Pilot Whales, humans and menopause.

[Fiannan]

I was just watching my copy of the BBC series "The Human Body" the other day and they were dealing with the scientific view of life (basically that all living creatures have a duty to fulfil to repropagate their genes before they die). Then they dealt with the paradox as to why human females live past their reproductive period -- sometimes half their life extends past menopause. So what was the explaination for this?

Well, if the purpose of life is to reproduce your genes (again, pure Darwinistic biology) then the only logical explaination is that the human female is to assist her offspring in the raising of their children -- thus making life easier for her offpring and enabling them to reproduce at a higher rate.

To support this idea the program noted that humans and pilot whales were the only creatures that the female goes through a menopause. The other interesting characteristic is that they are also the only creatures that the concept of "grandchildren" holds any importance.

When observing pilot whales one finds the older females assist their duaghters in caring for the young. Up until recent times in the western world this was the role of grandparents as well -- not to give presents on birthdays or occasionally babysitting but to be there to instruct the grandchildren, to care for the grandchildren and also assist in everyday family functions until the time of death. This was the extended family -- a concept supported by scripture as well as biology.

One wonders if we will continue our separation from our biological legacy for long. The "nuclear family" is an artificial concept of the industrial age and probably wil fade away in time as it devalues and degregates the older people and puts additional work and responsibilities on the young.

Besides, it's just not natural.

[hordak]

I don't know were the Pilot whale falls on the food chain but perhaps some species live longer to use more resources? Maybe we live longer to control the cow population for example.Even the fruit flies that live and breed in 30 days serve another purpose.

I do agree that the extended family will increase in unity based on financial changes though I don't know if it is a good thing.This comes from my culture bias.

[applepansy]

You forgot elephants.

Fianan, Human females live past their child rearing years for more reasons than to raise more children.

I'm not devaluing the importance of grandparents. Grandparents can teach children many things in ways parents can't. Children also seem to listen to Grandparents more than their parents when they become teenagers. . .not in all cases but more than a few. I love my grandparents and miss them.

My goal in life has been to be a Grandma. I would have skipped the Mom stage if I could have. Just kidding! My point is Grandma gets to have fun with the kids while Mom gets the work.

Seriously though and with concern . . . do you think of other things besides your version of the role of women?

applepansy

[Fiannan]

You forgot elephants.

Fianan, Human females live past their child rearing years for more reasons than to raise more children.

I'm not devaluing the importance of grandparents. Grandparents can teach children many things in ways parents can't. Children also seem to listen to Grandparents more than their parents when they become teenagers. . .not in all cases but more than a few. I love my grandparents and miss them.

My goal in life has been to be a Grandma. I would have skipped the Mom stage if I could have. Just kidding! My point is Grandma gets to have fun with the kids while Mom gets the work.

Seriously though and with concern . . . do you think of other things besides your version of the role of women?

applepansy

Are you sure about the elephants? The documentary series would be wrong then.

Role of women? The purpose was to deal with human biology and culture. In the spirit of equality let's deal with both genders. Females go through menopause and males don't. Why is that? From a biological point alone this would suppose that human males who survive past menopause in their original mate still serve the purpose of defending the tribe and hunting for food for the young. The strongest would then be able to take additional mates (biologically humans would be considered to be moderately polygamist as the larger the male in a species than the female the more mates he would be expected to get and since human males are slightly larger than close genetic females then one would expect the older male to take one or two additional wives if he was capable of it -- which is what we witness in most traditional societies). The "midlife crisis" in the human male is suspected of in reality being the realization (consciously or subconsciously) than his mate is no longer capable of reproducing his genes -- males who display this "crisis" usually do so when their wife reaches menopause -- which may be the reason so many males who are active in the Church get disfellowshipped in their 50s, or divorce and take trophy wives, they may not understand the biology behind such drives and be able to compensate for it.

So what's up with the role of women? Females bear children and males defend the herd and sire offspring based on their strength -- in a more natural biological sense. If anything the male is more expendible as you only need one male for several females to keep the tribe functioning while females are more valuable biologically and thus are given bodies better able to fight disease and the elements than men are blessed with.

Just biology -- yet aren't we supposed to gain insight about the creation by studying the world around us, and sometimes learning about ourselves in the process?

[pam]

Females go through menopause and males don't.

This is clearly from a humor standpoint...but I've known many men whom I was sure were either pmsing or going through menopause. Are you sure they don't?

But it is interesting to see the relationship between humans and other species in how they handle family relationships.

[Elgama]

I believe the same series or one similar covered the male menopause wasn;t it presented by Robert Winston, he certainly did one on the male menopause.

-Charley

[applepansy]

Are you sure about the elephants? The documentary series would be wrong then.

Role of women? The purpose was to deal with human biology and culture. In the spirit of equality let's deal with both genders. Females go through menopause and males don't. Why is that? From a biological point alone this would suppose that human males who survive past menopause in their original mate still serve the purpose of defending the tribe and hunting for food for the young. The strongest would then be able to take additional mates (biologically humans would be considered to be moderately polygamist as the larger the male in a species than the female the more mates he would be expected to get and since human males are slightly larger than close genetic females then one would expect the older male to take one or two additional wives if he was capable of it -- which is what we witness in most traditional societies). The "midlife crisis" in the human male is suspected of in reality being the realization (consciously or subconsciously) than his mate is no longer capable of reproducing his genes -- males who display this "crisis" usually do so when their wife reaches menopause -- which may be the reason so many males who are active in the Church get disfellowshipped in their 50s, or divorce and take trophy wives, they may not understand the biology behind such drives and be able to compensate for it.

So what's up with the role of women? Females bear children and males defend the herd and sire offspring based on their strength -- in a more natural biological sense. If anything the male is more expendible as you only need one male for several females to keep the tribe functioning while females are more valuable biologically and thus are given bodies better able to fight disease and the elements than men are blessed with.

Just biology -- yet aren't we supposed to gain insight about the creation by studying the world around us, and sometimes learning about ourselves in the process?

Fiannan, what does mean to you? I have no idea if Elephants go through menopause but the documentary I saw showed the Matriarch's mothering the youngest. . . her great grandchildren. She mothered the whole group. Her daughters mothered the youngsters too.

I'm not interested in debating the roles of women with you. I have observed that most of your posts end up being about the role of women as you see it. My question is: do you think of other things besides your version of the role of women?

Peace and friendship,

applepansy

[applepansy]

This is clearly from a humor standpoint...but I've known many men whom I was sure were either pmsing or going through menopause. Are you sure they don't?

But it is interesting to see the relationship between humans and other species in how they handle family relationships.

Pam, I'm certain that my husband is going through a male versioin of menopause. I also had three teenage boys. . .their moods cycled monthly. Nobody can tell me that men don't have similar hormonal changes as women, their's are just centered around testosterone instead of estrogen.

Testosterone poisoning is a subject for another thread.

applepansy

[Fiannan]

I believe the same series or one similar covered the male menopause wasn;t it presented by Robert Winston, he certainly did one on the male menopause.

-Charley

Depends. So-called male menopause is more a psychological or behavior (not biological) construct although psychology can have a huge effect on psysiology.

From what I have read males who go through a psychological period that can be associated with the mid-life crisis (trying to regain youth or trying to change direction in life) do so when their wives end their reproductive cycle. Evolutionary psychology would say this is an attempt not to recapture youth but to appeal to younger partners. So one might expect someone like Congressman Dennis Kucinich who is 62 (and married to a woman who is 31) not to go through such a state for more than 15 or 20 years while perhaps actor Ashton Kuchner who is 30 (and married to a woman who is 46) might go through such a period in the near future -- that is if these theories are correct.

The psychological impact of going through a "change of life" could either cause someone to try to fight or to go with the societal flow and adopt a lifestyle that is more akin to an older person. I personally believe that LDS people set the stage for "midlife" earlier than most people do. My wife and I were watching a movie last might which featured a love triagle between characters played by Jack Nicholson, Keuna Reeves adn Diane Keeton. Reeves is portrayed as a young doctor but when he did the role he was 40 in real life -- an age that most LDS people associate with being an older man and where you are expected to be celebrating your 15+ wedding anniversary. Maybe that's why so many LDS males in their 40s look older as they are already seeing their kids go off on missions and getting married. You choose to see yourself as "maturing" and your body adjusts to that state of being.

[Fiannan]

Testosterone poisoning is a subject for another thread.

applepansy

What the heck is that?

[applepansy]

What the heck is that?

:lol:People who suffer from Testosterone Poisoning usually display behavior typical of cavemen. They become dominant and dictatorial in their regard for others within their sphere of influence. Sometimes they even act childish and pout when they don't get their way. Either way they shake their spears and rattle their shields and demand others think the same way they do, or do things their way only, or otherwise resist being open to change.:D:D:D

Fiannan, I'm obviously joking. . . well I guess not so obviously for everyone.

Not everything in this life is serious. When we take the roles of men and women to seriously we get ourselves into trouble.

Lighten up a bit ok?

applepansy

[Mormonatalie]

I was just watching my copy of the BBC series "The Human Body" the other day and they were dealing with the scientific view of life (basically that all living creatures have a duty to fulfil to repropagate their genes before they die). Then they dealt with the paradox as to why human females live past their reproductive period -- sometimes half their life extends past menopause. So what was the explaination for this?

Well, if the purpose of life is to reproduce your genes (again, pure Darwinistic biology) then the only logical explaination is that the human female is to assist her offspring in the raising of their children -- thus making life easier for her offpring and enabling them to reproduce at a higher rate.

To support this idea the program noted that humans and pilot whales were the only creatures that the female goes through a menopause. The other interesting characteristic is that they are also the only creatures that the concept of "grandchildren" holds any importance.

When observing pilot whales one finds the older females assist their duaghters in caring for the young. Up until recent times in the western world this was the role of grandparents as well -- not to give presents on birthdays or occasionally babysitting but to be there to instruct the grandchildren, to care for the grandchildren and also assist in everyday family functions until the time of death. This was the extended family -- a concept supported by scripture as well as biology.

One wonders if we will continue our separation from our biological legacy for long. The "nuclear family" is an artificial concept of the industrial age and probably wil fade away in time as it devalues and degregates the older people and puts additional work and responsibilities on the young.

Besides, it's just not natural.

For Pete's sake!

[applepansy]

After further consideration and as a woman going through the dreaded change of life, I'm a bit offended at being compared to a Whale. I'm don't have THAT much weight to lose, do I? ROFLMSocksO

[Fiannan]

Facts don't fit claims of FLDS welfare fraud - Salt Lake Tribune

Well, I guess senator Reid (Zombie, Nevada) is a bit unhappy about this sort of thing but that's just sad for him. Is there any other religious minority he can persecute other than Mormon polygamists?

[MarginOfError]

Are you sure about the elephants? The documentary series would be wrong then.

Role of women? The purpose was to deal with human biology and culture. In the spirit of equality let's deal with both genders. Females go through menopause and males don't. Why is that? From a biological point alone this would suppose that human males who survive past menopause in their original mate still serve the purpose of defending the tribe and hunting for food for the young. The strongest would then be able to take additional mates...

You really will look for any justification for polygamy won't you?

[Fiannan]

You really will look for any justification for polygamy won't you?

Well, if polygamy is immoral then that would make the religion of Judaism questionable for condoning it (as well as the prophets practicing it) as well as sects that sprang out of Judaism -- namely Christianity and Islam. At least the Muslims are more in touch with the origins of their religion.

In fairness to the Jews a rabinical councel in Europe asked Jews not to practice polygamy several centuries ago for fear of persecution from Christians.

The main point here is that grandparent's main biological function is to continue to work to assist their offspring in rearing of children so as to insure more of their genes are passed on. Simple biology. In traditional society the fact that males retain their reproductive capabilities implies that they could also take additional wives as this meant stronger males would pass on their genes and the genetic health of the society would be enhanced. Again, simple biology.

Interesting how biology and religion can work together so many times.

[MarginOfError]

Well, if polygamy is immoral then that would make the religion of Judaism questionable for condoning it (as well as the prophets practicing it) as well as sects that sprang out of Judaism -- namely Christianity and Islam. At least the Muslims are more in touch with the origins of their religion.

In fairness to the Jews a rabinical councel in Europe asked Jews not to practice polygamy several centuries ago for fear of persecution from Christians.

I believe you yourself said once that morality is a fluid concept. So when you ask me if polygamy is immoral, I have to counter with, "at what point in history."

The main point here is that grandparent's main biological function is to continue to work to assist their offspring in rearing of children so as to insure more of their genes are passed on. Simple biology. In traditional society the fact that males retain their reproductive capabilities implies that they could also take additional wives as this meant stronger males would pass on their genes and the genetic health of the society would be enhanced. Again, simple biology.

Interesting how biology and religion can work together so many times.

Or it could mean that the female body is in danger of killing itself if it gets pregnant at a later age, whereas the male body is susceptible to much less danger if it impregnates a female at a later age. What if it's about personal preservation and not species propagation. The main point being that your explanations are pure conjecture that conveniently fit into your predetermined view on society.

[applepansy]

Fiannan, You haven't answered my question. Do you ever think of anything but the role of women?

I'm serious. I'd like an answer.

applepansy

[MorningStar]

That's too bad menopausal women have no purpose. No, actually it sounds relaxing. Ahhhhhh .....

[Elgama]

yeah i wish i was menopausal right now, might be able to hope for a nights sleep sometime in next few years:)

I personally think men being menopausal, or suffering morning sickness etc isn't that just part of becoming one with your spouse lol? And I can't see my husband wanting to go back to sleepless nights and dirty nappies again once its all over - hey you know what girls Menopause Fiannan style is sounding more like heaven every minute

If you wanna have babies in your 90s feel free chaps, I is gonna take a cruise or spend it on a beach instead

-Charley

[MorningStar]

Fiannan, if menopause signals a woman is supposed to start raising her grandchildren, what does it mean when a man becomes impotent? Does the same standard apply? Perhaps we should find a medication to reverse menopause since men have viagra. My feeling is that just because an old man can still father babies doesn't mean he should.

[Fiannan]

Fiannan, if menopause signals a woman is supposed to start raising her grandchildren, what does it mean when a man becomes impotent? Does the same standard apply? Perhaps we should find a medication to reverse menopause since men have viagra. My feeling is that just because an old man can still father babies doesn't mean he should.

Don't gripe at me for the laws of biology.

In much of Europe, children are divided into programs of study in high school depending on their interests and aptitudes. You can be placed in a natural science tracking category in which most of your classes will be math and science oriented or you can be placed in a social science category where most of your classwork is humanities oriented.

I have joked that there may be an easy way to see if your child (as young as 6) will be an N student or an S student. Show them an animal program on Discovery where a lion chases down, kils and eats a cute baby gazelle. Observe what your child says -- if they get mad that the cameraman didn't do something to save the gazelle or that the lion was really mean then they are likely to grow up to be a social science student. If they find the laws of nature interesting and observe that the lion now can feed her cubs then they are likely to become natural science students.

Again, who was the author of the laws of biology?

[MarginOfError]

Don't gripe at me for the laws of biology.

In much of Europe, children are divided into programs of study in high school depending on their interests and aptitudes. You can be placed in a natural science tracking category in which most of your classes will be math and science oriented or you can be placed in a social science category where most of your classwork is humanities oriented.

I have joked that there may be an easy way to see if your child (as young as 6) will be an N student or an S student. Show them an animal program on Discovery where a lion chases down, kils and eats a cute baby gazelle. Observe what your child says -- if they get mad that the cameraman didn't do something to save the gazelle or that the lion was really mean then they are likely to grow up to be a social science student. If they find the laws of nature interesting and observe that the lion now can feed her cubs then they are likely to become natural science students.

Again, who was the author of the laws of biology?

I think I'm just going to repeat this sentence over and over until it sinks in.

The main point being that your explanations are pure conjecture that conveniently fit into your predetermined view on society. (full reference)

[Elgama]

Don't gripe at me for the laws of biology...

Again, who was the author of the laws of biology?

Humans, Heavenly Father created the Earth, the laws of biology are men trying to understand how he did it, willing to bet they are not the same as the laws he used,

Just like the laws of physics or chemistry or psychology, Heavenly Father created the object for study, he did not create the academic discipline

Willing to bet your average dog has better understanding than most professors

-Charley

[MorningStar]

Don't gripe at me for the laws of biology.

In much of Europe, children are divided into programs of study in high school depending on their interests and aptitudes. You can be placed in a natural science tracking category in which most of your classes will be math and science oriented or you can be placed in a social science category where most of your classwork is humanities oriented.

I have joked that there may be an easy way to see if your child (as young as 6) will be an N student or an S student. Show them an animal program on Discovery where a lion chases down, kils and eats a cute baby gazelle. Observe what your child says -- if they get mad that the cameraman didn't do something to save the gazelle or that the lion was really mean then they are likely to grow up to be a social science student. If they find the laws of nature interesting and observe that the lion now can feed her cubs then they are likely to become natural science students.

Again, who was the author of the laws of biology?

Are you saying all biological urges are inspired by God? You need to separate what is God given and what is a result of The Fall. There are lots of disgusting things in nature. The natural man is an enemy to God.

Mosiah 3: 19

• 19 For the anatural bman is an cenemy to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields to the enticings of the Holy fSpirit, and gputteth off the hnatural man and becometh a isaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

We are supposed to overcome the natural man. Just because a woman isn't fertile her whole life doesn't mean she doesn't have an amazing mission yet to fulfill on this earth! We have a different purpose than animals. A woman is more than a person who produces babies. She is a friend, teacher, wife, and each woman is blessed with talents that contribute to the world. We're not obligated to stick around to make sure our daughters have as many babies as humanly possible. If my daughter can't handle it, she needs to prayerfully consider with her husband that maybe their family is complete because Grandma isn't going to be around forever. My own mother tries to help as much as she can, but she is too sick to do so a lot of the time. But she has much more purpose and meaning than what she can do for my children. She had to have a hysterectomy at 30 and yet her self-worth remained. It is a lovely thing for extended relatives to help, yes, but it's not something anyone can rely on.

Having children is no cakewalk. Every time a woman has a child, she is putting her physical and emotional health at risk and even risking her life. Quality of life needs to be considered and her ability to effectively mother the children she already has. Yes, we are encouraged to have as many children as our circumstances allow, but those circumstances include many factors. If a woman can't handle another baby, she shouldn't have to rely on her mother and her husband should respect her enough to give her a rest. After all, she did just risk her life and went through unbelievable pain and suffering to give him a child.