Q re: Lucifer/Premortal Existence

[Heavenguard]

I was thinking about the devil, Satan, and the things we attribute to him.

- That he is named Lucifer

- He was an angel who rebelled against God

- A host of angels followed him when he was expelled from Heaven

Lucifer means Morning Star, and is coined in Isaiah 14:12 to mean the Babylonian King who captured Israel. Isaiah did not mean to name the devil; lucifer is the Latin translation of "morning star" (which, in our English bibles, are translated as "morning star", thus we never actually see the name "Lucifer" in the Bible anywhere).

The above-mentioned stories are from extra-biblical Hebrew tradition, so I started to wonder about the veracity of that story. The creation story is something of Hebrew tradition that I (and many) don't take literally, but rather allegorically, and wondered if perhaps this story should also be seen that way? I'm really not sure, but that's not the point.

I saw just earlier a thread that asked about things concerning Lucifer (meaning Satan), and it just made me go Ah, another source of information. So I wanted to ask, where do the little things that we do know about the pre-mortal existence, particularly Satan, come from?

[Guest tomk]

They come from the scriptures and from modern revelation through prophets and apostles.

[Maxel]

One major source is Abraham 3, particularly verses 22-28.

Abraham 3:22-28

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

There's more, particularly in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Beyond that, I believe much of our understanding comes from snippets of prophetic wisdom, either from the mouths of living prophets or the writings of previous ones. I don't know where to point you in those cases.

[a-train]

Abraham 3

Moses 4

Revelation 12

Jude 1

[Sergg]

I was thinking about the devil, Satan, and the things we attribute to him.

- That he is named Lucifer

- He was an angel who rebelled against God

- A host of angels followed him when he was expelled from Heaven

Lucifer means Morning Star, and is coined in Isaiah 14:12 to mean the Babylonian King who captured Israel. Isaiah did not mean to name the devil; lucifer is the Latin translation of "morning star" (which, in our English bibles, are translated as "morning star", thus we never actually see the name "Lucifer" in the Bible anywhere).

The above-mentioned stories are from extra-biblical Hebrew tradition, so I started to wonder about the veracity of that story. The creation story is something of Hebrew tradition that I (and many) don't take literally, but rather allegorically, and wondered if perhaps this story should also be seen that way? I'm really not sure, but that's not the point.

I saw just earlier a thread that asked about things concerning Lucifer (meaning Satan), and it just made me go Ah, another source of information. So I wanted to ask, where do the little things that we do know about the pre-mortal existence, particularly Satan, come from?

Not only this but Christ is also called in Revelation the 'Morning Star' , so if serious exegesis should be made in terms of it, it would all come down to Christ borrowing a terrible epithet. It is true that, historically(this is, of course, aside of all Lds past or actual teachings), the title 'morning star' as used in Isaiah(that* Isaiah, for there are at least two within the text, just as in Jeremiah, or the whole Torah) is ONLY to be grasped (as the rest that follows from such verse) as refering to the such King. Nobody in jewish tradition EVER interpreted it in terms of a Satan. The rabinical notion of a Satan came at least 600 years after the writing of such text.

And yes, furthermore , when it came to be taken as meaning the existence of a 'being' that represented such concept of Evil, it was also taken as allegorical*. Only christians truly exploited to their interests such verses of the jewish tradition, just as it introduced never-imagined-nor-permitted interpretations for other texts of Isaiah that historically refered to , say, Solomon (Is.6&7), but ended being the most messianic representative verses of all ever used by christian gospel-construction. And I mean, mostly, the early communities, not only later 'corrupted' trends.

So, one problem (that you seem to posit), opens up the pandora's box for other -related- problems that are even of deeper meaning if taken to be allegorical(this is, the very messianic origin of the founder of what later came to be christianity)...

interesting

Edited February 1, 2009 by Sergg

[Traveler]

I was thinking about the devil, Satan, and the things we attribute to him.

- That he is named Lucifer

- He was an angel who rebelled against God

- A host of angels followed him when he was expelled from Heaven

......

I do not know of any scripture that tells us Satan (Lucifer) was an angel. If anyone knows of any such scripture or revelation please post it. The only designation that I know of that references a title of Satan or Lucifer gives him the title (indrectly) of "g-d" in particular "g-d of this world".

The Traveler

[Sergg]

I do not know of any scripture that tells us Satan (Lucifer) was an angel. If anyone knows of any such scripture or revelation please post it. The only designation that I know of that references a title of Satan or Lucifer gives him the title (indrectly) of "g-d" in particular "g-d of this world".

The Traveler

Hum.... Maybe the fact that the Pearl of Great Price in both Moses and Abraham posits it, or that Christ in the gospels said that he 'saw' Satan fall from Heaven as a lightning, or that the epistle of Jude describes his battle and Michael's over Moses body; or that the ancient hebrew names with the same title, several beings, as the case of the Elohim. The fact that Job equates 'stars' with 'angels'(or christians do such equation); or the fact that lds theology and authorities hold it so (a most important criteria); or that the WHOLE LDS tradition has so believed it.

But even if you insist, "Except for the -as yet answered- cases of the PoGP, all other references only suggest he existed in the preexistence, or in a celestial or spiritual order. Now, that doesnt make him an angel", the fact is that tradition (both in and out of Lds theology) does believe that, be it what he was, he was there premortally, and 'fell', or underwent some change in status. Now, even if he is not officially declared in Scripture as an Angel of this or that Rank or place, it would be very little to ask of you what do we then make of him: If not an angel, what other Scripturally available sort of beings were there before Earth was created? It does no harm to its concept whatever 'title-dispute' you may have on it; what does, however, problematize it, is the anacronical positing of a such belief in Occidental Mythology as universal or obvious. We ought to remember that mythologically speaking, is Assyria and later Babylon the civilizations who produce and distribute the concepts of daemons(be them goood, as in angels, or bad, as in demons, or messiahs) among Near East cultures.

Now, none of that makes it truer. But then again, it is you who subscribe to many of such references as authoritative in so many unquestionable areas (as in Lds authorities and the Temple). It would be interesting to learn how you come to terms with it.

Edited February 1, 2009 by Sergg

[Maxel]

I think the misunderstanding arises from the term 'angel'. The way I've heard it described, 'angel' as a term can be applied to a variety of beings within LDS theology:

-A pre-mortal being without a body (like we were during the Great Council of Heaven, and like Satan and his followers are always doomed to be)

-A 'twinkled' being, like the 3 Nephites or John the Beloved

-A translated being, like Moses

-A resurrected being, like the angel Moronoi

So, Satan could be an 'angel' in the first sense, but not in any other, positive ways we might label an angel.

[Dove]

Hello, Traveler,

2 Nephei 2:17-18 comes to mind...

I've also heard that satan, before he rebelled, was an angel of light, of very high standing in the heavens....though I don't have any scriptural references to back this one up......Anybody?

Sad ending to such a being~

Edited February 2, 2009 by Dove

[jadams_4040]

I was thinking about the devil, Satan, and the things we attribute to him.

- That he is named Lucifer

- He was an angel who rebelled against God

- A host of angels followed him when he was expelled from Heaven

Lucifer means Morning Star, and is coined in Isaiah 14:12 to mean the Babylonian King who captured Israel. Isaiah did not mean to name the devil; lucifer is the Latin translation of "morning star" (which, in our English bibles, are translated as "morning star", thus we never actually see the name "Lucifer" in the Bible anywhere).

The above-mentioned stories are from extra-biblical Hebrew tradition, so I started to wonder about the veracity of that story. The creation story is something of Hebrew tradition that I (and many) don't take literally, but rather allegorically, and wondered if perhaps this story should also be seen that way? I'm really not sure, but that's not the point.

I saw just earlier a thread that asked about things concerning Lucifer (meaning Satan), and it just made me go Ah, another source of information. So I wanted to ask, where do the little things that we do know about the pre-mortal existence, particularly Satan, come from?

so why do we even consider the latin translation of lucifer? the bible was written in hebrew and then greek.:)

[a-train]

I do not know of any scripture that tells us Satan (Lucifer) was an angel. If anyone knows of any such scripture or revelation please post it. The only designation that I know of that references a title of Satan or Lucifer gives him the title (indrectly) of "g-d" in particular "g-d of this world".

The Traveler

2 Nephi 9:8: "O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more."

-a-train

[Sergg]

so why do we even consider the latin translation of lucifer? the bible was written in hebrew and then greek.:)

Because the Vulgate version, though of latter times than the greek copies we have from the first two centuries, was shortly elaborated and meanwhile with a richness of references and the careful idiosincracies of those scribes at the times of the greek fathers. So its standing, though obviously no way higher than the copies in Koine greek, is more of an 'artsy' thing, the fact that it represented a far-stretching step in translating its contents to a latinized mentality and culture. And often, from its usage of terms, we derive our modern-languages usage of most 'western' christian consciousness(vocabulary, concepts, etc.).

All in all its a very great work. Just as Luther's translation to german remains to this day, -mostly for its historical and cultural profound echoes-, very much a work of art and worthy of attention.

[trulykiwi]

'Morning Star' is also the title of which I believe to be the great and abominable church of the devil, set up here on the Earth (The Morning Star Religion). It's members are high ranking officials of Governments, Universities, and even the members of the Bilderberger corp, among many others.

[Vanhin]

I was thinking about the devil, Satan, and the things we attribute to him.

- That he is named Lucifer

- He was an angel who rebelled against God

- A host of angels followed him when he was expelled from Heaven

Lucifer means Morning Star, and is coined in Isaiah 14:12 to mean the Babylonian King who captured Israel. Isaiah did not mean to name the devil; lucifer is the Latin translation of "morning star" (which, in our English bibles, are translated as "morning star", thus we never actually see the name "Lucifer" in the Bible anywhere).

The above-mentioned stories are from extra-biblical Hebrew tradition, so I started to wonder about the veracity of that story. The creation story is something of Hebrew tradition that I (and many) don't take literally, but rather allegorically, and wondered if perhaps this story should also be seen that way? I'm really not sure, but that's not the point.

I saw just earlier a thread that asked about things concerning Lucifer (meaning Satan), and it just made me go Ah, another source of information. So I wanted to ask, where do the little things that we do know about the pre-mortal existence, particularly Satan, come from?

Hi Heavenguard,

Tomk actually said it. I just want to re-iterate, that our understanding of the pre-mortal existence is something we have because of modern revelation. Like many such doctrines, we can find support for it in the Bible, but the extent of LDS understanding on this matter is the fruit of modern revelation.

As far as what Sergg is saying, we hold the Bible to be the word of God, and as such we believe that the teachings of the Old Testament are of value to us as well as the New Testament. Even accounts with extremely strong historical content, referring to historical figures or events, are held by us to be there "for a reason". Thus, we find both allegorical and literal accounts to provide spiritual understanding and direction. So, the assertion that "Nobody in jewish tradition EVER interpreted it [Lucifer] in terms of a Satan", as Sergg pointed out, really has no bearing on the intended message of those passages of scripture. As the word of God we claim that the Bible is not primarily intended as a historical record, but a work of scripture, with spiritual value.

The same is true about the Book of Mormon. The stories contained in the record, though historical (by our beliefs), were specifically included by inspired men because they were of value to us as scripture.

As for Satan, we now know that he too was one of the spirit sons of God, and that he was cast out of heaven for rebellion, and that he drew a third of the hosts of heaven with him. Their purpose is our misery and damnation. They want us to be miserable like they are, because they will never again have a opportunity to progress like we do at this time.

That is our doctrine, and it is based on modern revelation and it is supported by the writings of the prophets of old too.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited February 6, 2009 by Vanhin
Wrong callsign...

[Vanhin]

2 Nephi 9:8: "O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more."

-a-train

This scripture is actually quite profound, and contains our doctrine concerning Satan. If the resurrection were not a reality, we would be like the devil, who will never have a body. He has lost that chance because he rejected the Plan of Salvation.

Those of us who accepted the plan, in otherwords anyone who is born into mortality, are guaranteed a body because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a gift to us because of our faithfulness in the pre-mortal world of spirits.

Because of the Atonement, we now have the added opportunity to be exalted like our Heavenly Father and his Christ, if we will choose to live the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus, we willl not only be resurrected, and have immortality, but we will also have Eternal Life.

This is what Satan wants to prevent. He has no hope of preventing the resurrection, because of the grace of God, but because of our agency in this life, we can choose to follow him and lose our exaltation.

Regards,

Vanhin