Who Puts The "z" In Zion?

[Snow]

Jenda says:

Zion, today is not in the LDS church. In fact, I have never heard any LDS person talk about Zion, let alone state that it is important to them today.

As evidence she offers that once there was a topic started on the subject but not many posts were made. I guess using that logic we could say that cooking is not important to Mormons because I have started threads on cooking but not many posts were made, likewise Christ or Temples of Joseph Smith or whatever topic got lost in the shuffle.

I say that Jenda is dead wrong on this one. I further opine that not one single orthodox, active LDS member will agree with her. Starsky, you don't count as orthodox.

What say is: Is there no Zion in modern Mormonism? Is it a lost concept?

[StrawberryFields]

Oh Yes.

Zion is alive and well and held bery close to my heart. :)

[Jenda]

Well, then, let's talk about it. Is it more important than temple ordinances?

[StrawberryFields]

I’m not sure where you and Snow have been going with this discussion.

Zion is a place where the soul yearns for many promises to be fulfilled. I am not sure why you ask if it is more important then temple ordinances.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2004, 10:10 PM

I’m not sure where you and Snow have been going with this discussion.

Jenda is trying to defend her idea that BY was evil and the the LDS Church is more concerned with Top Secret secretive type secrets than it is with the gospel.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 10 2004, 10:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Nov 10 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2004, 10:10 PM

I’m not sure where you and Snow have been going with this discussion.

Jenda is trying to defend her idea that BY was evil and the the LDS Church is more concerned with Top Secret secretive type secrets than it is with the gospel.

Except for the spin that Snow put on it, that is basically true.

I have been told several things about what (maybe individual) members think about Zion, which includes, as I stated in another post, that God moved Zion to SLC, and that since Zion was never realized in the early church, it has ceased being a focus for the LDS. I just wanted to find out what the LDS do believe about Zion so I can put these rumors to rest. Since it is the whole purpose the church was restored (to seek to bring forth My Zion), I just wonder why it is not focused on the way other things are.

What is Zion? Where is Zion? When is Zion? How will we attain Zion? etc.

[Blessed]

I am interested in what the LDS think of Zion as well.

What say ye?

[Guest curvette]

Great topic! I think at least part of the answer is in the Articles of faith:

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built on the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

The exact location is recorded in the D&C 84:

1 A REVELATION of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the cgathering• of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated• by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2004, 09:53 PM

Oh Yes.

Zion is alive and well and held bery close to my heart. :)

Do you have a soft teddy bear named "Zion?" :)

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 11 2004, 07:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 11 2004, 07:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Nov 10 2004, 10:30 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2004, 10:10 PM

I’m not sure where you and Snow have been going with this discussion.

Jenda is trying to defend her idea that BY was evil and the the LDS Church is more concerned with Top Secret secretive type secrets than it is with the gospel.

Except for the spin that Snow put on it, that is basically true.

I have been told several things about what (maybe individual) members think about Zion, which includes, as I stated in another post, that God moved Zion to SLC, and that since Zion was never realized in the early church, it has ceased being a focus for the LDS. I just wanted to find out what the LDS do believe about Zion so I can put these rumors to rest. Since it is the whole purpose the church was restored (to seek to bring forth My Zion), I just wonder why it is not focused on the way other things are.

What is Zion? Where is Zion? When is Zion? How will we attain Zion? etc.

Dawn & Blessed,

What and Where is Zion?

I think it is fair to say that it has been said by the RLDS (Differences that Persist, pg 8) that the LDS church believes that Utah is Zion. That is a misunderstanding.

JS stated at the April, 1844 conference of the Church that "the whole of America is Zion itself from North to South, and is described by the Prophets, who declared that it is the Zion where the mountain of the Lord should be, and that it should be in the center of the land."

He also referred to Missouri as Zion (Documentary History of the LDS church, pg 312). The LDS church believes that the "City of Zion" will be in Jackson County where the "Center Stake of Zion" will also be.

It is true therefore that Zion will "not be moved" even though her children are scattered. The time will come when a Temple will be built in Jackson County.

So...IMO...I do not see much difference between what the Restorationists believe and what the LDS believe.

The LDS church is aquiring lands in and around Independence by the tens of thousands of acres. This has been on going...and will continue. The convert baptism rate is doing well (can always do much better)....and other members are moving in continually...so LDS growth in Independence is doing very well. IMO.

Who is Zion? Zion is the name given by the Lord to his Saints; it is the name by which the Lord's people are always identified. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Zion....thus, joining the Church is becoming a citizen of Zion. (LDS D&C 97:21)

The New Jeruselem to be built here in Jackson County, Missouri is also called the "City of Zion or Zion".

I think it is fair to say....that the LDS church is very very rapidly gaining a significant prominance within the city of Independence. I would dare say it is equal to the CoC now. (this is a response to Dawn's ? on the other thread about "where are the LDS now")

Dawn...I had mentioned these things on the other thread....what...ya dont believe me? LOL! I thought I had already put those rumors to rest! LOL!

The "gathering" to Zion is a very fascinating subject. The LDS people are very, very eager to gather. But, the counsel from the Prophets is for the Mexican saints to gather in Mexico....South American saints in South America etc. The wisdom of the Lord in this is a marvelous thing to behold. Because of this counsel, the work is spreading over the earth in a truly miraculous manner! Those Saints are building up "Zion" and her "Stakes" where they live. The gathering is first and foremost a "spiritual gathering to Zion"...this is accomplished when a person is baptized into the LDS church. As this happens...the "Stakes of Zion" are strengthened and they then begin to spread out over the entire earth. We see this happening today.

Make no mistake...and do not doubt for one moment... Independence is STILL very much at the core of the future of the LDS church!

Timing is everything! When the time is right for the LDS church to move its HQ's back to Independence, Missouri....it will happen.

Having said all the above, the single most important thing any of us can do...is to strive to live each day as the Lord would want us to. If we can accomplish that...we will be furthering the cause of Zion...both here in Independence....and around the world.

randy

[Blessed]

I will share my thoughts, views, etc on Zion. I believe that Zion is the Kingdom of God on earth. I believe apart of it is endowed within each of those who have chosen Christ as their Savior. I believe it is a spiritual place as well as one day will be a physical place wherein we will all coexist peaceably. No poor, no rich, no heirarchy, and Jesus will reside with us. I believe it will be a small glimpse of what the celestrial glory will be like and after the final judgement we will (hopefully) be able to live in this Kingdom together... LDS, RLDS, CofC, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists... getting to the point that I think no specific denomination is required to be apart of the Celestrial or Zion for that matter. I think it will boil down to our hearts and that God will judge that.

OK-- those are my thoughts. Oh, one more thing, I believe it will come sooner than we think. Are we ready?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 10 2004, 10:38 PM

Starsky, you don't count as orthodox.

See what I mean? He has it bad for Starsky! She hasn't even posted and he gives her leading role in his comments.

Zion is lived, not chatted about. LDS live Zion. Who teaches your brats at nursery, primary, MIA, etc. Who watches over your scouts? Who comes to your home (at least once a year, prefferably Christmas time with goodies) and sees if your family is okay? Who organizes boring meetings and lessons each week so you will have two whole hours without your kids in your face during your day of rest Sabath?

Zion! That's living it!

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Amillia+Nov 11 2004, 04:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Nov 11 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Nov 10 2004, 10:38 PM

Starsky, you don't count as orthodox.

See what I mean? He has it bad for Starsky! She hasn't even posted and he gives her leading role in his comments.

Zion is lived, not chatted about. LDS live Zion. Who teaches your brats at nursery, primary, MIA, etc. Who watches over your scouts? Who comes to your home (at least once a year, prefferably Christmas time with goodies) and sees if your family is okay? Who organizes boring meetings and lessons each week so you will have two whole hours without your kids in your face during your day of rest Sabath?

Zion! That's living it!

So, I think you are saying that Zion is a verb as well as a noun. Is that right? It's something that we do while other people sit around waiting for it to happen. (you do sound like maybe you need a little rest from the nursery.)

[Guest Unorthodox]

In that case:

Zion=Zen

:)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by curvette@Nov 11 2004, 06:07 PM

(you do sound like maybe you need a little rest from the nursery.)

Not really. I just became active again this week, after nearly two years of inactiivity.

[Jenda]

I believe that Zion is two-fold. It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city. A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, our mind and our might. It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us. I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.) We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 09:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold. It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city. A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might. It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us. I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.) We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Christ is supposed to dwell with those who have been born again. So if there are those born again, they are in Zion.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Amillia+Nov 12 2004, 10:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Nov 12 2004, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 09:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold.  It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city.  A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might.  It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us.  I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.)  We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Christ is supposed to dwell with those who have been born again. So if there are those born again, they are in Zion.

You are equating the kingdom of God with Zion, and I don't think that they are perfectly equal. Enoch's city was Zion, and Christ did not dwell with them. They were Zion because they were of one heart and mind and there was no poor among them, and they followed God's commandments. Christ will dwell in Zion when Zion returns because that is what the prophecies of the end time say.

This is the prophesy of the everlasting covenant that specifies when Zion will be.

Genesis 9:17-23 IV (JST)

17 And I will establish my covenant with you, which I made unto Enoch, concerning the remnants of your posterity.

18 And God made a covenant with Noah, and said, This shall be the token of the covenant I make between me and you, and for every living creature with you, for perpetual generations;

19 I will set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

20 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud; and I will remember my covenant, which I have made between me and you, for every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

21 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant, which I made unto thy father Enoch; that, when men should keep all my commandments, Zion should again come on the earth, the city of Enoch which I have caught up unto myself.

22 And this is mine everlasting covenant, that when thy posterity shall embrace the truth, and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy;

23 And the general assembly of the church of the firstborn shall come down out of heaven, and possess the earth, and shall have place until the end come. And this is mine everlasting covenant, which I made with thy father Enoch.

But we can't be expected to build Zion physically if we have no understanding what it is spiritually, and that is why it must be a condition of your heart before you can physically begin to build it. I equate the spiritual condition of Zion (in our hearts) to the kingdom of God because it is through coming to know Christ that one begins to understand what is required to bring forth Zion. But the second must follow the first, or it is not Zion.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 08:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold.  It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city.  A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might.  It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us.  I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.)  We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Well said, Jenda. And I will also say that you can help build the city of Zion on Earth just as well as LDS can, as long as you do not fight against us... edit: and we continue to become one with our Lord.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 12 2004, 11:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 12 2004, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 08:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold.  It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city.  A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might.  It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us.  I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.)  We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Well said, Jenda. And I will also say that you can help build the city of Zion on Earth just as well as LDS can, as long as you do not fight against us... edit: and we continue to become one with our Lord.

I would say as long as we don't fight against each other.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 12 2004, 11:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 12 2004, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 12 2004, 11:25 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 08:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold.  It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city.  A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might.  It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us.  I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.)  We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Well said, Jenda. And I will also say that you can help build the city of Zion on Earth just as well as LDS can, as long as you do not fight against us... edit: and we continue to become one with our Lord.

I would say as long as we don't fight against each other.

Heh, of course, but since I assert that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being led by our Lord's true priesthood, under His direction, I expect you to understand that you must join us.

... so stop arguing against us and join us !!! :)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 12 2004, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 12 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 12 2004, 11:25 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 08:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold.  It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city.  A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might.  It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us.  I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.)  We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Well said, Jenda. And I will also say that you can help build the city of Zion on Earth just as well as LDS can, as long as you do not fight against us... edit: and we continue to become one with our Lord.

I would say as long as we don't fight against each other.

Heh, of course, but since I assert that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being led by our Lord's true priesthood, under His direction, I expect you to understand that I believe you must join with us.

... so stop arguing against us and come join us !!! :)

Yes, but I, being of the viewpoint that Zion is not equal to the Celestial Glory, will not be made up on only those who have accepted the restored gospel message. They might be the ones involved in most of the work of building it up, but Zion will be for all who are pure in heart. Hopefully, during that time, they will come to know and accept the restored gospel message, though.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 12 2004, 11:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 12 2004, 11:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 12 2004, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 12 2004, 11:25 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Nov 12 2004, 08:56 AM

I believe that Zion is two-fold.  It is a condition of the heart that proves itself in our very actions, and it is a physical city.  A city we are called to build, and should be striving to build with our teachings and actions, or mind and our might.  It will be a place that follows the commandments of God and all will be pure in heart, because Christ will dwell with us.  I believe it will come as the tribulations start (which I believe will be sooner rather than later, as, it seems to me, that the tribulations have started.)  We will be of one heart and mind, and there will be no poor among us.

Well said, Jenda. And I will also say that you can help build the city of Zion on Earth just as well as LDS can, as long as you do not fight against us... edit: and we continue to become one with our Lord.

I would say as long as we don't fight against each other.

Heh, of course, but since I assert that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being led by our Lord's true priesthood, under His direction, I expect you to understand that I believe you must join with us.

... so stop arguing against us and come join us !!! :)

Yes, but I, being of the viewpoint that Zion is not equal to the Celestial Glory, will not be made up on only those who have accepted the restored gospel message. They might be the ones involved in most of the work of building it up, but Zion will be for all who are pure in heart. Hopefully, during that time, they will come to know and accept the restored gospel message, though.

I agree with that too, so just keep your heart pure and open to the possibility that we [LDS] might be correct, instead of asserting or coming to a belief that we are wrong, and I believe you will be judged to be as righteous and pure in heart as someone who already knows the truth, assuming you keep trying to know it.

In other words, I believe people who are pure in heart admit that they do not know the truth regarding an issue they do not know about rather than make a false judgment, and that as long as people keep searching for the truth, they will find it, however long it takes.

And btw, although you may say that I may be the one to eventually discover the truth as long as I keep my heart pure, I testify that I already know the truth, which makes me either a true or false witness. In other words, I and my heart are either purely right, purely wrong, or purely innocent in my beliefs, and I will be judged based on my actions and the thoughts and intents of my heart.

And the people who hear from me must also determine whether I am right, or wrong, or whether they simply just don't know or understand the truth of which I witness, which will then add to or diminish from what they will become and how they will be judged.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 12 2004, 12:05 PM

I agree with that too, so just keep your heart pure and open to the possibility that we [LDS] might be correct, instead of asserting or coming to a belief that we are wrong, and I believe you will be judged to be as righteous and pure in heart as someone who already knows the truth, assuming you keep trying to know it.

And will you extend the same to Jenda about her church? (or is this a one way bargain?)

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 12 2004, 01:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 12 2004, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 12 2004, 12:05 PM

I agree with that too, so just keep your heart pure and open to the possibility that we [LDS] might be correct, instead of asserting or coming to a belief that we are wrong, and I believe you will be judged to be as righteous and pure in heart as someone who already knows the truth, assuming you keep trying to know it.

And will you extend the same to Jenda about her church? (or is this a one way bargain?)

It’s a “one way bargain”, and if you had read the remainder of my post you should have seen and understood that message.

I testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only organization on Earth with the authority to tell people how and when and where they should worship God and our Lord. Further, I testify that the RLDS is simply one among many apostate organizations that exist on Earth, referring to organizations and not to the people who are members of such organizations.

In other words, there are many good people on Earth who are true Christians, with pure hearts, who try to worship our Lord in spirit and in truth, but there is only one organization recognized by our Lord as His organization of followers on Earth, with all of the truth and all of the ordinances that our Lord desires people to accept. Everyone who is not a member of this organization is a member of some other organization, with only a fraction of the truth, at best.

Am I making myself clear now?

Btw, I’m not interested in winning a popularity contest. I am testifying in the name of Jesus Christ.