The Power Of A Witness

[Deb]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 18 2004, 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

Heh, oh, sorry. I didn't realize that post was meant for shanstress.

Oh, that's okay. I kinda figured that was it. Though I am a little puzzled at why Jenda jumped all over me and made it sound like "faith" and "common sense" are some sort of esoteric jargon that require an exhaustive definition.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Deb@Nov 18 2004, 03:07 PM

Now that's not a very nice thing to say. Is it?

You're right - it's not very nice. But I'm just being honest. Can you or others (LDS or not) admit that he has a way of 'speaking' to others in a condescending way? Take a look at his reply for this quote you are speaking of, for instance: "I believe she has no idea concerning what she is really saying".

It just gets old is all.

I appreciate the chance to post here being ex-LDS and all. I have become quite fond of many posters here. That's why I can't bring myself to leave, even after leaving the church. It's like a real community. I try really hard not to say anything negative about the church. But I just get tired of the superiority complex that Ray has. And so I stand by what I said: I'm really glad I don't know him in real life!

I know: Don't let the door hit me on the *** on the way out if I don't like it!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 01:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

Heh, oh, sorry. I didn't realize that post was meant for shanstress.

Oh, that's okay. I kinda figured that was it. Though I am a little puzzled at why Jenda jumped all over me and made it sound like "faith" and "common sense" are some sort of esoteric jargon that require an exhaustive definition.

Heh, I consider "common sense" to be fairly uncommon, at least to the degree that I expect people to be sensible. Haven't you ever noticed that?

Anyway, a definition of what you mean by that would keep people from assuming they know what you meant, and give people a better understanding of what you mean.

For instance, I define "faith" as an "assurance" that something is true, and since an assurance truthfully can come from anyone, I use Faith with a capital F to refer to an assurance from God.

My definition of common sense, on the other hand, is the idea that people commonly use their senses to discover the truth of things around them, but since people often have a different sense of what is true and what is not, I would say that sense is common only among the people who have the same degree of sensibility.

In other words, while you may think it's a matter of common sense to conclude that trees fall in the woods, and assure other people that that is true, other people may not be able to give their assurance or sense that that is true without first receiving an assurance from someone who they implicitly trust or who can increase their degree of sensibility. And like I said, I would never conclude or assume that all trees fall in the woods without first receiving an assurance from God, because I can sense a lot of other logical possibilities.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 18 2004, 01:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 18 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

Heh, oh, sorry. I didn't realize that post was meant for shanstress.

Oh, that's okay. I kinda figured that was it. Though I am a little puzzled at why Jenda jumped all over me and made it sound like "faith" and "common sense" are some sort of esoteric jargon that require an exhaustive definition.

I didn't jump all over you, for one. For another, for esoteric concepts like faith, and even common sense, people's individual definitions vary. And as Shantress pointed out, you can't even rely on a dictionary definition when there are 10 or 12 definitions for the same word.

I often ask people what they mean by certain phrases they use.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

If you were trying to disagree with me here, try again.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 18 2004, 05:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

If you were trying to disagree with me here, try again.

I'm not TRYING to disagree with you here. I AM disagreeing with you. Muslims would probably say that they have 'faith' in the Qoran.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 18 2004, 03:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 18 2004, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

If you were trying to disagree with me here, try again.

I'm not TRYING to disagree with you here. I AM disagreeing with you. Muslims would probably say that they have 'faith' in the Qoran.

But that is also what I said, so how is that a disagreement?

[Guest curvette]

I think Ray's example of the unseen tree falling in the forest fits into the category of scientific theory as well as faith.

A scientific theory is an explanation based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. Technically, electricity is "just" theory, but we continue to plug our vacuum into the wall and expect it to work. This is where "common sense" is factored in. Ray, you don't need God to tell you that the tree fell--you can know it from observation and reasoning.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+ Nov 18 2004, 04:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 18 2004, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Ray, you don't need God to tell you that the tree fell--you can know it from observation and reasoning.

Heh, that’s what YOU say. Are you asking me to put my trust in YOU ???

And which tree are you talking about, anyway? I’m not just talking about one tree, but all trees falling down without any outside force making them fall, and without my seeing them fall. Did you read my earlier post?

<!--QuoteBegin--Nov 18 2004@ 12:07 PM

… I’m not talking about trees falling down after being cut down by lumberjacks, or struck by a lighting blast, or eaten up by bugs, although I might as well be because I’ve never seen those things happen either, but I was originally talking about trees falling down without any outside force making them fall.

In other words, there are trees in the woods that some people claim to be hundreds and thousands of years old, so why can't I believe that all trees in the woods would eventually become hundreds and thousands of years old without some outside force making them fall? And how would I ever test that theory, except by waiting for a tree to fall without any outside force making it fall? And even if one tree fell without an outside force making it fall, should I then automatically assume that all trees fall without an outside force making them fall? Perhaps I simply didn’t see the outside force making that tree fall, the one tree that I saw fall, but maybe I could eventually find an outside force once I more thoroughly examined the tree that fell.  Or maybe I would reason that the tree fell because of the type of tree it was, and that other types of trees wouldn't necessarily do that.

And btw, I accept the fact that there are people running around on this planet saying that all trees just fall down without any outside force acting upon them at all, because that’s just what trees do, but how do you recommend that I come to know whether or not those people are telling me the truth? For all I know you might be just another one of those people who wants to get me and other people to believe what you say, JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY SO !!!

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:30 PM

Are you asking me to put my trust in YOU ???

Uh...no. Unless, that is, I AM observation and reasoning. In that case, yes.

[Ray]

Originally posted by curvette+Nov 18 2004, 05:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Nov 18 2004, 05:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:30 PM

Are you asking me to put my trust in YOU ???

Uh...no. Unless, that is, I AM observation and reasoning. In that case, yes.

Huh?

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 18 2004, 10:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 10:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Nov 17 2004, 07:00 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 17 2004, 05:53 PM

Or in other words, I can say that I know that trees fall in the woods, even though I can't see them, and the way I know that is through Faith.

Uh, no.

We know how trees lying on the ground got that way. It is not a matter of speculation. We can test it and prove that they got that way by falling. It is predictable, testable, reproducible. It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with experience, science, reason and "the known or knowable."

Better to save your "faith" for something that is unknown.

I don't think you're stopping to think that I may never have seen any tree fall in the woods, which in fact I haven't. So yes, the way that I know that trees fall in the woods is through Faith.

Btw, do you really call people "complete and utter morons" if they can't claim to know about something they have never seen, or do you talk like that only because you're talking to people on the internet?

Ray,

There may be a fine philosophical point about whether or not we can ever "KNOW" anything but to the extent that anything is knowable, knowing how tree lying on the forest floor got there is one of the knowable things.

No faith is required. In fact anyone who thinks that it is a matter of faith, as opposed to knowledge, doesn't 1. understand the meaning of faith, or 2. understand the meaning of knowledge, or 3. is a complete and utter moron.

You act as if it is not a matter of known fact that fallen trees got that way by falling. Well Ray, can you point to any non-complete and utter moron who dispute it? Do you dispute it? What's your theory or how fallen trees got that way?

I fully understand that you, along with 100% of humanity know that fallen trees fell and that you are simply using it as an example of faith. The problem is that is an incredibly poor example of faith. I have never been to Zillah, Libya, yet I know that it exists. I don't hope, I know; and the only ones who disagree with me are those that think that have been kidnapped by aliens for gastro-intestinal probing, those that aren't sure how fallen trees got that way and those that follow Benny Hinn.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 18 2004, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Blessed@Nov 18 2004, 10:52 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--speedomansam@Nov 17 2004, 10:53 PM

i've never seen giraffes mate, but i don't need to have faith to know that's how baby giraffes come to be. that's just how things work.

ROFLOL!!! That was good!

Heh, no, I think he also failed to stop and think that the only way he knows that is through Faith, unless he has seen that for himself.

In other words, the word “faith” is another word for “assurance”, which is the state of being sure about something, and if your assurance doesn't come from seeing something yourself, then the only way you can be sure about something is to accept somebody else’s assurance.

And I recommend that we seek God’s assurance, which I refer to as Faith with a capital F, because I am sure that God will always tell us the truth.

And btw, seeing something for ourselves doesn't guarantee that our assurance is based on truth either, so I would still recommend that we seek God's assurance on things that we can see for ourselves to be sure that what we think we see as truth is in agreement with how God sees things.

Dude, Brother Dude,

You're clueless. We live in the post enlightenment era. We now know that the earth is not flat and resting on the back of a giant turtle. We understand that germs can cause illness and some of us, believe it our not, know that baby giraffes come from mommy and daddy giraffes --- and not from Mr. Stork. Trust me Ray. They checked on it.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 18 2004, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Nov 18 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

If you were trying to disagree with me here, try again.

I'm not TRYING to disagree with you here. I AM disagreeing with you. Muslims would probably say that they have 'faith' in the Qoran.

But that is also what I said, so how is that a disagreement?

No, that is not what you said. You said they may have 'confidence' or 'assurance' in the Qoran, leading me to think that you think they would not say they have 'faith' in the Qoran. That's the disagreement.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Nov 19 2004, 05:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Nov 19 2004, 05:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

If you were trying to disagree with me here, try again.

I'm not TRYING to disagree with you here. I AM disagreeing with you. Muslims would probably say that they have 'faith' in the Qoran.

But that is also what I said, so how is that a disagreement?

No, that is not what you said. You said they may have 'confidence' or 'assurance' in the Qoran, leading me to think that you think they would not say they have 'faith' in the Qoran. That's the disagreement.

But that is the definition of faith, so that is why Ray is saying there is no disagreement.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 19 2004, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 19 2004, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 19 2004, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by -shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:47 PM

And yes, there are people who will tell you that they have “confidence” or an “assurance” in the Qoran

No, I'm sure people would tell me that have 'faith' in the Qoran.

If you were trying to disagree with me here, try again.

I'm not TRYING to disagree with you here. I AM disagreeing with you. Muslims would probably say that they have 'faith' in the Qoran.

But that is also what I said, so how is that a disagreement?

No, that is not what you said. You said they may have 'confidence' or 'assurance' in the Qoran, leading me to think that you think they would not say they have 'faith' in the Qoran. That's the disagreement.

But that is the definition of faith, so that is why Ray is saying there is no disagreement.

OK, maybe I misunderstood this, but the whole point is that Ray is saying that the word faith relates to the scriptures. I'm saying that it certainly CAN, but that isn't the only type of faith there is... that's only Christian faith. Coincidentally, I have Christian faith as well. But that doesn't mean that it is the only definition of the word.

[Jenda]

I don't think anyone implied that Christian faith is the only type of faith, but that is the context of this discussion. Everyone knows there are other types of faith, or rather, other things that you put your faith in or require faith. There is faith in human nature, there is faith in the natural course of nature (seasons changing, sun rising and setting, etc.). Faith that your boss will pay you on payday. Everything we do we do because of faith. There is not an aspect of life that is not affected by faith.

I posted a link to the Lecture on Faith on faith, even though you have stopped attending the LDS church, you might check it out, I don't think there is anything that is questionable in it.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 19 2004, 07:53 AM

I don't think anyone implied that Christian faith is the only type of faith, but that is the context of this discussion.

I'm not sure this discussion has any clear context.

[Ray]

Snow,

Are you really trying to understand what I’m trying to say, or are you simply enjoying trying to persuade me that I should accept your witness and the witness of other people.

Do I need to remind you that the point of this thread concerns the power of a witness?

I have stated that I do know that trees are falling in the woods without seeing even one tree fall in the woods, and the way I know that is through Faith. Or in other words, I know that trees are falling in the woods without even seeing them because I have received and accepted the assurance of God, and not merely the assurance of Man.

You seem to be telling me that I can know that trees are falling in the woods by:

1) accepting the assurance of other people who assure me this is true, or

2) using my own powers of reasoning without any observations of my own, or

3) observing this on my own while using my own powers of reasoning

1) I see no good reason to accept the assurance of you or anyone else I don’t know and trust. How do I know how and why they came to the conclusion that trees are falling in the woods? Even if these people have and had the best of intentions, they could all be wrong.

2) I see no good reason to accept my own powers of reasoning alone because my own powers of reasoning alone do not and cannot convince me that trees are falling in the woods. Or in other words, my powers of reasoning also lead me to some other possibilities to explain why some people claim trees are falling in the woods.

3) I see no good reason to accept my own powers of reasoning which might lead me to believe that trees are falling in the woods even if I observe trees falling in the woods, because my own powers of reasoning may fail to consider other possibilities to explain why trees are falling in the woods.

And btw, as I stated before, I’m particularly referring to all falling trees that fall without any outside force making them fall and without my seeing them fall, so looking at a tree on the ground that is presumed to have already fallen without any outside force making it fall and still without my seeing it fall, doesn’t really tell me a whole lot about how or why or even if all trees fall without any outside force making them fall and without my seeing them fall, now does it.

In other words, I'm claiming and testifying that nothing can be known without Faith, because without Faith we are relying either upon our own powers of reasoning or the assurance of other people who tell us that something is true. That’s not to say that a testimony doesn’t have any power, though. It may be that we simply fail to recognize the power that a person’s testimony conveys, or the power of our own testimony may disable a testimony given by other people, considering the power of a testimony to be its ability to convey truth.

And btw, I am now leaving all of you with my testimony in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Jenda@Nov 19 2004, 09:53 AM

I don't think anyone implied that Christian faith is the only type of faith, but that is the context of this discussion. Everyone knows there are other types of faith, or rather, other things that you put your faith in or require faith. There is faith in human nature, there is faith in the natural course of nature (seasons changing, sun rising and setting, etc.). Faith that your boss will pay you on payday. Everything we do we do because of faith. There is not an aspect of life that is not affected by faith.

I posted a link to the Lecture on Faith on faith, even though you have stopped attending the LDS church, you might check it out, I don't think there is anything that is questionable in it.

Ray: "So how can you say that Faith, which is an assurance from God, has nothing to do with the scriptures?"

Jenda,

I suppose this statement from Ray is why I thought he was implying that Christian faith is the only type of faith. Then I re-read the thread and saw where he explained what he was using the capital 'F' to mean. I somehow missed that the first time through.

Thanks for the lecture you posted.

[Deb]

Originally posted by Jenda+Nov 18 2004, 02:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Nov 18 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

Heh, oh, sorry. I didn't realize that post was meant for shanstress.

Oh, that's okay. I kinda figured that was it. Though I am a little puzzled at why Jenda jumped all over me and made it sound like "faith" and "common sense" are some sort of esoteric jargon that require an exhaustive definition.

I didn't jump all over you, for one. For another, for esoteric concepts like faith, and even common sense, people's individual definitions vary. And as Shantress pointed out, you can't even rely on a dictionary definition when there are 10 or 12 definitions for the same word.

I often ask people what they mean by certain phrases they use.

I recon it all depends on how you define "jump all over." I sensed that you were upset with me because I asked Ray why he asked me to define some words and phrases that shantress was using. I felt badly that you seemed irked at me. I'm sure it was all my fault so I'll try really hard not to force you to explain your rules of conversation to me, okay?

[Ray]

Yes, thank you for that reference, Jenda.

I recommend reading this part:

[Lec 1:10] If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; that without it, both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.

I would add further that while some men are content simply to rely upon their own assurance or the assurance of other people, it is best to rely only upon an assurance of God as our ultimate source of Faith, Knowledge, Wisdom and Intelligence... but again, that is simply another element of my testimony.

Btw, I also recommend that you read section 2 of these lectures, discussing the object upon which Faith rests, which can be found at this link.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Deb+Nov 19 2004, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Deb @ Nov 19 2004, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Nov 18 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by -Ray@Nov 18 2004, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by -Deb@Nov 18 2004, 12:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Nov 18 2004, 11:56 AM

I know that trees fall in the woods because that's what trees do over time.  It's common sense.  It's not something I have faith in, like I have faith in God.

Are you inferring that faith is a substitute for common sense?

Please define what you mean by "faith" and "common sense".

Why?

Because it is hard to hold a conversation when we don't know what the other person means by a phrase they've used?

But I was just asking the question to shanstress70, who dutifully replied. I wasn't sure why Ray was questioning my question to shanstress70.

Heh, oh, sorry. I didn't realize that post was meant for shanstress.

Oh, that's okay. I kinda figured that was it. Though I am a little puzzled at why Jenda jumped all over me and made it sound like "faith" and "common sense" are some sort of esoteric jargon that require an exhaustive definition.

I didn't jump all over you, for one. For another, for esoteric concepts like faith, and even common sense, people's individual definitions vary. And as Shantress pointed out, you can't even rely on a dictionary definition when there are 10 or 12 definitions for the same word.

I often ask people what they mean by certain phrases they use.

I recon it all depends on how you define "jump all over." I sensed that you were upset with me because I asked Ray why he asked me to define some words and phrases that shantress was using. I felt badly that you seemed irked at me. I'm sure it was all my fault so I'll try really hard not to force you to explain your rules of conversation to me, okay?

It probably was all your fault, so thanks for not expecting me to explain why I do things in the future.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 19 2004, 10:15 AM

Snow,

Are you really trying to understand what I’m trying to say, or are you simply enjoying trying to persuade me that I should accept your witness and the witness of other people.

Do I need to remind you that the point of this thread concerns the power of a witness?

I have stated that I do know that trees are falling in the woods without seeing even one tree fall in the woods, and the way I know that is through Faith. Or in other words, I know that trees are falling in the woods without even seeing them because I have received and accepted the assurance of God, and not merely the assurance of Man.

You seem to be telling me that I can know that trees are falling in the woods by:

1) accepting the assurance of other people who assure me this is true, or

2) using my own powers of reasoning without any observations of my own, or

3) observing this on my own while using my own powers of reasoning

1) I see no good reason to accept the assurance of you or anyone else I don’t know and trust. How do I know how and why they came to the conclusion that trees are falling in the woods? Even if these people have and had the best of intentions, they could all be wrong.

2) I see no good reason to accept my own powers of reasoning alone because my own powers of reasoning alone do not and cannot convince me that trees are falling in the woods. Or in other words, my powers of reasoning also lead me to some other possibilities to explain why some people claim trees are falling in the woods.

3) I see no good reason to accept my own powers of reasoning which might lead me to believe that trees are falling in the woods even if I observe trees falling in the woods, because my own powers of reasoning may fail to consider other possibilities to explain why trees are falling in the woods.

And btw, as I stated before, I’m particularly referring to all falling trees that fall without any outside force making them fall and without my seeing them fall, so looking at a tree on the ground that is presumed to have already fallen without any outside force making it fall and still without my seeing it fall, doesn’t really tell me a whole lot about how or why or even if all trees fall without any outside force making them fall and without my seeing them fall, now does it.

In other words, I'm claiming and testifying that nothing can be known without Faith, because without Faith we are relying either upon our own powers of reasoning or the assurance of other people who tell us that something is true. That’s not to say that a testimony doesn’t have any power, though. It may be that we simply fail to recognize the power that a person’s testimony conveys, or the power of our own testimony may disable a testimony given by other people, considering the power of a testimony to be its ability to convey truth.

And btw, I am now leaving all of you with my testimony in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Ray,

You're a puftah.

If you get the feeling that I am dismissing you by labeling your argument moronic and ridiculing you - thank you for noticing, that is exactly the effect I am shooting for because it engages your point on the same level of your point.

PD has made the most persuasive explanation of this of anyone I know or have read. I , personally, lack the patience to explain it with the same sensitivity and eloquence he displays but it boils down to this:

Proper Application of Faith:

God, outside the realm of faith is unknowable. The is no logic, to mathematical equation, no scientific experiment or observation, no verifiable history that can lead you to a certain knowledge of God. You can take all that logic and science and experience have to offer, sum them and multiply by 3 and you since fall short of "knowing" God or knowing that God exists. The only way to bridge the gap is to apply faith. This is the equation:

Science + logic + experience = God - faith

or

Science + logic + experience + X = knowledge of God

where X represents either 1. the believe in the unseen and an unseeable, and/or 2. the mystical change of heart where God enters our lives and we are reborn by virtue of our faith in him. (that is... we exercise faith and he blesses with the last bit of necessary knowledge of him where science and logic fall short.

Improper Application of Faith

The mechanism by which fallen treee fall; by any standard of knowledge this is a knowleable thing. The equation is:

Science + logic + historical observation = knowledge of how fallen tree fell.

There is no x, no unknown quantity. You could win in a court of law, you could get published in a peer reviewed scientific journal (if they didn't think the topic was completely and utterly moronic - which they would). No single non-fruit cake would dare dispute you.

The rest of your argument, Ray, dear Ray, is the stuff that headcheese is made of. Pure blather.

Do you really mean to say that your powers of logic cannot confirm that fallen trees have fallen? -remind me never to hire you. I couldn't afford to have someone that clueless work with the public.

Do you really mean to say you can't trust others who happen to have studied fallen trees and therefore know how they fell? - you have serious trust issue, irrational trust issues. I would reccommend professional help but I doubt that is treatable.

Do you really mean to say that you know know, through faith, that fallen trees fell because God revealed it to you because of your faith (yes, you did say that). - bull, there is on cold way - you are making that up.

[Traveler]

Sorry I got lost a little on where this thread is going. I am not sure I am agreeing but I have not had the time to read all the posts. Sorry again.

For me faith is quite different. Faith has more to do with what you do than what you think or what you think you are thinking (sorry I included such thinking). When someone has a lot of faith I like the understanding that they are "faithful". Therefore covenant has a lot to do with faith. Without covenant there is no faith or faithfulness

I think it is possible to exersize faith when you are not sure you are doing the right thing but realize that you have made a covenant. I think that being faithful is what you do inspite of what is being thought.

I also believe that all acts are acts of faith in something and that sometimes our acts and faith are in the wrong things.

The Traveler