I need help.

[Hemidakota]

Onetimequestion-

I frankly do not understand your behavior in your posts. You begin by asking for help because you think you may be possessed by an evil spirit, then switch gears and turn it into an article about how the members of the Church don't understand Grace.

I can understand the severe spiritual trauma you are experiencing right now, but realize that you are in great spiritual danger right now because of your own past iniquities. It's simply not fair or justified to start judging the rest of the Church for a perceived lack of trust in grace, when you yourself are just now beginning to understand it (forgive me if you have understood it for a while, but your posts have made it clear that you are judging your understanding of grace largely on an experience barely half a week old). To put it more bluntly, 'take the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from your brother's'.

I say this as a caution: believe me, if you sidetrack your progress towards spiritual health with judgments of others, you'll end off worse than you were to begin with.

I sense something is not right or there is no real membership within the kingdom here.

[Hemidakota]

My friend, I will caution you in the TEN COMMANDMENTS as your claims of Christianity; the one that states THOU SHALL NOT TO BEAR FALSE WITNESS. Another one, THOU SHALL NOT LIE.

[georgia2]

hahah you guys!

I posted a link last week about how I hate it when people POSE as Latter Day Saints, then breed contention!

as far as this question regarding grace. seems to me that some Christian denominations are the ones who don't understand grace. Grace is the act or attitude of HEavenly Father and Jesus Christ continuing to love us, continuing to bless us, continuing to give us the opportunity to repent and do better than yesterday. here's the definition in the dictionary

"1• courteous goodwill : at least he has the grace to admit his debt to her.

•

2 (in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

This gift of grace however doesn't mean that we can continue to do a we please, sin knowingly, then expect to be forgiven the next day because we are just human! GRACE WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD meaning, dear boy, that we have to TRY to live the commandment and do those things demonstrated by Christ when he was on the earth. When I was Baptist, this was the mind set. Oh we could go out Friday night and party down, then we could feel bad on Saturday, then repent on Sunday! What kind of thinking is that? Oh, I'm saved by grace and all I have to do is PROFESS that I believe in Christ and do nothing more. I am saved by grace! :embarrassed:It doesn't make sense!

"If Ye love me, keep my commandments I have to love Him, follow Him, try very hard to overcome my shortcomings and temptations, continue to humble myself and ask for help. No matter what I do, no matter how much I overcome the things the natural man has the tendency towards, i Will never, NEVER be worthy to return to him, This is the GRACE part, even though I am not perfect, even though I am not spotless, even thou I am not sinless, He still loves me! His atonement will pay the price for my transgressions. His grace toward me and all of us is what will save us in the end.

People who argue GRACE VS WORKS, don't get it. I guess they are hoping and fighting for the go out and sin Friday and His grace will make it okay. If that is what they want to believe and count on, then go for it! We'll see in the end won't we?

[Onetimequestion]

Onetimequestion-

I frankly do not understand your behavior in your posts. You begin by asking for help because you think you may be possessed by an evil spirit, then switch gears and turn it into an article about how the members of the Church don't understand Grace.

I can understand the severe spiritual trauma you are experiencing right now, but realize that you are in great spiritual danger right now because of your own past iniquities. It's simply not fair or justified to start judging the rest of the Church for a perceived lack of trust in grace, when you yourself are just now beginning to understand it (forgive me if you have understood it for a while, but your posts have made it clear that you are judging your understanding of grace largely on an experience barely half a week old). To put it more bluntly, 'take the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from your brother's'.

I say this as a caution: believe me, if you sidetrack your progress towards spiritual health with judgments of others, you'll end off worse than you were to begin with.

Sometimes, a fresh perspective is what helps you see the clearest.

My prayers were answered through my home teachers and what I took away seems to be this.

1. The Lord will always answer my prayers and take care of me.

2. Just because many members don't understand the meaning of Grace does NOT mean that it's not a principle of the gospel. Even if that misunderstanding may be preached in Sunday School and sacrament meeting.

3. That if the Lord is my foundation He will reveal all things to me that I sincerely desire. I even fasted!

And while your advice is sound, I'd say apply it yourselves as well. Maybe I don't know all things, but as long as I trust in the Lord He will help me understand gradually. If you doubt your understanding than that only means you need to put more of your trust in the Lord and seek either a confirmation of what He's taught you or you need to go back to Him and find out for sure.

And I knew that a previous revelation would never conflict with one I had recieved. I have felt the spirit in the temple in an amazing way, so much so that I remember it seven years later. And the power of the priesthood is real. :)

Yet, it is through grace that I am saved. And I need to rely on that every day and still do my best. Yet, when you are sincere and humble and consciously depend on His grace, it seems to become easier to keep His commandments. And while it is neccesary to keep them, it isn't by doing that that I become saved, as if I put him in a debt. I owe God nothing. Everything is a gift. I suggest anyone that is confused about the nature of Grace to turn to the Lord in prayer and knock. Keep knocking on that door til it opens and when it does, as it surely will if you want to know, Great will be your Joy.

I feel this way. My faith is foremost in Christ and God. Even if the church were not to be true, I know that Christ is. And so, I feel no obligation to defend it. Because the truth shall be manifest of God's spirit. Where truth is, the spirit is also.

And also, one more and my favorite...

The Truth Shall Set You Free!

I'm also disappointed that you would think I was somehow decieving you. It's a good thing I put my trust in God and not in the members, otherwise you would have driven me off as an enemy when you should have loved me. But I forgive you.

Much Love, your brother in Christ, Derek.

[Maxel]

Sometimes, a fresh perspective is what helps you see the clearest.

My prayers were answered through my home teachers and what I took away seems to be this.

1. The Lord will always answer my prayers and take care of me.

2. Just because many members don't understand the meaning of Grace does NOT mean that it's not a principle of the gospel. Even if that misunderstanding may be preached in Sunday School and sacrament meeting.

3. That if the Lord is my foundation He will reveal all things to me that I sincerely desire. I even fasted!

And while your advice is sound, I'd say apply it yourselves as well. Maybe I don't know all things, but as long as I trust in the Lord He will help me understand gradually. If you doubt your understanding than that only means you need to put more of your trust in the Lord and seek either a confirmation of what He's taught you or you need to go back to Him and find out for sure.

And I knew that a previous revelation would never conflict with one I had recieved. I have felt the spirit in the temple in an amazing way, so much so that I remember it seven years later. And the power of the priesthood is real. :)

Yet, it is through grace that I am saved. And I need to rely on that every day and still do my best. Yet, when you are sincere and humble and consciously depend on His grace, it seems to become easier to keep His commandments. And while it is neccesary to keep them, it isn't by doing that that I become saved, as if I put him in a debt. I owe God nothing. Everything is a gift. I suggest anyone that is confused about the nature of Grace to turn to the Lord in prayer and knock. Keep knocking on that door til it opens and when it does, as it surely will if you want to know, Great will be your Joy.

I feel this way. My faith is foremost in Christ and God. Even if the church were not to be true, I know that Christ is. And so, I feel no obligation to defend it. Because the truth shall be manifest of God's spirit. Where truth is, the spirit is also.

And also, one more and my favorite...

The Truth Shall Set You Free!

I'm also disappointed that you would think I was somehow decieving you. It's a good thing I put my trust in God and not in the members, otherwise you would have driven me off as an enemy when you should have loved me. But I forgive you.

Much Love, your brother in Christ, Derek.

[anger]

Your story is completely inconsistent with the real facts of human life.

You were met with love- did you see how many people tried to help you? I wrote a heartfelt post just for you- it's too bad you completely skipped it in your eagerness to bash us. It's when you start preaching to us about how 'bad' the LDS are that something's not right. From satanist to holier-than-thou... Quite a spiritual trip.

I'm glad you forgive us for finding you out. I forgive you for lying, or being a bald-faced hypocrite, whichever it is. If you honestly think the LDS church doctrine doesn't emphasize Grace enough, you're free to find one that suits you. There's also plenty of restoration branches out there that claim to have the truth because the LDS church 'fell away' or 'doesn't practice correct practices' anymore.

On a side note, if you don't think the LDS church emphasizes grace enough, you've completely missed the point- If you had studied the scriptures more and satanistic texts less, you would have understood that.

Ephesians 4:14

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

This thread needs to be closed.

[/anger]

Edited January 26, 2009 by Maxel

[Justice]

It was as if I felt keenly aware of His mercy and that there was NOTHING I could do to bring myself salvation. And it wasn't that I needed to "do my best". That was done. I needed to follow his Grace and trust in Him daily and have true faith.

Actually, this is something few people really give enough thought to, IMO.

A lot of people in the Church think that works plays some part in our Salvation. Meaning, that if we are righteous then it in some way helps to earn our salvation.

This is a misunderstanding, and worse, false doctrine.

Salvation is brought about by Christ. Christ overcame death and hell. All men were destined for death and hell, and it was our fate. Christ interceded. Christ overcame.

Onetimequestion, what you might be missing is that Christ said He will judge us by our works. Works are required to show Christ that we love Him, and that we love light and truth. He will grant the salvation He earned to us by judging our works.

So, to say we are saved by our works is a misstatement. It is more proper to say we will be judged by our works. Even though, when it gets right down to is, it makes works required for salvation, even if they are not what earned it.

We are saved by grace, after all we can do.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Justice

[talisyn]

I'm willing to give Onetime the benefit of the doubt. You know how each Sunday we're told the same things over and over and asked the same question over and over and it drives us nuts....until one fine day it doesn't? I'm of the opinion that in the midst of One's struggles (hehe I like that, 'One's struggles') all of a sudden the lesson of Divine Grace sunk in, and now he's wondering how come the church never ever mentioned it before.

[Maxel]

I'm willing to give Onetime the benefit of the doubt. You know how each Sunday we're told the same things over and over and asked the same question over and over and it drives us nuts....until one fine day it doesn't? I'm of the opinion that in the midst of One's struggles (hehe I like that, 'One's struggles') all of a sudden the lesson of Divine Grace sunk in, and now he's wondering how come the church never ever mentioned it before.

Talisyn, you are truly a Christian. I thank you for saying that, as what I'm about to say throws a completely different light on Onetimequestion. If I am wrong, I pray he remembers your charity rather than my diatribe.

The idea Onetimequestion had a deep lesson suddenly 'sink in' would hold water, if Onetimequestion's writing style and message hadn't dramatically changed over the course of his postings. Remember the whole reason he wrote this article is he thought he has a demon with him, because in the past he dabbled in the doctrines and artistic expressions of satanism? Frankly, if someone who had investigated the occult and indulged in satanic music to the degree when they think they have an unclean spirit fighting for control of their soul, I wouldn't take anything else they had to say on spiritual matters seriously until they had cleansed themselves fully- something Onetimequestion has clearly not done, if we are to believe that on the 23rd he thought he had a 'demon with him'. It might be different if he mentioned this 'possession' again, but he NEVER AGAIN mentions his possible 'demonic possession'. If I am to assume that he is trying his best to be honest, than that evil spirit is still there, or in one moment of feeling God's grace, his soul was utterly healed. It frankly doesn't happen, unless the whole spirit is changed, as in Alma the Younger. Someone who had their spirit changed so drastically wouldn't be on the forums two days later decrying the Church.

His next subject is doubting the doctrines of the restored Gospel! It's also important to note that he valued his non-LDS friend as 'a true follower of Christ' that he prayed with in his first post, yet his bishop he faulted for 'not commanding [the spirit] to leave'.

Another way to measure the bullcrappery of his postings is the way in which he's presented his message.

For example, the bulk of his first post is one big chunk of words; no paragraphs to show a clear delineation between ideas. The only exception is the last few sentences, where he assures us of his general sanity, and encourages us to 'respond with faith'. Every post after that, however (when he starts questioning Church members' stance on Grace) he clearly uses a writing style more suited to a college student writing an argumentative essay.

In other words, in the beginning he presents himself as an on-the-edge, end-of-his-rope person begging for help fighting a very serious issue. From his second post on, however, he completely abandons that style and presents himself as a respectable debater, though he mysteriously neglects to respond to the people who tell him that we are indeed saved through the grace of God. In other words, he turns a blind eye to everything anyone else says- unless they help his argument.

One third measuring stick is to examine the phrases he uses. Clearly, even in his first post, he is very familiar with biblical and LDS idioms and theology. Phrases like 'it's important to note that I accepted this'; 'son of perdition'; 'ye who call yourselves chosen of God'; 'whereby can I have deliverance'; all speak of a specifically LDS theme and understanding, even when he's supposedly being greatly influenced by this evil spirit. More on the importance of this later.

One last area to examine is his use, doctrinally, of Grace and his all-encompassing misunderstanding of the LDS view of it. I won't get into an explanation here, as others admirably set forth examples of how Grace is important. Yet, Onetimequestion persists in his self-righteous conclusion that the majority of the LDS populous is in grave error in their interpretation. He admits to feeling the spirit in temples before and believing that Joseph Smith is a prophet, but he seems to refuse to believe that the LDS Church is still the authoritative Church of Christ.

At the very least, he doubts the church because of the 'awful' state of the members- yet he explicitly tells me that 'it's a good thing he puts his faith in God instead of the members' to arrive at the truth.

Judging from all these facts, it seems our friend Onetimequestion is either

A.) Truly possessed by an evil spirit, and there's really two distinct posters: the real person, and the demon he feels possessed by

B.) A skilled liar, and a hypocrite to boot; probably someone who grew up LDS and fell away spiritually, now doomed to live their life in a warped reality where good is bad and bad is good, unless he repents

I'm leaning towards 'B'. It seems his agenda is to declare that Joseph Smith was a prophet but the LDS church is in error, and that Onetimequestion knows a better way.

It's true I'm extrapolating and drawing conclusions, but that's what I do. I have a good track record, both on these forums and in other areas.

Ephesians 4:14

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Matthew 24:24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I really think this thread needs to be closed (better yet, deleted). I wrote this so no one else would be taken in by Onetimequestion's cunning. Either purposely or accidentally, there is something terribly, dangerously two-faced about Onetimequestion, and until what it is is found out, there's danger to the spiritual safety of this community.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Maxel

[Dove]

I'm with Maxel, OTQ sounds so much like the born again christian ideology I have heard many a time, and I really feel/believe that he is not being truthful, that he is here to cause contention.

[Onetimequestion]

[anger]

Your story is completely inconsistent with the real facts of human life.

You were met with love- did you see how many people tried to help you? I wrote a heartfelt post just for you- it's too bad you completely skipped it in your eagerness to bash us. It's when you start preaching to us about how 'bad' the LDS are that something's not right. From satanist to holier-than-thou... Quite a spiritual trip.

I'm glad you forgive us for finding you out. I forgive you for lying, or being a bald-faced hypocrite, whichever it is. If you honestly think the LDS church doctrine doesn't emphasize Grace enough, you're free to find one that suits you. There's also plenty of restoration branches out there that claim to have the truth because the LDS church 'fell away' or 'doesn't practice correct practices' anymore.

On a side note, if you don't think the LDS church emphasizes grace enough, you've completely missed the point- If you had studied the scriptures more and satanistic texts less, you would have understood that.

This thread needs to be closed.

[/anger]

Where have I bashed the church. And ask me any question you wish if you don't believe I am sincere. Your hypocrisy causes me to question my revelation. But it's not worth it. I thought I had friends here, but it's clear just ignorant and close-minded pharisees. Everyone was quick to jump on the bandwagon because YOU DONT KNOW CHRIST!

If you did, the spirit would have testified to you that I am sincere. And for the sequence of things, I can only blame timing.

[Onetimequestion]

Interesting, read alma. All you who call me an anti-Christ and that I have spoken with cunning words, I have done no such thing. I implore you to come unto Christ and be saved. Come unto the knowledge of your redeemer and LET THAT GUIDE YOU IN YOUR OBEDIENCE! Faith and WORKS ARE NOT OPPOSED!

But where is your foundation, is it with the church or with Christ? As I said, this is the Lords Church, but even the scriptures speak of Grace and being BORN AGAIN! yes it is by righteous works we are sanctified but by Grace are we JUSTIFIED! And it is LIBERTY TO TRUST IN GOD EVERY DAY!

I say, any man who does not follow coming to a knowledge of his own nothingness before God and the beauty of His grace with faith and works manifest of that change is indeed a liar.

For GRACE IS NOT LICENSE TO SIN! OR ELSE CHRIST IS THE MINSITER OF SIN! (Galatians)

But it is liberty from feeling burdened every day with a consciousness of guilt. Yes we must repent daily, but with His Grace and a constant dependance upon Him! Get on your KNEES AND PRAY!

EXPERIENCE IT! If this doctrine is not true, than to me the church cannot be true.

[Onetimequestion]

It's good to do good in doing righteousness and drawing near to God through righteous conduct, but it's not enough, we all have to come a knowledge of our own nothingness before God and an intimate and personal knowledge of His Goodness. This knowledge motivates us and propels us forward. And it is the most beautiful thing.

Tell me what is wicked about this?

[Dove]

Pretty presumptive, OTQ, for you to assume that you are, and we are not, when you don't even know who we are and you were the one possessed with "the demon" not too long ago.....

Your whole tone is assuming that we're all needing to be saved, I thought you were a member too? were'nt you? Now you speak as if we're all the "wicked one's"

OTQ, why don't you leave us to "worship" in peace, as we see to worship, God as we understand Him? Please? who are are to come control everything? where is the "grace" about that? Don't forget the 13th article of faith, can you grant us the same courtesy?

[georgia2]

All of us here accept our nothingness. THat is why we have given our hearts, souls, and mind to Christ. We all rely on and relish the fact that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have grace on us! Why do you keep coming back and preaching to us? Why are you continuing to preach about grace when we already get it and are very thankful for it?

[LittleWyvern]

Onetimequestion: If you'd like to lecture us, feel free to put it in its own thread so that we at least know what you're accusing us of. You've confused me completely by tossing away the topic.

[Hemidakota]

Perhaps a membership verification is needed at this point?

[Maxel]

Please close this thread. It is coming to nothing.

[Maxel]

Onetimequestion's most recent posts cement his agenda.

He is here to 'call us to repentance' and 'teach us what Christ really taught'. This from a person supposedly fearing he was possessed by a demon barely a week ago! He also flat out tells us we don't know Christ- otherwise we would 'know of his truthfulness'.

I hate being this contentious; someone please do something about this.

[Guest ceeboo]

Onetimequestion's most recent posts cement his agenda.

He is here to 'call us to repentance' and 'teach us what Christ really taught'. This from a person supposedly fearing he was possessed by a demon barely a week ago! He also flat out tells us we don't know Christ- otherwise we would 'know of his truthfulness'.

I hate being this contentious; someone please do something about this.

Very well Maxel, as you wish :)

THREAD CLOSED!!!!! It has run its course :)

Edited January 28, 2009 by ceeboo

[Islander]

Onetimequestion's most recent posts cement his agenda.

He is here to 'call us to repentance' and 'teach us what Christ really taught'. This from a person supposedly fearing he was possessed by a demon barely a week ago! He also flat out tells us we don't know Christ- otherwise we would 'know of his truthfulness'.

I hate being this contentious; someone please do something about this.

Yes! This is why I am glad, I guess many others are too, that I am not a Mod.

I always ask them: "why are you here?" You got to see the lame excuses they come up with in replay.

[Madriglace]

I just read the entire thread from start to finish and in doing so saw something that one wouldn't get by coming in in the middle. I saw a person crying out for help with a serious probelm and then suddenly "seeing the light" ... Satan will tell a 1000 truths to get us to believe one lie. I think this qualifies ... look at the contention and hard feelings this caused ... it drew everyone down ... and Satan is howling with glee ... he accomplished his goal.

I know where my grace comes from and how I need to use it. The atonement is very very personal ... it is about me and what I caused my Elder Brother to suffer ... and if by doing and being the very best I can I can repay some that pain ... how thankful I am that I can do that.

My prayers are with you Onetime ...

[bytor2112]

Also two nights ago I recieved a witness of God's grace. I've never heard us talk a lot about grace in the church and now it's affecting my faith in the truthfulness of the restored gospel. The general consensus seems to be that we work our way to heaven and at the end God says ok, great job here you go. This is the thought instead of trusting in God's Grace every single day.

This is blashphemy to me. Does anyone else understand what I'm talking about?

Spiritual experiences always help me realize if I am far off from what i SHOULD be doing. It was as if I felt keenly aware of His mercy and that there was NOTHING I could do to bring myself salvation. And it wasn't that I needed to "do my best". That was done. I needed to follow his Grace and trust in Him daily and have true faith. I felt like after I finished my prayer, there was this amazing feeling of peace and relaxation. I just laid on my back and looked at the stars and I haven't felt so at peace in years.

Is our church a grace church?

OTQ...... if you truly understood the gospel of Jesus Christ you would not ask such ridiculous questions as "is our church a grace church". I don't believe for one second that you are LDS. If you were you would know that we absolutely believe that it is by the grace of Jesus Christ that all mankind may be saved. Nice try........

[Guest ceeboo]

OTQ...... if you truly understood the gospel of Jesus Christ you would not ask such ridiculous questions as "is our church a grace church". I don't believe for one second that you are LDS. If you were you would know that we absolutely believe that it is by the grace of Jesus Christ that all mankind may be saved. Nice try........

Hey Bytor :)

Just a guess but he sounds Catholic to me

[bytor2112]

Hey Bytor :)

Just a guess but he sounds Catholic to me

I was thinking evangelical or Southern Baptist..........Catholics don't seem to have an axe to grind with Mormons. :)

[Maxel]

Very well Maxel, as you wish :)

THREAD CLOSED!!!!! It has run its course :)

Thank you... *Hopes that St Ceeboo's thread-closing powers are not lost.*