here, since you’re an adult, because maybe you think your parents no longer have any authority over you… but our Lord never said that we should honor our parents only until we become an adult ourselves. I believe and testify that our parents will always have authority over us, until our Lord says otherwise, and if we someday come to think that we are equal to them in every way simple because we are adults too, we will fail to realize our full potential because without them we cannot be made perfect.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70@ Nov 9 2004, 04:57 AM

Hi Ray,

You didn't answer my questions earlier in this thread. I'll ask them again.

I had hoped my answer was obvious in my earlier response, but if you need me to spell it out for you, I will.

Do you think women should be allowed to vote?

Yes, and I think their vote is equally valuable to that of men, assuming you’re referring to voting in matters of general election.

Do you think that women should be allowed to own property?

Yes, and I see no reason to limit the amount of property women should be able to obtain.

Do you think that women who work should get the same pay as men for doing the same work?

Same work, same results, same pay. Most definitely.

And one additional question... do you respect women who are placed in authority over you? This is in reference to your last post: "I’m referring not only to our leaders in the Church, or the kingdom of God, but also to our leaders in civil government, whether they be leaders in our families or other social entities such as cities, states, or nations."

Yes, I do. My supervisor over my job is a woman and I respect her authority just as I would the authority of any man in the same position. My mayor is also a woman, and I respect her just as I would the authority of a man in that position. I also respect the authority of women placed in authority over me in the Church, such as the women who are leaders over Sunday School classes, the choir (of which I am a member), and the Relief Society (who has some authority over that of my wife). If I had children in Primary or Young Women or Young Men, I would also respect their authority over my children as well.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 9 2004, 10:52 AM

but our Lord never said that we should honor our parents only until we become an adult ourselves. I believe and testify that our parents will always have authority over us, until our Lord says otherwise, and if we someday come to think that we are equal to them in every way simple because we are adults too, we will fail to realize our full potential because without them we cannot be made perfect.

You seem quite obsessed with "authority." Maybe you need to define exactly what you mean when you use the word. Policemen have authority over us, but they also have an obligation and responsibility to abide the law themselves. Do you feel that once we are adults, that we are obligated to obey our parents? I don't interpret that scripture that way at all. Honoring isn't about obeying. It's about respect and love. What type of authority do you feel parents and grandparents hold over their grown children? I honor and respect my parents, but they don't tell me what to do anymore, although they may offer advice--especially if I request it. If they did, I would listen, and then make up my own mind. Honor is something that's earned, not demanded.

[Vicky Hail]

Originally posted by curvette@Nov 9 2004, 12:13 PM

Honor is something that's earned, not demanded.

This is one of the things that I have a hard time with. Some of the men of the church seem to demand respect instead of trying to earn it with me. Our President is awesome, he does not look down upon anyone, excluding the fact that he is the shortest person in our branch lol, he is great. He does not feel that anyone is less equal then anyone else, he takes everything that everyone says and puts it to work. But there are some that walk around like see me I'm a man respect me. Well phoey on them you best earn it from me first just as much as I have to earn your respect.

You hit the nail right on the head thy little curvy one!

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 9 2004, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 9 2004, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 8 2004, 10:27 AM

That doesn’t mean, however, that we should not seek people who are or can be better leaders over us, rather than some bad leaders we might have over us, but in seeking those good or better people we should always remain subject to people who have authority over us.

Within reason Ray. Many societies can't seek out leaders, and often they aren't leaders, they are dictators. I think you are right, that in an ideal world, when our leaders have our best interests at heart, we would be wise to follow and support them. We would want to. Unfortunately, all too often, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. Please keep those people in mind when you speak about authority.

This is what I appreciate about the oath and covenant of the Priesthood. That power is rendered powerless unless the priesthood holder absolutely loves the people He is in authority over. We have no obligation to support a leader who is corrupt. When a person feels loved unconditionally, they would follow that leader to the ends of the earth. This is also the only way authority can work in a marriage. Not because we're supposed to back down and support our husbands cause God says so, but because the wife feels so loved and so "one" with him that she freely gives all her support. In the exact way that God, as husband, loves His bride, His church.

Perhaps a few scriptures are in order:

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. – Hebrews 13:17

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief; suffering wrongfully.

For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. – 1 Peter 1:13-25

And they did humble themselves even to the dust, subjecting themselves to the yoke of bondage, submitting themselves to be smitten, and to be driven to and fro, and burdened, according to the desires of their enemies.

And they did humble themselves even in the depths of humility; and they did cry mightily to God; yea, even all the day long did they cry unto their God that he would deliver them out of their afflictions.

And now the Lord was slow to hear their cry because of their iniquities; - Mosiah 21:13-15 – I also recommend that you read the events surrounding these scriptures to get a better understanding of what our Lord requires from us when we are faced with unrighteous leaders, and what in fact does not work.

[Ray]

Whether our leaders are worthy of our subjection or not, our Lord requires us to be submissive and humble to the people in leadership positions above us.

Honor is something that's earned, not demanded.

No, our Lord has demanded and commanded us to honor our leaders, whether they are good leaders or not. Honoring good leaders is just a whole lot easier to do.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 9 2004, 11:44 AM

Perhaps a few scriptures are in order:

Indeed they are: (I really don't have time for this...)

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little AUTHORITY, as they SUPPOSE, they will immediately begin to exercise unrightous dominion. Hence many are called, but few are chosen. No power or influence CAN or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned. By kindness and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.

(D&C 121: 39-42)

Golly, the authority isn't in effect anymore when we're not feelin the LOVE! You go do all these things, and then come back and lecture us lowly women about authority.

[Ray]

Are you suggesting that I am practicing unrighteous dominion? Where did you get that idea?

I’m simply discussing the principle of authority, basing my thoughts upon scriptures and my personal testimony from the Holy Ghost.

Got that?

In other words, I’m not telling you what you should or should not do, or even how you should understand the principle of authority, I’m simply telling you what the Lord has revealed through revelation ...revelation you can see and know for yourself through the scriptures.

Sheesh.

Btw, our Lord is the judge of who does and does not have authority, and He is the only one who should judge whether or not someone is practicing unrighteous dominion. Until He does, we should all follow our leaders while seeking the best leaders we can find. And again, that is not coming from me, that is coming from direct statements our Lord has made Himself.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 9 2004, 12:22 PM

And again, that is not coming from me, that is coming from direct statements our Lord has made Himself.

And this scripture on nullifying priesthood authority when it is practiced unrighteously is coming from the Lord, and not me. (although I completely concur with Him.)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 9 2004, 12:22 PM

Are you suggesting that I am practicing unrighteous dominion? Where did you get that idea?

Also, I'm not suggesting that you, personally practice unrighteous dominion. I suspect that you seek righteousness in your priesthood duties. I'm suggesting that you don't understand that modern scripture is explicit on the responsibilties of the priesthood holder. That if he doesn't keep his end of the covenant, his authority is no longer in force.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 9 2004, 01:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 9 2004, 01:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@ Nov 9 2004, 04:57 AM

Hi Ray,

You didn't answer my questions earlier in this thread. I'll ask them again.

I had hoped my answer was obvious in my earlier response, but if you need me to spell it out for you, I will.

Do you think women should be allowed to vote?

Yes, and I think their vote is equally valuable to that of men, assuming you’re referring to voting in matters of general election.

Do you think that women should be allowed to own property?

Yes, and I see no reason to limit the amount of property women should be able to obtain.

Do you think that women who work should get the same pay as men for doing the same work?

Same work, same results, same pay. Most definitely.

And one additional question... do you respect women who are placed in authority over you? This is in reference to your last post: "I’m referring not only to our leaders in the Church, or the kingdom of God, but also to our leaders in civil government, whether they be leaders in our families or other social entities such as cities, states, or nations."

Yes, I do. My supervisor over my job is a woman and I respect her authority just as I would the authority of any man in the same position. My mayor is also a woman, and I respect her just as I would the authority of a man in that position. I also respect the authority of women placed in authority over me in the Church, such as the women who are leaders over Sunday School classes, the choir (of which I am a member), and the Relief Society (who has some authority over that of my wife). If I had children in Primary or Young Women or Young Men, I would also respect their authority over my children as well.

Thanks for answering, Ray.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette@ Nov 9 2004, 11:13 AM

You seem quite obsessed with "authority." Maybe you need to define exactly what you mean when you use the word.

Heh, I wouldn’t say that I’m obsessed with it, but I have come to realize and appreciate the need for authority while understanding what it is. And in fact, I have a testimony of the need for the authority, and how life would be without it.

Simply put, authority is the "thing" required before anything can be done. Or, just as power can be defined as the ability to do work, authority can be defined as the ability to use power. Without authority, nothing can be done. Even in situations where we might say that someone isn’t authorized to do something, or doesn’t have authority to do something, that someone is considered to have presumed authority before getting something done. And as we know from scriptures, those who have presumed authority from our Lord will someday find that our Lord never gave them His authority to do His work, such that everything presumed to be done in His name will be seen to be invalid except as works of their own.

Got that? That’s probably about as “exact” as I can get to a clear definition of authority, although I might be able to rephrase things another way if you still don’t understand me.

Policemen have authority over us, but they also have an obligation and responsibility to abide the law themselves. Do you feel that once we are adults, that we are obligated to obey our parents?

A scripture stating “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right”, comes to mind. And even if our parents ask us or tell us to do something that is against the will of our Lord, I think we should still honor them with regret that we are not able to obey them in that thing. After all, they are still considered to have authority, and we should all seek to be one together.

I don't interpret that scripture that way at all. Honoring isn't about obeying. It's about respect and love. What type of authority do you feel parents and grandparents hold over their grown children? I honor and respect my parents, but they don't tell me what to do anymore, although they may offer advice--especially if I request it. If they did, I would listen, and then make up my own mind. Honor is something that's earned, not demanded.

I agree that honoring isn’t the same thing as obeying, but our Lord has commanded us to be subject to authorities and that means we should obey them, unless our Lord commands us to do otherwise. After all, our Lord is our highest authority, and we should obey Him over everybody else. Aside from a command from our Lord telling us not to honor authorities over us, we should honor them and obey them and recognize them to be our authorities. Got that?

Basically, we first need to figure out who our authorities are and what they want from us, obeying and honoring them in all they tell us to do unless we receive counsel from higher authorities telling us to disregard counsel from lower authorities that are still greater authorities than us. And don’t tell me that we don’t have greater authorities over us, because they’re all around us.

What type of authority do you feel parents and grandparents hold over their grown children?

The same type of authority our heavenly Father has over all of His children, despite the fact that we don’t always honor His counsel or accept His will. But our obedience to Him doesn’t mean that He doesn’t retain His authority over us, does it? Just as we will be rewarded for our good works, we will be punished for our bad works, and all of this because our heavenly Father has all of the ability and authority He needs to get His work done.

Btw, I believe our parents will continue to play a key role in our progression throughout eternity, if they remain faithful to our Lord by accepting His leadership and counsel above that of others. In other words, the work of faithful parents is not done at the moment their children reach the age of 18, or 21, or even 100, because faithful parents will be parents forever.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 9 2004, 12:50 PM

Whether our leaders are worthy of our subjection or not, our Lord requires us to be submissive and humble to the people in leadership positions above us.

Ah Hah! You have just shown me what bothers me about your tonality with this whole authority thing.

Greater Authority and Above Us

"Do you accept the authority of a policeman in your jurisdiction? … any of your judges? … your mayor? … your governor? … the President of the United States? (assuming you live in America) … your bishop? … your stake president? … your regional representative? … any of the General Authorities? … any of the apostles? … any of the prophets in the Church? … the President of the Church? … your Mom? … your Dad? … your grandparents? … your great grandparents? … your great, great grandparents? … etc?"

Lawmakers have authority over me...NO...but I respect and abide by the laws.

Political figures...Authority....NO...but I support these leaders.

Religious Leaders...Authority....NO...but I love and respect them.

Mom... she died last year.

Dad... Authority...NO...but I support, love and respect him.

The rest have passed away.

"Leadership Positions"...these people are not above me; this is LIFE, not AMWAY!

I believe that all men AND women are created equal. I have been in leadership positions before and I was no better then those people I lead. Most of the time, when I have been the leader, I have been the one who has had my life enriched. When I am released or reduced of the leadership position I’m no less pf a person not having the title by my name. I am still SF with or without any title.

[Ray]

Lawmakers have authority over me...NO...but I respect and abide by the laws.

It is good that you respect and abide by the laws, but that does not mean that “police officers” do not have authority over you. Notice that I am referring to police officers, not law makers.

In other words, if a police officer gives you a ticket, or a warning, or anything else he can give you within the scope of his authority, you cannot responsibly regard what he gave you as simply another person’s opinion. If he gives you a traffic ticket, for instance, you cannot simply regard that piece of paper as equal in value to another piece of paper you could produce yourself, assuming you have no greater authority over the authority of the police officer. The greater authorities will honor the actions of that police officer, if he was acting within the scope of his duties, and will hold you accountable for your actions in response to that police officer. Your authority and his authority will not be considered of equal value.

Political figures...Authority....NO...but I support these leaders.

Please cite an example of how authorities have no authority over you. I think you’re talking off the top of your head.

Religious Leaders...Authority....NO...but I love and respect them.

I think you’re either delusional or simply failing to think this through. Surely you know that the Lord will hold you accountable for how you respond to His messengers.

Mom... she died last year.

Her death doesn’t equate to the end of her authority over you, and it doesn’t mean that she no longer exists. Someday you will see her again, and I hope you will be as respectful of her authority then as you should have been while she was here on Earth.

Dad... Authority...NO...but I support, love and respect him.

The rest have passed away.

How do you regard the scriptures that tell you to honor your parents and be in subjection to them? Whether or not they’re living on Earth, and whether or not you’re living in the same house with them, they’re still your parents.

"Leadership Positions"...these people are not above me; this is LIFE, not AMWAY!

Are you referring to the pyramid scheme in Amway? Are you thinking that people in higher levels of the pyramid are better people than the people on the lower levels? Perhaps you’re confusing authority with the idea that people are better than you, and if so, you should start to see things differently. People with greater authority are not better people, they simply have greater authority.

I am still SF with or without any title.

But without the title you are without the authority. In other words, the Relief Society President of your ward is not a better woman than the other women in the ward, but she does have the authority to be the leader of the Relief Society. Once she is released from that calling, she will no longer have the authority to be the Relief Society President, and she should then be willing to follow the new Relief Society President of the ward. Authority doesn’t make a person better, it simply gives them the authorization to have their actions recognized by greater authorities, and our Lord is at the top of our pyramid.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 9 2004, 06:33 PM

Lawmakers have authority over me...NO...but I respect and abide by the laws.

It is good that you respect and abide by the laws, but that does not mean that “police officers” do not have authority over you. Notice that I am referring to police officers, not law makers.

In other words, if a police officer gives you a ticket, or a warning, or anything else he can give you within the scope of his authority, you cannot responsibly regard what he gave you as simply another person’s opinion. If he gives you a traffic ticket, for instance, you cannot simply regard that piece of paper as equal in value to another piece of paper you could produce yourself, assuming you have no greater authority over the authority of the police officer. The greater authorities will honor the actions of that police officer, if he was acting within the scope of his duties, and will hold you accountable for your actions in response to that police officer. Your authority and his authority will not be considered of equal value.

Political figures...Authority....NO...but I support these leaders.

Please cite an example of how authorities have no authority over you. I think you’re talking off the top of your head.

Religious Leaders...Authority....NO...but I love and respect them.

I think you’re either delusional or simply failing to think this through. Surely you know that the Lord will hold you accountable for how you respond to His messengers.

Mom... she died last year.

Her death doesn’t equate to the end of her authority over you, and it doesn’t mean that she no longer exists. Someday you will see her again, and I hope you will be as respectful of her authority then as you should have been while she was here on Earth.

Dad... Authority...NO...but I support, love and respect him.

The rest have passed away.

How do you regard the scriptures that tell you to honor your parents and be in subjection to them? Whether or not they’re living on Earth, and whether or not you’re living in the same house with them, they’re still your parents.

"Leadership Positions"...these people are not above me; this is LIFE, not AMWAY!

Are you referring to the pyramid scheme in Amway? Are you thinking that people in higher levels of the pyramid are better people than the people on the lower levels? Perhaps you’re confusing authority with the idea that people are better than you, and if so, you should start to see things differently. People with greater authority are not better people, they simply have greater authority.

I am still SF with or without any title.

But without the title you are without the authority. In other words, the Relief Society President of your ward is not a better woman than the other women in the ward, but she does have the authority to be the leader of the Relief Society. Once she is released from that calling, she will no longer have the authority to be the Relief Society President, and she should then be willing to follow the new Relief Society President of the ward. Authority doesn’t make a person better, it simply gives them the authorization to have their actions recognized by greater authorities, and our Lord is at the top of our pyramid.

I will reply on this later. It's my hubby's birthday and I have much to do.