Zelph and the land of cumorah

[Hemidakota]

[e-mail]

By Doctor Jerry Ainsworth

Since living in Salt Lake City during the last three months, I have had the opportunity to speak with a variety of people concerning The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni. Invariably when we engage in this discussion I am asked about the view that the Book of Mormon took place, at least partially, around the great lakes. Principle among those questions, indeed challenges is the account of Zelph.

I have therefore decided to revisit this account and share my views on what this account may imply and what it may not. At the on-set, let me say that I accept the fact that the Prophet Joseph Smith did indeed identify the bones that were exhumed as being the remains of an ancient man named Zelph.

The thrust of the questions posed to me about this account is that the event is proof that the battle of Cumorah took place in or around the banks of the Missouri river. I will present the essentials of the story as given in Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Zelph incident event took place in June of 1834. There are seven written accounts of what the Prophet Joseph Smith said, when shown the remains of this man. Joseph Smith himself never recorded the account. Joseph Fielding Smith quotes Wilford Woodruff’s account, which is the only account of the seven that mentions Cumorah. The other six accounts simple state that Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus, who was known from the eastern seaboard, to the Rocky Mountains. I will give Wilford Woodruff’s account, as presented in Joseph Fielding Smith’s book.

“The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and a chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part – one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before is death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.”

Joseph Fielding Smith also quotes the account in Heber C. Kimball’s journal, to wit:

“While on our way we felt anxious to know who the person was who had been killed by that arrow. It was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph.”

You will notice that Heber C. Kimball’s journal does not mention Cumorah, nor did any of the other five men who made journal entries of this event. Cumorah is only mentioned in the account of Wilford Woodruff. Most scholars conclude that the term “Cumorah” was added to the comments of Joseph, as the writer just assumed Missouri was the land of Cumorah. Evidence of this is that the account mentioned in the other six journals, do not indicate that the prophet Joseph included the name Cumorah. For more documentation and insight on this issue, see In Search of Cumorah by David Palmer.

Excluding the mention of Cumorah, which is assumed to be an errant entry, here is a summary of the several facets of this event:

1. Zelph was a white Lamanite

2. Zelph was a Lamanite warrior/chieftain, and a man of God

3. Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus

4. Zelph was killed in the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites

5. Zelph was killed by a Lamanitish arrow

Looking over these five points, I ask, “Is there anything in these five points that would lead me to conclude that this warrior was killed in the battle of Cumorah?” The answer is “No, there is nothing that would lead me to believe that, indeed, just the contrary.”

According to Mormon, there were no Nephites or Lamanites that were “men of God,” during his tenure as commander of the Nephite nation.

In 4 Nephi 1:45-46 Mormon writes:

“And it came to pass that when three hundred years had passed away, both the people of Nephi and the Lamanites had become exceeding wicked one like unto another.”

“And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus…”

These two verses from Mormon make it clear that during his life time, there were no “men of God,” in the lands of the Book of Mormon, either Nephite or Lamanite. The one exception to this statement was the Three Disciples, who were themselves removed soon after this was written by Mormon. If there were no “men of God,” among the Lamanites or Nephites during Mormon’s day, that pretty well excludes a Lamanite warrior, (man of God), being killed at the battle of Cumorah, indeed a man of God of either group. It certainly excludes a Lamanite that was so righteous that he had turned white.

This leads me to believe that Zelph may have been a Lamanite man of God, but was not killed during the battle of Cumorah, which addresses and explains items # 1 and # 2.

Item # 3 indicates that Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus and this prophet was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. During Mormon’s day, the Lamanites did not serve under a prophet of any kind. They served under the very wicked King Aaron, (see Mormon 2:9 and Mormon 6:2).

Onandagus was a righteous prophet of God, while the King and commander of the Lamanites, King Aaron was a wicked and brutal cannibal, (see Moroni 9:7-10).

Not only were the Nephite and Lamanite armies devoid of any men of God, but Mormon says of them, “And there never had been so great wickedness among all the children of Lehi, nor even among all the house of Israel, according to the words of the Lord, as among this people.”

Mormon is not describing conditions in which a Lamanite warrior would lose his dark skin color because of his being a man of God. Nor is he describing a prophet who would have been the commander of a Lamanite warrior, such as the one named Zelph.

In item # 4, the account indicates that Zelph was killed in the last great struggle between the Nephites and Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah was not the last great struggle between the Nephites and the Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah took place in AD 385.

The struggle in which Mormon was killed, took place in AD 399, some fourteen years later, (see Moroni 9:24 and Mormon 8:1-8). Mormon had been chased by the Lamanites for fourteen years after the battle of Cumorah and assumedly he had traveled many miles from Cumorah during those fourteen years.

Not only did the Lamanites and Nephites continue to have military struggles after Cumorah, culminating in the death of Mormon, but the Lamanites continued to chase Moroni for an additional 21 years. During those years, the Lamanites “put to death every Nephite who would *not deny the Christ.” (see Moroni 1:1-2)

And lastly, item # 5, which states that Zelph was killed by a Lamanite arrow. Why would Lamanites be killing Lamanites?

*I remind the reader that the 3rd chapter of Helaman states that during the time period of BC 50 to BC 40, thousands of Nephites and Lamanites, (People of Ammon) had left the lands of the Nephites and Lamanites and gone into the land northward to get away from the wars of these two groups. Lamanites (the People of Ammon) would therefore have been in the land northward for almost 400 years before Mormon was chased in that direction after the battle of Cumorah.

So, there were no righteous Nephites or Lamanites in their lands, (the land southward). There were however, still righteous Nephites and Lamanites in the land northward. Proof of this can be found in Moroni 1:1-2 where the Lamanites are putting to death every Nephite who “will not deny the Christ,” and in Moroni 7:1-5, where Mormon is preaching to members of the church who are going to the Celestial Kingdom and who he represents as “having a peaceful walk with the children of men.” In other words, the People of Ammon, who were certainly people of God and who did lived in the land northward, could have easily migrated as far as Missouri, during these 400 years. They were just not part of the Nephite or Lamanite nation, per se.

Not only does Helaman indicate these righteous Lamanites went into the land northward along with thousands of Nephites, but states “there were many of the people of Ammon, who were Lamanites by birth, did also go forth into this land. And now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them.”

We therefore know that during Mormon’s day there were righteous Nephites and righteous Lamanites living in the land northward, and were still living the gospel. Not only had they separated them selves from the Nephite and Lamanite nations, but they were keeping their own records. I suggest they probably also had a prophet who led them – one different from Mormon.

I suggest this prophet’s name could have been Onandagus. If there was indeed a person from the People of Ammon serving as a warrior under a prophet named Onandagus, it could explain two things. It could explain how this Lamanite was a man of God. It could also explain how he had lost the curse of dark skin. From what little we are told about the People of Ammon they were certainly people who lived the gospel.

This could also explain why Zelph had been killed by a Lamanite arrow. Even though he was a Lamanite, remember the wicked Lamanites hated the People of Ammon because of their belief in the teachings of the Savior. Therefore it would make sense to me for those Lamanites who had been chasing Moroni for 21 years to encounter a Lamanite warrior, (from the People of Ammon), who was a man of God, a Lamanite warrior named Zelph. I assume the Lamanites chasing Moroni, would want to put such a man to death.

Putting the story in this context, all of the five points of the story identified by me, now make sense. They don’t make sense, if you attempt to force this story into the battle of Cumorah.

I believe the remains of a Lamanite warrior, who was a man of God, was discovered on the banks of the Missouri river. I believe that the Prophet Joseph did identify him as Zelph, and that he was involved in the last struggle between the Lamanites and Nephites. That struggle was in the lands of the Missouri river, some 36 years after, and thousands of miles from the location of the battle of Cumorah. The remains of Zelph were therefore not found in the lands of Cumorah, but in the north countries. (see Ether 1:1).

NOTE:

It will be noted that Helaman 3:13 indicates that the People of Ammon, who went into the land northward 400 years before Moroni was there, were keeping their own records. One would assume that the People of Ammon were also keeping their records on gold plates. This may explain where Moroni got the additional gold plates he needed in order to finish his record, as there was almost no space left on the plates his father gave him.

(see Mormon 8:5)

[newlight]

Thanks for the post. The way you've backed everything with scriptures makes complete sense.

[Hemidakota]

It wasn't me but Jerry who has that pondering thought process. I just receives his e-mails and converse with him on other objects of the Gospel.

[Justice]

There are a few points I would question, or seek more information about, before any conclusion could be made. here is the first one that jumped out at me from what I read and remember.

According to Mormon, there were no Nephites or Lamanites that were “men of God,” during his tenure as commander of the Nephite nation.

This is not actually true. 4th Nephi ended about the year 321, which is the time period Mormon made that statement. This is the same time Ammaron hid up the plates in the hill Shim. Mormon was about 10, and was made leader of the Nephite army 5 years later. So, in about the year 326 Mormon writes:

WoMormon 1:

8 And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, who consisted of the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites; and this war was between the Nephites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites.

This was the beginning of the time of the great and last war referred to by Joseph Smith, 5 years after Mormon commented there were none righteous. Mormon had a church and was teaching and preaching. Moroni told of how they called priests and teachers and people were baptized. So, there began again to be righteous among them, including Moroni.

Now, this war began about 326 and lasted until about 385 and covered a large portion of the land "north." There's no telling exactly where it began and where it ended. It appears to me that Zelph was killed during this last and great battle that spanned from 321 to 385, and was killed when they crossed that spot of land as they were fleeing from the Lamanites. It does not mean he was alive and took place in the final battle of Cumorah. They may very well have ended up in New York before that last day when 320,000 of the Nephites were slain in a single day.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Justice

[rameumptom]

Justice wrote: It does not mean he was alive and took place in the final battle of Cumorah. They may very well have ended up in New York before that last day when 320,000 of the Nephites were slain in a single day.

Except that Ainsworth, and most LDS scholars do not believe the Cumorah battle happened in New York state, but in Mesoamerica! Ainsworth's concept is that Mormon was wounded at the battle of Cumorah in Mesoamerica, and went with Moroni elsewhere for almost 15 years. We find Moroni and Mormon giving several farewells, because they really don't know when they are done with the record and their lives. In one farewell, dated about 400 AD, Moroni states:

Moroni 8:1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.

2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.

4 Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.

5 Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

6 Behold, *four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Savior.

His father has finally been killed by the Lamanites - sometime AFTER the Cumorah battle.

Tradition states that Moroni wandered more, for 21 more years after this. Brigham Young claimed that Moroni had dedicated the spot upon which the Manti Temple is situated for a future temple. So we can figure he went through the American southwest. We also know that Moroni buried the plates in the New York Hill Cumorah - named by Oliver Cowdery as an assumption, never so named by the angel. It would have been easy for him to pass by other groups, as he noted that the Lamanites were battling amongst themselves for years.

It is possible that the destruction of the Nephites at the Mesoamerican Cumorah was not the "final" battle. In fact, the evidence shows the battles continuing in the north. As Jerry Ainsworth notes, many people had moved into the northern lands. Over 400 years, they could have expanded further and further, integrating with many tribes already present. Onandagus most likely was an Ammonite, as was Zelph; as we do not have evidence of any other white Lamanites going north.

Whether Moroni ran into Onandagus or another with extra plates is, of course, speculation. Somehow, Moroni did obtain the ability to make more plates. If he didn't have the skill to mine and create the plates, he would have had to find someone with that skill. It is as likely to have been the Ammonites in the north, as anyone else.

How famous Onandagus really was is also conjecture. Remember, the vast majority of people were wicked Lamanites and Nephites. They may have heard of Onandagus, but would have only sought to kill him, as they sought to slay Mormon.

Interestingly, the name Onandagus is more of a tribes North American Indian name, than a BoM name. This shows evidence of inter-mingling with the locals over the 400 years of moving northward.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks for your input....:)

[Justice]

Yes, but if we assume this story of Zelph is true, they were already at the Missouri when Mormon was alive. This could have been closer to 322, or closer to 385... no one knows.

His father has finally been killed by the Lamanites - sometime AFTER the Cumorah battle.

When I read the story of Cumorah in the Book of Mormon, it appears to me that Moromon, and the other 22 that survived that fateful day (besides Moroni), were killed fairly quickly after that day. By the dates in the scriptures, it would have to be no longer than 14 or so years, presumably much faster.

CHAPTER 8

The Lamanites seek out and destroy the Nephites—The Book of Mormon shall come forth by the power of God—Woes pronounced upon those who breathe out wrath and strife against the work of the Lord—The Nephite record shall come forth in a day of wickedness, degeneracy, and apostasy. Between A.D. 400 and 421

1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.

2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.

There wasn't much need for Moroni carry all those plates around with him. It looks like he wandered around and then back to where the plates were so he could finish his father's record. Those plates were heavy and there were many different sets. My guess is he wandered back to the place of battle in those last 14 or 15 years and finished the record of his father, abridged Ether, and wrote a few last words shortly before he re-buried them. If Mormon didn't think he was going to write much more, it could possibly have been him that prepared the stone box and buried everything, or Moroni did under his direction. Their greatest fear was letting those plates fall in to the hands of the Lamanites who would destroy them. My guess is they buried and sealed them up before that last dreadful day. It would have been a good strategy to buy time for this by asking the Lamanite commander for time, which he did only once. I think it was then, after he asked for time to gather his people to Cumorah, that he prepared the box and buried all the plates. At that point, Moroni did not know he was going to be asked at a future day to unearth them and write more. As far as they knew, they would all be dead the next day. My guess is Moroni did not have time, nor did he want to take the chance of unearthing them, while many Lamanites were in the area. So, after the battle he fled with no plates, and only returned to unearth them after it was safe, and after he was commanded to do so, in the year 420 or so.

There was plenty of time while everyone was alive during that last struggle with the Lamanites, even if the story of Zelph is true, for the camp to have reached upper state New York. Besides, it seems like a good place to make a stand, knowing you're nearing the end of your land and can't run much farther. It seems they wouldn't want to make it much closer to water and cut off their way of retreat (if any were to survive). It was more important to Mormon to have a good hiding spot for the records than it was for him to save his own life. Besides, it would seem the Lord would lead Mormon to the spot where Joseph Smith would live later, which would have led him to the upper east coast.

I think there is very good evidence in the Book of Mormon that Cumorah could very well have been the Cumorah we know. It doesn't have to be, however, and it certainly wouldn't shake my testimony if we learn it wasn't.

The one thing that will stand as evidence is that 230,000 Nephites, and an untold number of Lamanites, died on that spot. Evidence like that is very hard to hide.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Justice

[rameumptom]

Moroni sits down several times to "finish" his father's record. He first thinks he is finishing it in Moroni 8.

1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.

He writes this around 400 AD, 15 years AFTER the battle at Cumorah. Sometime in that 15 year period, Mormon died. Whether it was soon after the battle, or long afterward, is immaterial. The point is, Moroni wandered for 15 years up to this point.

He states he has no plates to continue the record. So I assume he plans on ending it with Mormon 9.

Then, in Ether 1, he suddenly has at least 24 plates to write the Book of Ether abridgement. This must have been at a later date than his writing in Mormon 8-9.

In Moroni 1, he writes:

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.

3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

This is obviously later than his writing of Ether, which must have taken him at least a few weeks to write, not including the time to obtain the ore to make the plates.

Here he states he has been in hiding, thinking he doesn't have the opportunity to write more, because he is constantly on the move. Yet, he finds a safe place where he can write his book. I suspect this was done in the New York area, circa 421, when he was finally ready to bury the plates.

Mormon 6:6 is suggestive that the hill Cumorah was where the vast record collection was hidden up. No where does it state that Moroni hid the plates in the same hill. Given the concept that Moroni was in Manti at one point, it doesn't make sense that he would travel back to New York, just to bury the plates. This is especially true, since those Nephites running to the south for safety were being caught and killed.

The original Cumorah was in Mesoamerica. Mormon died sometime between 385 and 400 AD, after the battle of Cumorah. Moroni wandered with just the plates given him by his father. He buried them in the New York hill Cumorah in 421 AD, after adding a few more items.

[Justice]

Good discussion. Of course it is possible that Moroni gathered up the entire collection of things that were hidden up before that last day of battle, and carried them to upper state New York (I don't believe they would NOT have hidden them up before that last day). It just seems like a simpler and more logical explanation for Moroni that he went back to the spot they were buried and only took what he needed to finish the record. This way he knew they were safe, and didn't know if he was going to get the chance to write in them.

Had there been more empty plates, and he was carrying them around with him, it seems like he would have known that. Mormon had control of them before that last day, suggesting Moroni didn't know much about them when he "sat down to finish his father's record" in Mormon 8. It seems most other authors tells who they give the plates to, but Mormon didn't, making it appear he didn't know any more would be written. Even Mormon told of how he got the plates from Ammaron. It "appears" that Mormon buried them *for good* before that last day. That's one strong impression I've had as I've studied this section of the book.

Thanks for the discussion. I obviously don't know what happened, I just like to ponder about events and picture them in my mind and how they may have happened. I've discovered a lot of interesting things doing this.

[Hemidakota]

"The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert

[Moksha]

That guy who wrote Passage to Zarahemla should write a book on Zelph.

[jadams_4040]

[e-mail]

By Doctor Jerry Ainsworth

Since living in Salt Lake City during the last three months, I have had the opportunity to speak with a variety of people concerning The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni. Invariably when we engage in this discussion I am asked about the view that the Book of Mormon took place, at least partially, around the great lakes. Principle among those questions, indeed challenges is the account of Zelph.

I have therefore decided to revisit this account and share my views on what this account may imply and what it may not. At the on-set, let me say that I accept the fact that the Prophet Joseph Smith did indeed identify the bones that were exhumed as being the remains of an ancient man named Zelph.

The thrust of the questions posed to me about this account is that the event is proof that the battle of Cumorah took place in or around the banks of the Missouri river. I will present the essentials of the story as given in Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, by Joseph Fielding Smith.

The Zelph incident event took place in June of 1834. There are seven written accounts of what the Prophet Joseph Smith said, when shown the remains of this man. Joseph Smith himself never recorded the account. Joseph Fielding Smith quotes Wilford Woodruff’s account, which is the only account of the seven that mentions Cumorah. The other six accounts simple state that Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus, who was known from the eastern seaboard, to the Rocky Mountains. I will give Wilford Woodruff’s account, as presented in Joseph Fielding Smith’s book.

“The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and a chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part – one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before is death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.”

Joseph Fielding Smith also quotes the account in Heber C. Kimball’s journal, to wit:

“While on our way we felt anxious to know who the person was who had been killed by that arrow. It was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph.”

You will notice that Heber C. Kimball’s journal does not mention Cumorah, nor did any of the other five men who made journal entries of this event. Cumorah is only mentioned in the account of Wilford Woodruff. Most scholars conclude that the term “Cumorah” was added to the comments of Joseph, as the writer just assumed Missouri was the land of Cumorah. Evidence of this is that the account mentioned in the other six journals, do not indicate that the prophet Joseph included the name Cumorah. For more documentation and insight on this issue, see In Search of Cumorah by David Palmer.

Excluding the mention of Cumorah, which is assumed to be an errant entry, here is a summary of the several facets of this event:

1. Zelph was a white Lamanite

2. Zelph was a Lamanite warrior/chieftain, and a man of God

3. Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus

4. Zelph was killed in the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites

5. Zelph was killed by a Lamanitish arrow

Looking over these five points, I ask, “Is there anything in these five points that would lead me to conclude that this warrior was killed in the battle of Cumorah?” The answer is “No, there is nothing that would lead me to believe that, indeed, just the contrary.”

According to Mormon, there were no Nephites or Lamanites that were “men of God,” during his tenure as commander of the Nephite nation.

In 4 Nephi 1:45-46 Mormon writes:

“And it came to pass that when three hundred years had passed away, both the people of Nephi and the Lamanites had become exceeding wicked one like unto another.”

“And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus…”

These two verses from Mormon make it clear that during his life time, there were no “men of God,” in the lands of the Book of Mormon, either Nephite or Lamanite. The one exception to this statement was the Three Disciples, who were themselves removed soon after this was written by Mormon. If there were no “men of God,” among the Lamanites or Nephites during Mormon’s day, that pretty well excludes a Lamanite warrior, (man of God), being killed at the battle of Cumorah, indeed a man of God of either group. It certainly excludes a Lamanite that was so righteous that he had turned white.

This leads me to believe that Zelph may have been a Lamanite man of God, but was not killed during the battle of Cumorah, which addresses and explains items # 1 and # 2.

Item # 3 indicates that Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus and this prophet was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. During Mormon’s day, the Lamanites did not serve under a prophet of any kind. They served under the very wicked King Aaron, (see Mormon 2:9 and Mormon 6:2).

Onandagus was a righteous prophet of God, while the King and commander of the Lamanites, King Aaron was a wicked and brutal cannibal, (see Moroni 9:7-10).

Not only were the Nephite and Lamanite armies devoid of any men of God, but Mormon says of them, “And there never had been so great wickedness among all the children of Lehi, nor even among all the house of Israel, according to the words of the Lord, as among this people.”

Mormon is not describing conditions in which a Lamanite warrior would lose his dark skin color because of his being a man of God. Nor is he describing a prophet who would have been the commander of a Lamanite warrior, such as the one named Zelph.

In item # 4, the account indicates that Zelph was killed in the last great struggle between the Nephites and Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah was not the last great struggle between the Nephites and the Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah took place in AD 385.

The struggle in which Mormon was killed, took place in AD 399, some fourteen years later, (see Moroni 9:24 and Mormon 8:1-8). Mormon had been chased by the Lamanites for fourteen years after the battle of Cumorah and assumedly he had traveled many miles from Cumorah during those fourteen years.

Not only did the Lamanites and Nephites continue to have military struggles after Cumorah, culminating in the death of Mormon, but the Lamanites continued to chase Moroni for an additional 21 years. During those years, the Lamanites “put to death every Nephite who would *not deny the Christ.” (see Moroni 1:1-2)

And lastly, item # 5, which states that Zelph was killed by a Lamanite arrow. Why would Lamanites be killing Lamanites?

*I remind the reader that the 3rd chapter of Helaman states that during the time period of BC 50 to BC 40, thousands of Nephites and Lamanites, (People of Ammon) had left the lands of the Nephites and Lamanites and gone into the land northward to get away from the wars of these two groups. Lamanites (the People of Ammon) would therefore have been in the land northward for almost 400 years before Mormon was chased in that direction after the battle of Cumorah.

So, there were no righteous Nephites or Lamanites in their lands, (the land southward). There were however, still righteous Nephites and Lamanites in the land northward. Proof of this can be found in Moroni 1:1-2 where the Lamanites are putting to death every Nephite who “will not deny the Christ,” and in Moroni 7:1-5, where Mormon is preaching to members of the church who are going to the Celestial Kingdom and who he represents as “having a peaceful walk with the children of men.” In other words, the People of Ammon, who were certainly people of God and who did lived in the land northward, could have easily migrated as far as Missouri, during these 400 years. They were just not part of the Nephite or Lamanite nation, per se.

Not only does Helaman indicate these righteous Lamanites went into the land northward along with thousands of Nephites, but states “there were many of the people of Ammon, who were Lamanites by birth, did also go forth into this land. And now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, which are particular and very large, concerning them.”

We therefore know that during Mormon’s day there were righteous Nephites and righteous Lamanites living in the land northward, and were still living the gospel. Not only had they separated them selves from the Nephite and Lamanite nations, but they were keeping their own records. I suggest they probably also had a prophet who led them – one different from Mormon.

I suggest this prophet’s name could have been Onandagus. If there was indeed a person from the People of Ammon serving as a warrior under a prophet named Onandagus, it could explain two things. It could explain how this Lamanite was a man of God. It could also explain how he had lost the curse of dark skin. From what little we are told about the People of Ammon they were certainly people who lived the gospel.

This could also explain why Zelph had been killed by a Lamanite arrow. Even though he was a Lamanite, remember the wicked Lamanites hated the People of Ammon because of their belief in the teachings of the Savior. Therefore it would make sense to me for those Lamanites who had been chasing Moroni for 21 years to encounter a Lamanite warrior, (from the People of Ammon), who was a man of God, a Lamanite warrior named Zelph. I assume the Lamanites chasing Moroni, would want to put such a man to death.

Putting the story in this context, all of the five points of the story identified by me, now make sense. They don’t make sense, if you attempt to force this story into the battle of Cumorah.

I believe the remains of a Lamanite warrior, who was a man of God, was discovered on the banks of the Missouri river. I believe that the Prophet Joseph did identify him as Zelph, and that he was involved in the last struggle between the Lamanites and Nephites. That struggle was in the lands of the Missouri river, some 36 years after, and thousands of miles from the location of the battle of Cumorah. The remains of Zelph were therefore not found in the lands of Cumorah, but in the north countries. (see Ether 1:1).

NOTE:

It will be noted that Helaman 3:13 indicates that the People of Ammon, who went into the land northward 400 years before Moroni was there, were keeping their own records. One would assume that the People of Ammon were also keeping their records on gold plates. This may explain where Moroni got the additional gold plates he needed in order to finish his record, as there was almost no space left on the plates his father gave him.

(see Mormon 8:5)

Just seems to me a lot of what one might call "hearsay" in the story of zelph; I see all this as a possible event of the naming of zeplh by J.S as a misstake or a missquote by J.F.S. Even if J.S gave this revalatory information; maybe he was wrong? Lets remember he was a mortal under extreme pressure and scrutiny; It should be of no surprise to remember he was not perfect.:)

[Hemidakota]

That guy who wrote Passage to Zarahemla should write a book on Zelph.

Are you referring too Chris Heimerdinger?

[Moksha]

Are you referring too Chris Heimerdinger?

Yes and thanks for mentioning it, since that name always makes me smile. :)

This would not be an extension to the Book of Zelph, since that book is already written. Instead, I was thinking of some sort of fictionalized account written in the Heimerdingian style.

[Justice]

I believe I found more as I was reading last night.

Words of Mormon:

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

It says he wrote this in AD 385. So, that goes with the time I was thinking, but it means I overlooked that he did deliver them to Moroni, or at least part of them, or he at least intended to.

I'll study on it and get back to you. :)

[Hemidakota]

Forums make it possible for collaborative efforts in consensus contemplation.

Thanks Justice...

[rameumptom]

It is always surprising to me when I see something in the scriptures that wasn't there before.

We shall see, I think, that textual criticism, which scholars now engage in trying to understand what the prophets were originally attempting to say, will lead us to a much better understanding of the gospel.

[nimrod]

Perphaps I missed it in the above posts but:

1. Final struggle - does not equal final battle. (could be several battles in the final struggle)

2. Eastern sea - does not necessarily mean eastern seaboard (ie: Atlantic Ocean) Many believe that the sea east in the BOM was the eastern Great Lake and Joseph may have referred to THAT. After all, Cumorah is close to the eastern Great Lake, NOT (so much) the Atlantic Ocean.

[Justice]

Well, I discovered something interesting last night, something I never had supposed.

Mormon made an abridgement of ALL the Large Plates of Nephi, and then replaced his abridgement from 1 Nephi to Omni with the Small Plates of Nephi, right before he gave the plates to Moroni.

Watch this:

Mormon 6:

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Now, I am the kind of person that can read something, and then later not be able to tell you a specific thing about it, but I remember all the ideas and principles that were taught. Read verse 6 very close, this is where I got my idea from that Mormon buried the plates then Moroni went back later and retrieved some of them when it was safe:

knowing it to be the last struggle of my people

He did believe they would all die, or at least that the plates would fall into the hands of the Lamanites after the battle:

and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them)

He hid them so they would not be destroyed. But, look at this:

therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi

He made his abridgment, he thought, so he could bury the records he was commanded to protect, and give his son a part of the record to take with him. If Moroni lost that record (Mormon's abridgement)and it was destroyed, then the originals were still preserved and he kept his end of the promise to protect them so they could come forth at a later day.

and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni

So, Mormon did hide up all the records given to him, but made an abridgement to give to Moroni. My guess is he did this because he knew the importance of having scriptures to read to stay close to the Lord, and he knew Moroni would be the last survivor and wander for many years.

Now, let's switch to Word of Mormon.

WoMormon:

1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

It says this was about 385, which would be right because it was after the battle of Cumorah, which the text says was after 384 had passed away. It could be a little later than 385, but not much, I suppose.

Now, here's a key:

being about to deliver up the record which I have been making

What was Mormon making? He was making an abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi, and he was finished. This included from Lehi through 4th Nephi. He was about to give it to Moroni because it was complete. Watch:

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

This threw me at first, until the Spirit opened it up to me. If you consider that Mormon was finished with his abridgement, and was about to give it to Moroni, then you can understand what Mormon is saying here.

And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi,

down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake,

He's not saying he ONLY made an abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi from Nephi to King Benjamin, he's saying he made a full abridgement, but he is speaking specifically about the part from Nephi to King Benjamin. Here's how I know, look...

I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi

He searched among the records he buried and found the Small Plates of Nephi, which we know he did not abridge, but just "inserted" into his abridgement. Remember how Mormon was given the plates. He did not receive them from a person like everyone else, who could have instructed him on all the plates that were there. He dug them up from the hill Shim. Mormon did not have time to read all the plates until now, because of all the wars, and he just now found the Small Plates of Nephi, shortly before he passed his FULL ABRIDGEMENT to Moroni.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

He found them and liked them because they spoke more about Christ and about the prophecies of Christ. Why is that?

1 Nephi 6:

3 And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God.

4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

5 Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world.

6 Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men.

No wonder Mormon liked the Small Plates of Nephi better!

So, what did Mormon do? He swapped out his abridgement of Lehi-Amaleki for the Small Plates of Nephi. Watch:

WoMormon:

5 Wherefore, I chose these things (the Small Plates of Nephi), to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

He chose the Small Plates of Nephi to use instead of his abridgement, and put them with his abridgement of King Benjamin through 4th Nephi.

Tada! Mystery solved.

Then, he commented on, or filled in the gap between, what happened from Amaleki to King Benjamin, which is what the Words of Mormon are. He tied the Small Plates of Nephi together with his abridgment of King Benjamin till the end, and inserted it between the two for a smooth transition.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Justice
forgot to remove some footnote references

[Justice]

And, now that we know that, check this out...

Speaking of the Small Plates of Nephi, Nephi said:

1 Nephi 9:

5 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not.

I bet Mormon appreciated that Nephi did it, and it appears we get a much more spiritual account than Mormon's original abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi from Lehi to King Benjamin.

[Hemidakota]

Perphaps I missed it in the above posts but:

1. Final struggle - does not equal final battle. (could be several battles in the final struggle)

2. Eastern sea - does not necessarily mean eastern seaboard (ie: Atlantic Ocean) Many believe that the sea east in the BOM was the eastern Great Lake and Joseph may have referred to THAT. After all, Cumorah is close to the eastern Great Lake, NOT (so much) the Atlantic Ocean.

I do agree, it was Moroni's perception of what he thought was left of his people. Other Nephites, could have easily escaped and traveled south [south America] to escape the calamities, as well to other islands since they had the capabilities of shipping. Not to forget, further north as Jerry was alluded too. I do remember a few decades ago, a newspaper print of finding white skin native Amazonian tribes that looked out of place.

I do believe in what Norman Gath and Jerry Ainsworth given for that answer of the location of the eastern sea - namely the Gulf of Mexico.

[rameumptom]

The evidence for a New York Cumorah for the battles is just very weak.

The fortified structures are in Mesoamerica, not in New York. Written language was unknown in New York area until the British and French arrived. The numbers of people required for a final battle (over 130,000 on the Nephite side alone) were not available in the area, but definitely were in Mesoamerica. Snow is not mentioned, but hot temperatures and fevers (malaria) are, as well as the cure for the fevers (quinine from the bark of the Cinchona tree).

The Nephite region was short enough to cross with women, children and animals in less than 20 days. If we allowed for 20 miles a day journey, it would be at most 400 miles between the land of Nephi and Zarahemla! Moroni recognized the Hill Ramah of the Jaredites, and that it had been renamed by the Nephites as Cumorah - meaning he didn't run to and from New York area and Mesoamerica, but only made the trip once! It took him decades to travel to the area, but not for Mormon's entire people - so it must have been nearby, as suggested by BYU scholars, like John Sorensen.

[Justice]

It certainly says in the scriptures that Mormon was the one who buried them at Cumorah, and it also says that Mormon only "gave" Moroni the Small Plates of Nephi and the abridgement he made of King Benjamin to 4th Nephi. Moroni finished the record of his father, abridged the Jaredite record (which means he unearthed the plates at a later date), and then he wrote his own book, Moroni.

For the hill Mormon buried the record in not to be in New York means that Moroni took (presumably) everything his father buried, without those things being given to him by his father, and moved them a long distance by himself to New York.

Let's also remember that the land changed greatly after the time of Nephi, son of Nephi, when Christ came. And, that the last "struggle" happened over the course of many years. During that time the Nephites were "fleeing" from the Lamanites with great haste.

Mormon 5:

7 And it came to pass that we did again take to flight, and those whose flight was swifter than the Lamanites’ did escape, and those whose flight did not exceed the Lamanites’ were swept down and destroyed.

They had time to travel across this land many times over. At this last battle at Cumorah they still had 230,000 men in the Nephite army with their wives and children.

Mormon 6:

6 ...therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

"Hid" is past tense.

It just doesn't seem logical to me, nor does the spirit seem to whisper, that Moroni would take the chance and unearth the records his father made, seeing he never knew if he was going to be caught from day to day, and move them across the country.

Moroni 1:

1 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.

2 For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ.

3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.

4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

To "wander withersoever" is very different than "take to flight." If it was between the army led by Mormon or Moroni by himself, it seems more logical that Mormon and the army under "flight" would move the record that great of distance. There was no way for one person to carry everything that was buried in the box. It seems Joseph, being large in stature, had difficulty even getting just the plates around under much the same "protect them" mode that Mormon or Moroni would have been under.

Again, it will not shake my testimony no matter where the true location of the Cumorah of the Nephites was. But, just looking at the text within the Book of Mormon and the situation of the Nephites, it makes much more sense that Mormon buried them in New York after "taking flight" from where he lived, and Moroni "wandered" around that area and returned to that location only when it was safe, never intending to unearth all the items in the box.

Sometimes the answer is right under our noses and we look for harder answers. Evidence outside the Book of Mormon has never proven anything contained within. I see this as no different. If the text gives clues as to what happened, that's the first and best evidence we have.

Edited December 11, 2008 by Justice
fixed grammatic mistakes (need to learn to proofread before hitting enter :) )

[rameumptom]

Why would Moroni have to take everything with him? The only time all the records were viewed in this dispensation was when the angel opened up the side of the hill for Oliver and Joseph to enter in and deliver up the gold plates.

As I see it, they could have been transported by the Spirit to anywhere in the world. I highly doubt one would find all those records in the New York hill Cumorah.

[Justice]

When Joseph Smith moved the stone away from the box, he saw a lot more than just the abridged record made by Mormon. He saw a sword, the Liahona, a Urim and Thummim, other plates... and many more items.