The Power Of A Witness

[Ray]

Originally posted by Blessed+Nov 18 2004, 10:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Blessed @ Nov 18 2004, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--speedomansam@Nov 17 2004, 10:53 PM

i've never seen giraffes mate, but i don't need to have faith to know that's how baby giraffes come to be. that's just how things work.

ROFLOL!!! That was good!

Heh, no, I think he also failed to stop and think that the only way he knows that is through Faith, unless he has seen that for himself.

In other words, the word “faith” is another word for “assurance”, which is the state of being sure about something, and if your assurance doesn't come from seeing something yourself, then the only way you can be sure about something is to accept somebody else’s assurance.

And I recommend that we seek God’s assurance, which I refer to as Faith with a capital F, because I am sure that God will always tell us the truth.

And btw, seeing something for ourselves doesn't guarantee that our assurance is based on truth either, so I would still recommend that we seek God's assurance on things that we can see for ourselves to be sure that what we think we see as truth is in agreement with how God sees things.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 10:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 12:14 PM

Btw, do you really call people "complete and utter morons" if they can't claim to know about something they have never seen, or do you talk like that only because you're talking to people on the internet?

I didn't get that out of what Snow said. I think he was saying that even a complete and utter moron would know that trees fall in the woods. That doesn't take faith.

I know the point you were trying to make about the tree and faith, etc. But it really wasn't a very good example. I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time. It's common sense. It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Perhaps you don't understand or agree with what I mean when I talk about the concept of Faith, so please tell me, according to your understanding of the scriptures, what do you think Faith is?

I already know, I'm just giving you an opportunity to testify and give me your assurance that I am either right or wrong.

And btw, I think taking God's assurance about something should be a matter of common sense too.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70@ Nov 18 2004, 10:56 AM

I know the point you were trying to make about the tree and faith, etc. But it really wasn't a very good example. I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time. It's common sense. It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Btw, are you sure you know what I’m talking about when I refer to falling trees? I’m not talking about trees falling down after being cut down by lumberjacks, or struck by a lighting blast, or eaten up by bugs, although I might as well be because I’ve never seen those things happen either, but I was originally talking about trees falling down without any outside force making them fall.

In other words, there are trees in the woods that some people claim to be hundreds and thousands of years old, so why can't I believe that every tree in the woods would eventually become hundreds and thousands of years old without some outside force making them fall? And how would I ever test that theory, except by waiting for a tree to fall without any outside force making it fall? And even if one tree fell without an outside force making it fall, should I then automatically assume that all trees fall without an outside force making them fall? Perhaps I simply didn’t see the outside force making that tree fall, the one that I saw fall, but maybe I could eventually find an outside force once I more thoroughly examined the tree that fell.

Do you still say that you understood the point I was trying to make?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:09 PM

I already know, I'm just giving you an opportunity to testify and give me your assurance that I am either right or wrong.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 12:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:09 PM

I already know, I'm just giving you an opportunity to testify and give me your assurance that I am either right or wrong.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Were you expecting it to? Have you forgotten that this thread is focusing on the power of a witness? What does that mean to you?

And btw, if you want to make any other comments, please try to apply your comments to the subject and main point of this thread.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:09 PM

so please tell me, according to your understanding of the scriptures, what do you think Faith is?

Faith doesn't really have to do with the scriptures. Faith is being confident in your beliefs even though you don't have proof. I do happen to have faith in the bible because I am a Christian, but others may have faith in the Qoran or in Mother Nature. And this isn't what I THINK faith is... it is what I KNOW faith is. It is the meaning of the word.

And yes, regardless of your long description, I still think it is dumb to compare faith in God to faith in a tree falling.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:37 PM

And btw, if you want to make any other comments, please try to apply your comments to the subject and main point of this thread.

And this applies only to me because...?

People post off topic all the time. And I don't think you're a moderator, Ray. What if I asked you to stop acting like you know so much more than all the other posters? Would you obey that request, Ray?

[Deb]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time. It's common sense. It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 12:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:09 PM

so please tell me, according to your understanding of the scriptures, what do you think Faith is?

Faith doesn't really have to do with the scriptures. Faith is being confident in your beliefs even though you don't have proof. I do happen to have faith in the bible because I am a Christian, but others may have faith in the Qoran or in Mother Nature. And this isn't what I THINK faith is... it is what I KNOW faith is. It is the meaning of the word.

And yes, regardless of your long description, I still think it is dumb to compare faith in God to faith in a tree falling.

As I said before, the word “faith” is simply another word for “assurance”, and Yes, people can have an assurance regardless of anything contained in the scriptures, but the scriptures are focused on the testimonies and assurances of people who claim to be inspired by God.

So how can you say that Faith, which is an assurance from God, has nothing to do with the scriptures?

Yes, you can be “confident” in your beliefs, “confidence” also being another word for “faith”, but how much does your confidence really matter if your confidence in something is opposed to the assurances of God?

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran, or in Mother Nature, or in something else that is opposed to the assurance that God could assure them of through the power of the Holy Ghost. But do you think that if some people have absolute confidence in an idea that God is a turtle, that makes God a turtle?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 02:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

No, I'm saying they have nothing to do with each other; hence, Ray's argument makes no sense.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

[Deb]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

So how can you say that Faith, which is an assurance from God, has nothing to do with the scriptures?

Faith 'in God' has to do with scriptures. But 'faith' doesn't have to be correlated to scriptures. I can have 'faith' that my coworker won't steal the stapler off my desk, for example. And yes, that is the correct usage of the word (one of the 9 or so definitions). It just may not be the definition that you like.

[Deb]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 01:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 02:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

No, I'm saying they have nothing to do with each other; hence, Ray's argument makes no sense.

Not even common sense? Perhaps we must have faith to believe Ray's argument.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Ray+ Nov 18 2004, 02:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 02:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@  Nov 18 2004, 12:41 PM

And btw, if you want to make any other comments, please try to apply your comments to the subject and main point of this thread.

And this applies only to me because...?

…because I asked you to, and I even said please.

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@ Nov 18 2004, 12:41 PM

People post off topic all the time. And I don't think you're a moderator, Ray. What if I asked you to stop acting like you know so much more than all the other posters? Would you obey that request, Ray?

You can do anything you like. I have no control over you. But do you think that means that I cannot ask you to do something?

And btw, I’m not acting like I know so much more than you or any of the rest of the other posters on this board do, because I’m not acting, and I’m not claiming to know any more than I know, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

And if you’re doing nothing more than acting like you know something, then the power of your witness isn’t even real, is it.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 12:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

So how can you say that Faith, which is an assurance from God, has nothing to do with the scriptures?

Faith 'in God' has to do with scriptures. But 'faith' doesn't have to be correlated to scriptures. I can have 'faith' that my coworker won't steal the stapler off my desk, for example. And yes, that is the correct usage of the word (one of the 9 or so definitions). It just may not be the definition that you like.

I agree that an assurance in something isnt' the same as an assurance from God, but the scriptures that speak of Faith are referring to an assurance from God.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 12:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 02:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

No, I'm saying they have nothing to do with each other; hence, Ray's argument makes no sense.

Not even common sense? Perhaps we must have faith to believe Ray's argument.

When I testify of something, I am giving you my personal assurance of what I know to be true, and I am also testifying that I know what I know through an assurance from God. Thus, the power of my witness has come from God, and I am personally assuring you that I am telling the truth.

[Deb]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:59 PM

And btw, I’m not acting like I know so much more than you or any of the rest of the other posters on this board do, because I’m not acting, and I’m not claiming to know any more than I know, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

This says it all. I'm sure glad I don't know you in real life. Your wife must be a patient woman!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

Heh, oh, sorry. I didn't realize that post was meant for shanstress.

[Deb]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 02:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:59 PM

And btw, I’m not acting like I know so much more than you or any of the rest of the other posters on this board do, because I’m not acting, and I’m not claiming to know any more than I know, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

This says it all. I'm sure glad I don't know you in real life. Your wife must be a patient woman!

Now that's not a very nice thing to say. Is it?

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 01:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:59 PM

And btw, I’m not acting like I know so much more than you or any of the rest of the other posters on this board do, because I’m not acting, and I’m not claiming to know any more than I know, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

This says it all. I'm sure glad I don't know you in real life. Your wife must be a patient woman!

Heh, why? Because she allows me to believe I know what I claim to know?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 02:05 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:59 PM

And btw, I’m not acting like I know so much more than you or any of the rest of the other posters on this board do, because I’m not acting, and I’m not claiming to know any more than I know, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

This says it all. I'm sure glad I don't know you in real life. Your wife must be a patient woman!

Now that's not a very nice thing to say. Is it?

I forgive her because I believe she has no idea concerning what she is really saying. And also because my Lord asked me to. :)