*waves Hi*

[Ray]

Warm regards and Happy Birthday to him. :)

[Guest curvette]

Ray. If you had been a German soldier living in the 30's-40's, would you have accepted Adolf Hitler's authority over you and participated in the genocide?

[john doe]

What's that old internet saying? Something like "when someone resorts to inferring Hitler/Nazis they have effectively lost the argument".

[Vicky Hail]

HOw about them Braves? lol

let's step back for a second and remember we are adults and start concentrating on the posts instead of picking on each other :)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by john doe@Nov 9 2004, 08:29 PM

What's that old internet saying? Something like "when someone resorts to inferring Hitler/Nazis they have effectively lost the argument".

Usually I'd agree with you, but it's a completely valid question in this instance. Ray is stuck on "authority", but doesn't consider the possibility of evil leadership, probably because empathy isn't natural to him and it's outside his realm of experience.

[Ray]

Ray. If you had been a German soldier living in the 30's-40's, would you have accepted Adolf Hitler's authority over you and participated in the genocide?

Participated in what way? If I had been a German soldier living during that time, I think I easily could have accepted Adolf Hitler as the leader of my country as long as I didn't directly participate in the Jewish genocide, because I probably would not have believed the evil things about him or about that action unless I had received some serious and convincing kind of proof. And I think there were many German soldiers who didn’t realize what was going on in those concentration camps when following orders to gather Jewish people and ensure that they were taken there. Some German soldiers weren’t even connected to activities in the concentration camps at all, with their activities being directed elsewhere either by Adolf Hitler or one of their other greater authorities. Do you hold all German soldiers accountable for the killing of those Jewish people in the concentration camps simply because all German soldiers had Adolf Hitler as one of their greater authorities?

I think that would be something like holding all American soldiers accountable for the activities in that prison in Iraq where they were doing all those bad things to some of their prisoners, simply because they are all accountable to the President, and I’m sure you don’t accept that idea.

Anyway, I think your main argument is in trying to show that there are certain situations in which we should not follow the people who have been appointed as our greater authorities, and I can agree with that. But that still doesn’t diminish the fact that those people are our greater authorities and we should always be willing to follow them unless we are absolutely certain that what they are telling us to do is unrighteous. And even then we may not escape judgment from some greater authorities over those greater authorities, because sometimes an entire government is corrupt.

In other words, you might have to wait until the ultimate day of judgment before you know for sure that your rebellion and refusal to follow orders of your greater authorities was justified, as determined by our greatest authority of all.

And btw, not following a leader simply because they seem to be stuck on the idea that they are your leader, or that you should follow their directions without hesitation, doesn’t make them an unrighteous leader. And your greater authorities don’t have to be “nice” when giving you an order just so it will be easier for you to accept what they tell you to do. They should try to be nice, sure, if the occasion or circumstances allow that, but that isn't always the case or the way our leaders should always feel about the things they have to deal with.

In other words, if you ever think you can disregard an order or counsel from a greater authority simply and only because they aren’t being “nice” when telling you what you should do, you better be prepared with a better answer than that when you are called into question for rebelling or refusing to follow an order from a greater authority.

Saying "But they weren't being very nice" is simply not going to cut it.

[StrawberryFields]

Ray,

I formed a very lengthy rebuttal to the issue of submitting to people with Greater Authority. I believe I can sum it up without being mean and cutting and I can do it in less space.

Authority is a word I choose not to use but prefer leadership or leaders. We can always choose to follow a leader if that is our choice. Authority to me is someone who has some form of "control" over your choices. My choices will always have a consequence but they are my choices to make none the less. Freedom to choose was given to us in the war in heaven.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 10 2004, 09:58 AM

In other words, if you ever think you can disregard an order or counsel from a greater authority simply and only because they aren’t being “nice” when telling you what you should do, you better be prepared with a better answer than that when you are called into question for rebelling or refusing to follow an order from a greater authority.

Saying "But they weren't being very nice" is simply not going to cut it.

Ray. I think you've just rewritten this entire thread in your mind. By all means submit to all authority--good or bad, naughty or nice, no thinking on your part required. Knock yourself out! I won't try to reason with you on this topic anymore.

[Ray]

I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't agree with this:

...Anyway, I think your main argument is in trying to show that there are certain situations in which we should not follow the people who have been appointed as our greater authorities, and I can agree with that. But that still doesn’t diminish the fact that those people are our greater authorities and we should always be willing to follow them unless we are absolutely certain that what they are telling us to do is unrighteous. And even then we may not escape judgment from some greater authorities over those greater authorities, because sometimes an entire government is corrupt.

In other words, you might have to wait until the ultimate day of judgment before you know for sure that your rebellion and refusal to follow orders of your greater authorities was justified, as determined by our greatest authority of all.

As I said before, I sometimes wonder if I'll ever understand the way a woman thinks.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2004, 12:39 PM

Ray,

I formed a very lengthy rebuttal to the issue of submitting to people with Greater Authority. I believe I can sum it up without being mean and cutting and I can do it in less space.

Authority is a word I choose not to use but prefer leadership or leaders. We can always choose to follow a leader if that is our choice. Authority to me is someone who has some form of "control" over your choices. My choices will always have a consequence but they are my choices to make none the less. Freedom to choose was given to us in the war in heaven.

It sounds like you think the word “authority” is some kind of dirty word or something, perhaps because you have an inaccurate perception of what it is. And while it is somewhat accurate to refer to it as “some form of control people have over your choices”, I think it would more accurately be defined as “some form of power people have over your choice" to either submit to or reject a leader or authority figure.

In other words, while you can choose to either accept or reject someone as your leader or authority figure, the consequence of your choice to either submit to or reject that leader either limits or enhances that leader's power or ability to affect the outcome of your choice.

For instance, if you choose to submit to a leader, they are more likely to approve of your choice and continue to lead you, whereas if you choose to reject a leader, they are more likely to NOT approve of your choice and NOT lead you, leaving you to yourself or some other leader you have chosen to follow.

Get it now? Authority is a wonderful thing, and we should all seek to find the best leaders or authority figures available to us, because no matter what we choose, we are all following somebody... even if only ourself.

Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

All kingdoms have a law given;

And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

– D&C 89:29-39

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 10 2004, 03:31 PM

Get it now?

Ray. Please stop saying, "Get it now?" It's very patronizing and I know that you don't want to come across as a pompous a$$.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 10 2004, 04:31 PM

[

It sounds like you think the word “authority” is some kind of dirty word or something, perhaps because you have an inaccurate perception of what it is. And while it is somewhat accurate to refer to it as “some form of control people have over your choices”, I think it would more accurately be defined as “some form of power people have over your choice" to either submit to or reject a leader or authority figure.

Oh Raymond....

You just don't get it.

It doesn't matter if you use the word "Power or Control" in your definition of an "authority figure".

No one has power or control over my choices but me. I guess that makes me my own authority figure.

Yes, authority is a beautiful thing given this new information.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 10 2004, 07:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 10 2004, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 10 2004, 03:31 PM

Get it now?

Ray. Please stop saying, "Get it now?" It's very patronizing and I know that you don't want to come across as a pompous a$$.

He doesn't?

[Lindy]

I found this thread interesting.....authority figures, submission, following the "leader" no matter what..... I started to get a headache from trying to follow it all

My two cents: It doesnt' matter if the authority figure is your mother, father, grandparent or bishop/priest/preacher...etc - if you are told to do something that you think is wrong for you, than it probably is....and that is why God gave is the ability of choice. I know that there are parents, church leaders, school teachers, etc who are all considered "authority figures" who make really wrong choices, and bring down innocent children who follow them blindly because they trust them, and they have been told all their lives to obey the authority figures.

Wrong is wrong is wrong...authority or not.

I'm done

P.S. SF tell Hubby HAPPY LATE BIRTHDAY from me :)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Nov 11 2004, 01:17 AM

Wrong is wrong is wrong...authority or not.

I agree. I like to believe that most of our spiritual leaders are righteous and good. But this whole attitude of "obey, obey, obey" is absolutely mind numbing. There are way too many historical examples of evil leadership to make me anxious to just blindly follow any authority figure--except the Savior. We have God's words. We have the law. We have the Holy Ghost, we have our common sense. I don't believe in blind, unconditional obedience to mortals. Sorry Ray.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 11 2004, 08:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 11 2004, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Nov 11 2004, 01:17 AM

Wrong is wrong is wrong...authority or not.

I agree. I like to believe that most of our spiritual leaders are righteous and good. But this whole attitude of "obey, obey, obey" is absolutely mind numbing. There are way too many historical examples of evil leadership to make me anxious to just blindly follow any authority figure--except the Savior. We have God's words. We have the law. We have the Holy Ghost, we have our common sense. I don't believe in blind, unconditional obedience to mortals. Sorry Ray.

very well said Curvette thank you

[Ray]

Originally posted by lindy9556+Nov 12 2004, 07:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lindy9556 @ Nov 12 2004, 07:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Nov 11 2004, 08:11 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--lindy9556@Nov 11 2004, 01:17 AM

Wrong is wrong is wrong...authority or not.

I agree. I like to believe that most of our spiritual leaders are righteous and good. But this whole attitude of "obey, obey, obey" is absolutely mind numbing. There are way too many historical examples of evil leadership to make me anxious to just blindly follow any authority figure--except the Savior. We have God's words. We have the law. We have the Holy Ghost, we have our common sense. I don't believe in blind, unconditional obedience to mortals. Sorry Ray.

very well said Curvette thank you

The problem I see with this attitude is that it doesn’t allow for a recognition of someone as an authority. Is that what you really mean to say?

For instance, let’s go back to my example of a police officer.

When you see a police officer, don’t you automatically regard him as an authority figure? Or do you consider him to be someone equal in authority to yourself wearing a uniform?

And if he were to give you a traffic citation, don’t you consider that to be binding upon you? I’m assuming you want to be a law abiding citizen, of course. And then in response to receiving that citation, don’t you go to the courthouse and pay the fine? I’m assuming you are guilty, of course.

But even if you aren’t guilty, or don’t consider yourself to be guilty, don’t you then appeal to a higher authority, such as a judge? And if need be, to another higher authority, such as someone with more authority that that judge? You don’t simply regard the traffic citation as a worthless piece of paper that can righteously be ignored, do you? I’m assuming you don’t want to be a criminal, of course. And in doing all this, aren’t you in fact recognizing those people as authority figures?

So how can you tell me and the rest of the world reading this thread that there are no authorities over you because you can do whatever you want? Heh, are you trying to incite rebellions?

And btw, even if you did decide to regard these authority figures as persons with no greater authority than your own, so that you could do whatever you want regardless of what they say, that still doesn’t diminish the fact that those people do have authority over you and can bring you to justice. And if you doubt that, you will see that on a day of judgment.

I hope that you can all understand me now.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 10 2004, 06:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 10 2004, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 10 2004, 03:31 PM

Get it now?

Ray. Please stop saying, "Get it now?" It's very patronizing and I know that you don't want to come across as a pompous a$$.

No, I don't mean to be patronizing. I was simply trying to ask people if they understood me, in as few words as possible.

So which would you rather hear...

Am I making this point clear enough for you now?

or maybe even more simply...

Understand?

or maybe like that guy in the TV commercial...

Can you hear me now?

...or maybe you have another suggestion of your own?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2004, 08:32 PM

Oh Raymond....

Btw, Ray is one of my "real" or "official" names, and not Raymond.

But if you thought of that name because you think everybody here loves me, or Ray, I will take that as a compliment. :)

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 12 2004, 10:46 AM

For instance, let’s go back to my example of a police officer.

When you see a police officer, don’t you automatically regard him as an authority figure? Or do you consider him to be someone equal in authority to yourself wearing a uniform?

And if he were to give you a traffic citation, don’t you consider that to be binding upon you? I’m assuming you want to be a law abiding citizen, of course. And then in response to receiving that citation, don’t you go to the courthouse and pay the fine? I’m assuming you are guilty, of course.

But even if you aren’t guilty, or don’t consider yourself to be guilty, don’t you then appeal to a higher authority, such as a judge? And if need be, to another higher authority, such as someone with more authority that that judge? You don’t simply regard the traffic citation as a worthless piece of paper that can righteously be ignored, do you? I’m assuming you don’t want to be a criminal, of course. And in doing all this, aren’t you in fact recognizing those people as authority figures?

So how can you tell me and the rest of the world reading this thread that there are no authorities over you because you can do whatever you want? Heh, are you trying to incite rebellions?

And btw, even if you did decide to regard these authority figures as persons with no greater authority than your own, so that you could do whatever you want regardless of what they say, that still doesn’t diminish the fact that those people do have authority over you and can bring you to justice. And if you doubt that, you will see that on a day of judgment.

I hope that you can all understand me now.

Ray. You really are hung up on this. I'm not talking about a traffic ticket, I'm talking about following authority figures for the sake of following authority figures. I've had two traffic tickets in my life. The policemen were polite, and I WAS speeding. I paid both of them willingly because I deserved them. Even if I hadn't been guilty of them, I probably would have paid them anyway because they were in a different state, and it wouldn't have been worth the trouble of fighting them. Now, if the policeman had sexually assaulted me, or physically abused me, or acted in some other outrageous way, NO I wouldn't go along passively with it. That would be abusing his authority, and I would invoke my rights as a citizen to not have my civil rights violated.

If that attitude puts my in jeopardy at the judgement day, than all I can say is: I'm glad God will be my judge and not you.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 12 2004, 01:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 12 2004, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 12 2004, 10:46 AM

For instance, let’s go back to my example of a police officer. 

When you see a police officer, don’t you automatically regard him as an authority figure?  Or do you consider him to be someone equal in authority to yourself wearing a uniform? 

And if he were to give you a traffic citation, don’t you consider that to be binding upon you?  I’m assuming you want to be a law abiding citizen, of course.  And then in response to receiving that citation, don’t you go to the courthouse and pay the fine?  I’m assuming you are guilty, of course. 

But even if you aren’t guilty, or don’t consider yourself to be guilty, don’t you then appeal to a higher authority, such as a judge?  And if need be, to another higher authority, such as someone with more authority that that judge?  You don’t simply regard the traffic citation as a worthless piece of paper that can righteously be ignored, do you? I’m assuming you don’t want to be a criminal, of course.  And in doing all this, aren’t you in fact recognizing those people as authority figures?

So how can you tell me and the rest of the world reading this thread that there are no authorities over you because you can do whatever you want?  Heh, are you trying to incite rebellions?

And btw, even if you did decide to regard these authority figures as persons with no greater authority than your own, so that you could do whatever you want regardless of what they say, that still doesn’t diminish the fact that those people do have authority over you and can bring you to justice.  And if you doubt that, you will see that on a day of judgment.

I hope that you can all understand me now.

Ray. You really are hung up on this. I'm not talking about a traffic ticket, I'm talking about following authority figures for the sake of following authority figures. I've had two traffic tickets in my life. The policemen were polite, and I WAS speeding. I paid both of them willingly because I deserved them. Even if I hadn't been guilty of them, I probably would have paid them anyway because they were in a different state, and it wouldn't have been worth the trouble of fighting them. Now, if the policeman had sexually assaulted me, or physically abused me, or acted in some other outrageous way, NO I wouldn't go along passively with it. That would be abusing his authority, and I would invoke my rights as a citizen to not have my civil rights violated.

If that attitude puts my in jeopardy at the judgement day, than all I can say is: I'm glad God will be my judge and not you.

Thanks for the clarification. Now that I understand you a little better I think I can see where you're coming from a little better, but I still wonder if we are in total agreement.

Let's try another example now, one which is based a little more in the real world.

Suppose your bishop tells you to do something, and what he tells you in no way violates any law or any other counsel from our Lord. Suppose he tells you he wants you to read the Book of Mormon in 100 days, for instance. Would you do it, recognizing that he has the authority to guide you in your worship of our Lord, or would you say something like,

“That’s a good idea, but it’s just one of your own personal ideas, and since I really don’t want to do that right now I don’t think I will, nor that I should have to.” ???

In other words, do you recognize your bishop as one of your greater authorities, or is your recognition of him and what he says the same as your recognition of any other man.

And what about our prophet and President of the Church? Do you pick and choose from among what he tells you, only following what he says when you agree with him, when what he tells you is in no way opposed to other revelations from our Lord?

Basically, I’m trying to reach some consensus on whether or not you regard your [our] leaders as greater authorities, and how you determine when or if or how you should respond to them?

[Guest curvette]

I regard our church leaders as human beings who have accepted leadership callings to help further the Kingdom of God on earth. I enjoy being a part of helping that happen. As to whether I regard them as greater "authorities" (that word again...), obviously, in a way they are. I admire their faith, and sacrifices, and I try to be supportive. My husband is one of these people. I tend to be more supportive of "authorities" who I know personally. I've never said, "No, I won't do that" when asked for help with something (well, except for once, but that Bishop wasn't aware of the impossibility of his request.) I've been very lucky in that I've had wonderful Bishops. I don't doubt though, that if one made an absurd request of me and offered no explanation that made sense to me, unless I received a special dispensation from heaven, I'd probably respectfully decline. I don't believe in mind games or blind obedience.

[Ray]

In honor of your willingness to respond to my request for more information from you, I’m going to comment on your response and let you know more about how I feel about this issue. It may surprise you to know that we are in agreement more than you know.

I don't doubt though, that if one made an absurd request of me and offered no explanation that made sense to me, unless I received a special dispensation from heaven, I'd probably respectfully decline. I don't believe in mind games or blind obedience.

I’ve had an authority request something from me before that I didn’t totally agree with too, but when confronted with that situation I continued to talk to that person about his request and then consented to follow his will even though I still didn’t totally agree and understand why he was asking that from me. And then, after what I now consider to be a test of my faith, I came to understand that the request he made did make more sense than I previously imagined, and I was glad to know that I had enough respect for his authority to follow his counsel even though I didn’t understand the reasoning behind his request in the first place.

And btw, I purposely didn’t mention the details behind this encounter because I believe the principle behind this example can be applied to any situation, no matter what an authority may ask from me, as long as I have faith that the authority is acting within the scope of his authority. I wouldn’t blindly follow someone I didn’t recognize as an authority over me, though.

[shanstress70]

As a mother, I realize how detrimental this kind of thinking can be, Ray. In probably all churches, including the LDS church, children are sexually abused by people whom they think are 'in authority' over them. I would never tell my child that Bishop/Father/Pastor xxx is his authority figure, and what he says is always right, no matter what my child thinks. Authority figures (yes Ray, even in the LDS church) are still men (or women if in some churches) and are imperfect.

[shanstress70]

bump

Ray?