Which is Worse Excommunication or...

[OtterPop]

I sense you're angry at my remark.

No, just pointing out inconsistencies that I've noticed.

Your understanding of my meaning is entirely off base, as well. When someone hears a doctrine taught that affects them because of their lifestyle, they react in someway. If someone told me that all 21 year old white men who like to watch movies are actually Cuban in origin, then I would have to react someway to the information: either dismiss it, be amused by it, or look into the claim.

If it were something much more serious, like my eternal progression, it would be no laughing matter. However, I would still be forced to react. If someone called me 'eternally damned', I would have to react in some way, and my human nature wants to revile against it. However, I have to look at my own life and see if I am actually living in a way that merits eternal damnation.

You give yourself too much credit. I don't think or fear for my eternal salvation because of your understanding of what Mormonism teaches. I'm just having a discussion here.

[LittleWyvern]

No, we're not. How can salvation also be damnation? That's what is being asserted here.

Salvation in what sense? Salvation basically means being saved from something, whether it is death, sin, etc.

If you mean salvation in terms salvation from death, then this is definitely not damnation. All men will be saved from death and have eternal life (the difference is where you'll spend that time).

Personally, I don't use the term damnation the same way Maxel uses: I reserve it for condemning someone to hell (which I feel you may understand the term as). The terms aren't as important as understanding the concepts.

[OtterPop]

I actually don't believe in damnation or in the ability or need to be saved or redeemed, so I don't have any answer to your question.

I am genuinely surprised to hear Mormons using and defending the term eternal damnation to refer to what the D&C describes as glory. Seems very odd to me, so I was exploring with the two of you.

[LittleWyvern]

I am genuinely surprised to hear Mormons using and defending the term eternal damnation to refer to what the D&C describes as glory. Seems very odd to me, so I was exploring with the two of you.

Personally, I don't use the term damnation the same way Maxel uses: I reserve it for condemning someone to hell (which I feel you may understand the term as).

Uh... I don't.

EDIT: It may be helpful to note that the concept of "glory" is relative to the observer. Even the lowest kingdom, the telestial kingdom, has glory that is described as beyond our comprehension. So, while our progression is stopped here in this kingdom, it doesn't sound like damnation to me.

Edited January 26, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[OtterPop]

Uh... I don't.

EDIT: It may be helpful to note that the concept of "glory" is relative to the observer. Even the lowest kingdom, the telestial kingdom, has glory that is described as beyond our comprehension. So, while our progression is stopped here in this kingdom, it doesn't sound like damnation to me.

It doesn't sound like damnation to me, either, but you're the one who pointed out, "Eternal damnation is also used mostly within the LDS church to mean a lack of progression."

[LittleWyvern]

It doesn't sound like damnation to me, either, but you're the one who pointed out, "Eternal damnation is also used mostly within the LDS church to mean a lack of progression."

This is my fault then, I didn't mean to make it seem like it was universally used this way, or that it was the "right" term to use.

[Maxel]

No, just pointing out inconsistencies that I've noticed.

You give yourself too much credit. I don't think or fear for my eternal salvation because of your understanding of what Mormonism teaches. I'm just having a discussion here.

....?

At no time have I ascribed the term 'eternal damnation' to you, nor brought your own spiritual well-being into this topic. All of my examples have been from the first-person perspective, and have been purely demonstrative as opposed to real examples. In other words, I've been having a discussion. Judging by this remark, it seems that you somehow feel an emotional connection to the topic, as you are unable to distinguish example from actual fact.

Forgive the harsh implications of this next statement, as candidness seems the best approach here: you are simply unable or unwilling to comprehend what I'm explaining. Despite multiple posts explaining the meaning of 'eternal damnation' (how I'm using it anyway), you staunchly refuse to see the point I'm making, though it is not a hard one to grasp. When LittleWyvern offers an explanation for our disagreement (I believe 'verbal gymnastics' was the term he used) you flatly refuse that as a possibility, though it was actually the case. Then, there's the personalizing of remarks not aimed at your person. I see no further reason to pursue this discussion.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Maxel

[RodAZ]

Hi Gwen. You said, "you being said for reason to say something, i know you said this was about your friend. " I don't quite understand that. This is very real and not just to say something. I guess he's between a rock and a hard place and is thinking about withdrawing his name because the disiplinary council is taking so long to happen. It is REAL. Thanks for your comments and thoughts.

[Hemidakota]

I was wondering what you thought was worse, Excommunication OR requesting to have your name taken off the records of the church?

When someone is facing a disciplinary council they might have a decision of excommunication or requesting they be removed?

Thanks for your advice and feedback. My friend is facing a big decision.

RodAZ

Having your records removed.

Excommunication is done for your benefit.

[Gwen]

Hi Gwen. You said, "you being said for reason to say something, i know you said this was about your friend. " I don't quite understand that. This is very real and not just to say something. I guess he's between a rock and a hard place and is thinking about withdrawing his name because the disiplinary council is taking so long to happen. It is REAL. Thanks for your comments and thoughts.

what i meant is that i kept saying "you ...." when i know you said it was about your friend not you... so i guess technically i should have been saying "your friend..." rather than saying a name or your friend i just directed my comments at you. sorry for the confusion. i didn't mean to suggest it wasn't real or that i was just commenting to hear myself talk (i don't usually do that). i could just see your first comment being "i said this wasn't about me but my friend" therefore the disclaimer that obviously didn't help lol... anyway.. sorry

[Tarnished]

I thought of it this way: both separates one from God's church after having allying oneself with it for a time. Both are devastating and, if the spiritual causes for the excommunication/name withdrawal are not fixed, will result in one's eternal damnation in the hereafter.

However, I've seen and heard multiple accounts where someone excommunicated was re-baptized; same thing for someone who had their name withdrawn.

Your understanding seems to be a very harsh interpretation. I did a quick search on "eternal damnation" on lds.org, and that term appears to be generally used in connection with Satan, with those who followed Satan in the pre-existence, and with those who deny the Holy Ghost.

The problem here is how the word “damnation” is used. The most common use of the word in today’s world is “doomed to eternal pain and suffering” or as most people understand it doomed to hell. In the Mormon sense of hell this could be interpreted as eternal darkness. As we understand that it takes a rather heavy sin to be doomed to eternal darkness the idea of “eternal damnation” can seem like a very heavy pronouncement.

However, there are people who use the word “damnation” to mean a stop in progression, or a stop in moving forward. So a person who chose to live their life in a way that would halt their eternal progression toward God would thus by this definition be under “damnation”. A person who turned away from the church and then died without returning to the church would still have the chance to turn things around in the afterlife and begin to move back towards God, however the process would be a much longer and difficult process than it would have been if this person had started the process while still alive. However, if that person chooses in the afterlife to not change and not turn back toward God then their eternal progression would be halted or by the second definition they would be under “eternal damnation” as they have chosen to not go forward into eternal progression. It is all dependant on how you are using the word, or rather which definition you are going by.

It seems to me from my understanding of the discussion of the use of this word that it is the second definition that was intended by the initial comment made by Maxel. (Correct me if I am wrong)

In a forum like this, which is frequented by many people of many understandings who may take a word like this and understand it using differing definitions “damnation” is possibly not the best word to use in the situation based on the connotation or feeling that the word carries with it.

[JohnBirchSociety]

I agree, it seems that asking for your name to be removed is never right, unless youo don't believe the Church is true. If it is your intention to repent and return, then the only path is to let the disciplinary council convene. Then, accept its decision and work hard to be re-baptized.

I'm in the process of having my name removed from the records of the Church. Legally, as soon as notice is received of my intent, I am no longer a Church member. The process by which the Church administratively removes a name from its' roster is of no importance. Once the Church receives notice, then that person is no longer a member and that person is not subject to any Church discipline. If the Church attempts discipline after receipt of a letter of resignation then they can easily be sued.

Church Headquarters should receive my letter (with delivery confirmation) sometime this week. I can't wait!

[ruthiechan]

I'm in the process of having my name removed from the records of the Church. Legally, as soon as notice is received of my intent, I am no longer a Church member. The process by which the Church administratively removes a name from its' roster is of no importance. Once the Church receives notice, then that person is no longer a member and that person is not subject to any Church discipline. If the Church attempts discipline after receipt of a letter of resignation then they can easily be sued.

Church Headquarters should receive my letter (with delivery confirmation) sometime this week. I can't wait!

I am sorry to hear that.

[Angelao]

I'm another formerly devoted and active member who has officially left the church. I know that most people who formally request to leave the church, especially those of us who have been members our whole lives, do so only after a long process of weighing the benefits against the cost. The cost usually comes in the form of alienation from our LDS family and friends. If we truly believed our souls were faced with the LDS form of 'eternal damnation', we wouldn't leave. Those kinds of teachings don't scare us anymore (for me, the idea of being one of several wives to my husband and populating worlds with our offspring never much appealed to me anyway).

The benefit, for me, has been an incredible amount of peace in my heart and life, more than I ever knew in my forty years as a member. Please don't feel sorry for me, I'm in a better place than I've ever been in. My leaving had nothing to do with me wanting to engage in any sort of 'sin' either. Other than not believing in the church or its leaders, or paying tithing, I could easily and honestly receive a temple recommend today. Even though my husband is still a believing member, our marriage is stronger than it was when I was a member, because he fully supported me in my need to be true to myself.

If there are reasons your friend could be excommunicated, those issues would still be there to deal with if they tried to come back into the church. Excommunication carries more of a stigma, among LDS friends and family, than just requesting to be removed from the records. And remember, excommunications are done at the local level. Every court and its make-up are different. Some leaderships are more forgiving than others, some could be more harsh. Leaving the church, and then trying to come back, won't be the same experience for everyone.

[jadams_4040]

I was wondering what you thought was worse, Excommunication OR requesting to have your name taken off the records of the church?

When someone is facing a disciplinary council they might have a decision of excommunication or requesting they be removed?

Thanks for your advice and feedback. My friend is facing a big decision.

RodAZ

If your freind has a testimony then he/she needs to tuff it out and do whatever it takes to repent.:)

[YellowLight]

Your friend will make the ultimate decision to leave or be excommunicated. I have been inactive for a while now and have no plans to ever return but our family keeps their names on the record for the time being as we are not ready to cause contention with our family over religion. However, if your friend did something that is causing him to face excommunication, it really depends on his/her testimony whether or not to work through it.

Also, many people here are implying that excommunication is the same as having your name removed. There is a very distinct difference between resignation and excommunication and until members realize that, they create a division between them that is difficult to work through. Once my DW, two small children, and I resign, we will be non-members versus excommunicated members. Just food for thought.

[bytor2112]

Your understanding seems to be a very harsh interpretation. I did a quick search on "eternal damnation" on lds.org, and that term appears to be generally used in connection with Satan, with those who followed Satan in the pre-existence, and with those who deny the Holy Ghost.

From Helaman Ch. 12

23 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved.

24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.

25 And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord;

26 Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen.