Feeling The Spirit

[Guest curvette]

Strawberry's thread about the spirit reminded me of something.

When I was a relatively new convert, I tried to convert all of my friends. They all admitted to admiring the changes I'd made in my life and agreed that I seemed like a much happier person. I took them to church, temple pagent, everything I could think of to expose them to the gospel. The thing that stunned me was that none of them ever felt "the spirit" at any of these events where the 'spirit' was so clearly evident to myself and many others there. I tried explaining the feeling to them and asked them if they could feel it and they just looked at me blankly. I've always wondered why, as a kid making really rotton choices, I was able to feel this life changing feeling, but none of my friends could. I was doing bad things, so it couldn't have been related to worthiness. I was never amenable to supernatural things--never saw any spirits or angels or anything remotely like that. At the time, they were all pretty screwed up and continued in that path.

Fast forward twenty years. All these people who were screwed up teenagers are now responsible, law abiding citizens. They have marriages, families, jobs and are doing well. Is it possible that some people simply are not wired to feel the "spirit" in their lives? Is it because we each have a different path to follow? Could it be that a human being could worthily fulfill their life mission without the LDS gospel, even if they've been exposed to it?

[Winnie G]

I know what you mean, I seen my family do the same that you describe.

Some are touched but at that time in their lives are not ready to give a commitment to a faith that requires so much.

I notice that my Jewish family side GETs IT and watch them weep when touched. My sister and I sat in the visitor center in LA after returning to pick me up from my trip to the Temple we watch the Legacy Video. She has a ranch and does wagon train enactments

She wept and was comforted took a book of Mormon home saying she would read it over the fire session when she had down time.

If you know my sister you would now that down time is sleep time nothing more. She is a driven woman, who is now struggling with cancer.

She has asked me to come and I will this spring. She asked for prayers and our faith to fast for her.

The world has a way of stopping people like my sister and others from taking the time and requirements to receive the gospel.

Some it is just not their time yet to feel the spirit, I don’t ask why any more I just accept.

[StrawberryFields]

I wish I knew the answer to your questions but I don't.

I know in my own life that there have been times when I am not able to feel the spirit. I feel very dark and zombie like. I have to work at keeping the spirit active in my life.

[Guest Starsky]

I wonder if it has more to do with your life's mission than worthiness...

Consider Paul on the road to Damascas to persecute the saints.

[Guest anardun]

There are a lot of good, hard questions on here. So I did some pondering and a little research in the scriptures, and here's some of my thoughts.

I took them to church, temple pagent, everything I could think of to expose them to the gospel. The thing that stunned me was that none of them ever felt "the spirit" at any of these events where the 'spirit' was so clearly evident to myself and many others there. I tried explaining the feeling to them and asked them if they could feel it and they just looked at me blankly.

Above all else, God honors agency: we can choose not to listen to or feel the spirit, just as we can choose to not agree with everything we hear.

In the scriptures, it tends to say that you need to 'heed' and 'hearken' to the spirit. Both of those are action verbs, meaning that some action is needed on our part to recieve the spirit. One block we can have to the spirit is if we get too caught up in the temperal and worldly things of this earth and neglect or forget the spiritual and eternal things of God (D&C 30:2). The sciptures also state that the Natural Man( a person without the spirit) won't recieve the things of the spirit, seeing them as foolish and 'you can't know', but they can be recieved through the spirit(1 Corinthians 2:14).

I've always wondered why, as a kid making really rotton choices, I was able to feel this life changing feeling, but none of my friends could. I was doing bad things, so it couldn't have been related to worthiness. I was never amenable to supernatural things--never saw any spirits or angels or anything remotely like that. At the time, they were all pretty screwed up and continued in that path.

Supernatural and spiritual are not really the same thing. Spiritual experiences don't have to be spectacular to be powerful or important, in fact they usually aren't. The spirit is often discribed as a still small voice. Whether we hear/feel the spirit doesn't have to do with our being 'worthy', just with whether we are listening. If we could only feel the spirit when we were perfect, there would be no such thing as a conscience. And then where would we be?

Also, one of the reasons for the spirit is to teach and instruct us. This would be a rather pointless job if the spirit couldn't reach anyone who was making rotten choices. Hey, we all make those--he wouldn't have anybody to visit!

All these people who were screwed up teenagers are now responsible, law abiding citizens. They have marriages, families, jobs and are doing well.

To start with, the scriptures are full of examples of how 'doing well' and being 'successful' aren't the same as true happiness or personal righteousness. Job, Joseph of Egypt and Alma the Elder are all prime examples of how the Lord works on making people 'successful' on the inside. Fame and fortune may come later, they're just not as important.

Is it possible that some people simply are not wired to feel the "spirit" in their lives?

I don't think that's possible. Part of every person's being is spirit(D&C 93:33) and spirit really is tangible matter(D&C 131:7) just like our physical earth. How would we not be 'wired' to feel the spirit? It's really not all that foreign to us.

Also, the Lord commands us to seek and hearken to the spirit (Romans 8:1-4; 1 Corinthians 12:7(1-11); Galatians 5:16(16-25); Ephesians 5:18; D&C 11: 12). How could He command it unless it is possible?(1 Nephi 3:7) For all of us?

Is it because we each have a different path to follow? Could it be that a human being could worthily fulfill their life mission without the LDS gospel, even if they've been exposed to it?

Because we all agreed to the same Plan before coming to earth, the only path to fulfil our life mission is the strait and narrow path that leads back to God through Our Savior, Christ. We need the spirit's guidence to help us stay on that track, and to teach us when we go wrong.

The Gospel isn't the gospel of LDS(Latter Day Saints), but the gospel of Jesus Christ. His name is the only one we can be saved through(Acts 4:10-12; Moses 6:52). Basically, our life mission is to become perfect, even as God is perfect (Matthew 5:48; 3 Nephi 12:48). We are made perfect through Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:28; D&C 76:69). So, we can only fulfil our life mission with Christ's help.

The world has a way of stopping people like my sister and others from taking the time and requirements to receive the gospel.

Yes, Satan(the Devil) does everything in his power to keep us from the truth and esp. the gospel. But, with God we are far more powerful than Satan could ever hope to be-so don't let the Devil win!

just a thought: maybe when you visit your sister, you could read the Book of Mormon out loud to her. That way she could still read it, like she wanted. It would also have the added plus of being able to share it together. It's a thought... :)

[Behunin]

Originally posted by anardun@Feb 2 2004, 03:08 AM

The sciptures also state that the Natural Man( a person without the spirit) won't recieve the things of the spirit, seeing them as foolish and 'you can't know', but they can be recieved through the spirit(1 Corinthians 2:14).

A clearer definition of the natural man is one who depends on his/her senses to define and judge the world. So to be sensual is to be a natural man. To only understand literally is to be a natural man.

There are many LDS people (including myself, at one time) who feel their church membership keeps them from being natural men. There are many who claim church membership and stand right in the middle of the great and spacious building.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Behunin@Feb 2 2004, 07:05 AM

A clearer definition of the natural man is one who depends on his/her senses to define and judge the world. So to be sensual is to be a natural man. To only understand literally is to be a natural man.

There are many LDS people (including myself, at one time) who feel their church membership keeps them from being natural men. There are many who claim church membership and stand right in the middle of the great and spacious building.

I don't know if it was just the ward I was living in at the time but I remember in the 80's when this became such a focus.

I could be way out in left field AGAIN but to have a part of the natural man within us is to be human. The phrase was used in my ward..."To put off the natural man". I think to be able to control the natural man in our own lives, could help us greatly in living by the spirit.

Who wants to live their life without being sensual?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by anardun@Feb 2 2004, 02:08 AM

we can choose not to listen to or feel the spirit, just as we can choose to not agree with everything we hear.

In the scriptures, it tends to say that you need to 'heed' and 'hearken' to the spirit. Both of those are action verbs, meaning that some action is needed on our part to recieve the spirit.

Because of my experiences I completely disagree with this. I did absolutely nothing to "heed" or "hearken" to the spirit. There was absolutely no action on my part when I first felt the spirit. I was not looking for it, I wasn't expecting it, I didn't even know what it was. If I recall, Paul (Saul) didn't hearken to it either until the Lord appeared to him personally. It would be more in keeping with our doctrines to think it had to do with choice, but I made no choice. It may usually or sometimes be a conscious choice, but it certainly wasn't in my case. It was just there and I perceived it. How could you choose to block out or recognize something that you don't even know about?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Feb 2 2004, 09:27 AM

Who wants to live their life without being sensual?

Amen to that sister! I love the physical world! I think the point though is that we need to include the spiritual realm in order to completely experience the world. I think many people think that means that we need to neglect or ignore that we are physical beings. To do this, IMHO, is to disrespect God who gave us our bodies. I think we should experience life with all of our senses(including our spiritual senses) as long as we have them!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin+Feb 2 2004, 06:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Behunin @ Feb 2 2004, 06:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--anardun@Feb 2 2004, 03:08 AM

The sciptures also state that the Natural Man( a person without the spirit) won't recieve the things of the spirit, seeing them as foolish and 'you can't know', but they can be recieved through the spirit(1 Corinthians 2:14).

A clearer definition of the natural man is one who depends on his/her senses to define and judge the world. So to be sensual is to be a natural man. To only understand literally is to be a natural man.

There are many LDS people (including myself, at one time) who feel their church membership keeps them from being natural men. There are many who claim church membership and stand right in the middle of the great and spacious building.

So true.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 2 2004, 09:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 2 2004, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Feb 2 2004, 09:27 AM

Who wants to live their life without being sensual?

Amen to that sister! I love the physical world! I think the point though is that we need to include the spiritual realm in order to completely experience the world. I think many people think that means that we need to neglect or ignore that we are physical beings. To do this, IMHO, is to disrespect God who gave us our bodies. I think we should experience life with all of our senses(including our spiritual senses) as long as we have them!

I agree. I don't believe that living the fulness of the gospel could ever exclude the physical body....

I believe putting off the natural man is referring to 'worldly obsessions'.

Over eating or perversions in physical realtionships with others...such as tortures and rape....IOW doing things drive the Spirit away. Normal and even sensually satisfying love making, is far from wrong or ungodly.

The Spirit has everything to do with 'feeling' satisfied to the fullest....sexually with your eternal partner.

[Cal]

Now you are starting to make some sense, Peace! For a while there I was beginning to think you were totally off in the clouds somewhere.

[Jenda]

Mosiah gives us different admonition. His counsel is to put off the Adam (naturall man) in order to make ourselves acceptable to Christ, to receive the Holy Spirit.

Mosiah 1:118-120 RLDS (3:18-19 LDS)

118 But men drink damnation to their own souls, except they humble themselves, and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent:

119 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been, from the fall of Adam, and will be, for ever and ever;

120 But if he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint, through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

I find that I experience the Holy Spirit most through two separate disciplines. First is when I am in service to others. The second is when I am trying hardest to follow His commandments (all of them)(part of which is being in service to others. )

[Cal]

So all the people that lived before Adam were NOT enemies of God, just the ones after?

[Ray]

Jenda,

Great sex involves doing something to please someone else, specifically, your spouse. The more you are concerned with helping them to be happy and fulfilled, the more you will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, and the happier you will be. And when you and your spouse both have the happiness of each other in mind, and you are both doing things to please the other, the results are…unspeakable joy!

Cal,

“from the fall of Adam” implies from the beginning of Man. Adam was the first Man on this Earth, other than God, and there were no enemies of God on this Earth before that.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 3 2004, 08:58 PM

So all the people that lived before Adam were NOT enemies of God, just the ones after?

HUH?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 3 2004, 09:13 PM

Jenda,

Great sex involves doing something to please someone else, specifically, your spouse. The more you are concerned with helping them to be happy and fulfilled, the more you will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, and the happier you will be. And when you and your spouse both have the happiness of each other in mind, and you are both doing things to please the other, the results are…unspeakable joy!

Ummm.............. I wasn't implying that one shouldn't have sex (Heaven forbid! That is my greatest pleasure after serving the Lord! B) )

I fully believe that under the covenant of marriage that sex is fully condoned by the Lord. Not only that, but I believe that God should be invited into every aspect of your marriage. Back in the days of Christ, they had temple prostitutes so you could give your "sacrifices" to the Lord in every way. I wouldn't think of offering that kind of sacrifice, , but the marriage bed should be part of our thanksgiving to the Lord.

My previous post was meant to mean that in the "putting off of the Adam", one is repenting of their sins and opening their life up to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It means to put off that which is natural (sinning) and taking upon you that which is holy.

Sorry for the confusion. And don't ever put those particular words in my mouth again!!!

[StrawberryFields]

Ray and Jenda,

You two are great....

You have brought a SMILE to my face.

[Marsha]

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 3 2004, 09:13 PM

Great sex involves doing something to please someone else, specifically, your spouse. The more you are concerned with helping them to be happy and fulfilled, the more you will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, and the happier you will be. And when you and your spouse both have the happiness of each other in mind, and you are both doing things to please the other, the results are…unspeakable joy!

I will just say that I agree with every fiber of my being....and just leave it at that!

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 3 2004, 09:13 PM

Jenda,

Great sex involves doing something to please someone else, specifically, your spouse. The more you are concerned with helping them to be happy and fulfilled, the more you will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, and the happier you will be. And when you and your spouse both have the happiness of each other in mind, and you are both doing things to please the other, the results are…unspeakable joy!

Cal,

“from the fall of Adam” implies from the beginning of Man. Adam was the first Man on this Earth, other than God, and there were no enemies of God on this Earth before that.

So the people that the children of Adam married were..........?

And the human skeltons found in caves 10's to 100's of thousands of years old were.........?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Feb 5 2004, 09:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Feb 5 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Feb 3 2004, 09:13 PM

Jenda,

Great sex involves doing something to please someone else, specifically, your spouse.  The more you are concerned with helping them to be happy and fulfilled, the more you will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, and the happier you will be.  And when you and your spouse both have the happiness of each other in mind, and you are both doing things to please the other, the results are…unspeakable joy!

Cal,

“from the fall of Adam” implies from the beginning of Man.  Adam was the first Man on this Earth, other than God, and there were no enemies of God on this Earth before that.

So the people that the children of Adam married were..........?

And the human skeltons found in caves 10's to 100's of thousands of years old were.........?

There are very substantial explanations, such as Adam living for nearly 1000 years and having children all of that time. Imagine twins or triblets being born during 1000 years and how many people that could probagate in just 100 years time.

It didn't ever state that Adams children were as old as he was, or were marrying while he was young.

In fact marrying didn't take place until they were around 70 years old. During 70 years there could be lots of children born to marry one with another...as they were the first and only people of the earth.

Now, as to the skeletons...and the process of carbon dating and other like processes...that is a whole other subject, which is even more questionable than the story of Adam.

Plus, we know that in the story Genesis we must understand the term 'created.'

[Cal]

Peace--so what does the word "created" mean in Genesis?

By the way, how is radio-isotope dating less reliable than Genesis? No one even knows who wrote Genesis. No one even has a copy of the original writing. It contains numerous stories that can't possibly be literally true. No one even knows to what to extent the stories in Genesis were allogorical and there is no one to check with as to the origin of these stories and they contain numerous contradictions.

So how does this make Genesis more reliable than a process that can be observed DIRECTLY, confirmed by any one with the right technical equipment, and agreed upon as reliable by the vast majority of physicists, geologists and paleontologists?

[Guest estump]

Behuin:

I feel like a natural woman and I LIKE it!

Staying on topic ROCKS!

I think we all go through phases in our lives, regardless of religion. Different things move different people. Some people are just more spiritual than others.

I did the same thing as you Curvette, whilst in High School. None of my friends joined and the only time they felt 'moved' was when I sang. It didnt' matter what song I sang...but they felt connected to something then.

I myself am learning how to recognize spiritual experiences. I certainly haven't been practicing lately. I read my scriptures (a verse or three) a few times a week if I think about it. I pray a lot, but not in the normal sense. I just talk w/ God all day long. I have no specific structure and I don't like structures. However I am an emotional person and I am moved more often by a great many number of things. Maybe they are simply moved by other things and maybe it has a lot to do w/ the setting. I am a nature freak. I am more likely to feel the spirit or commune w/ God on a hike than on Sunday. Sundays I am running around like a chicken w/ my head cut off. I rarely feel refreshed! This is why I love Monday. I use Monday to commune and do what I wish I could do on Sunday!

I am babbling and I realize I totally gave you no answer! Forgive me!

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by estump@Feb 7 2004, 02:56 PM

I am a nature freak. I am more likely to feel the spirit or commune w/ God on a hike than on Sunday. Sundays I am running around like a chicken w/ my head cut off. I rarely feel refreshed! This is why I love Monday. I use Monday to commune and do what I wish I could do on Sunday!

I am babbling and I realize I totally gave you no answer! Forgive me!

Nothing to forgive dear. How are you doing by the way? I agree 100% with you on this topic. I can't usually feel the spirit (now that I'm a family gal) inside a building of any kind nearly as clearly as when I'm up in the mountain skiing. God's gorgeous mountains, snow covered trees, blue sky above, angel hair clouds sitting on top of the valley, the wind in my face...it makes me want to explode with gratitude when I'm up there! Why anyone would ever choose a building over God's own natural temple is beyond my understanding!