Where is it written that God obeys laws?

[Dr T]

I'm with u on that question Dyms

[Guest tomk]

Can the same be said of the sun not setting one day, or Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead? Or, for that matter, His own resurrection?

Yes, it could be said of all of these things.

We know about atoms.

We know atoms are made of even smaller particles.

And those particles are made of still smaller particles.

The smallest building blocks are intelligences. They act. If you have honor with them -- they will obey you.

This is how the sun can be made to stand still, how the dead can be raised to life, and how Jesus resurrected (and how we will as well).

These things are beyond OUR ability, but they are not beyond God's ability.

In none of this does God disobey natural law. He just has full access to it and a perfect understanding of it. He can speak to these intelligences!!

Abr. 4: 21, 25

21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

• • •

25 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth the beasts after their kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind; and the Gods saw they would obey.

The Gods saw "THEY" would obey ????????

Very odd wording!!!!!!!!!!!

Jacob 4: 6

6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

Trees, mountains, waves - obeying our command? Yes -- when we command in the name of Jesus.

Cleon Skousen has an excellet talk, given back in 1980 to a group of missionaries in Texas. It lays-out all of this in a very logical, detailed manner. It's worth reading!

Tom

[Dymmesdale]

Yes, it could be said of all of these things.

We know about atoms.

We know atoms are made of even smaller particles.

And those particles are made of still smaller particles.

The smallest building blocks are intelligences. They act. If you have honor with them -- they will obey you.

This is how the sun can be made to stand still, how the dead can be raised to life, and how Jesus resurrected (and how we will as well).

These things are beyond OUR ability, but they are not beyond God's ability.

In none of this does God disobey natural law. He just has full access to it and a perfect understanding of it. He can speak to these intelligences!!

Abr. 4: 21, 25

21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

• • •

25 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth the beasts after their kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind; and the Gods saw they would obey.

The Gods saw "THEY" would obey ????????

Very odd wording!!!!!!!!!!!

Jacob 4: 6

6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

Trees, mountains, waves - obeying our command? Yes -- when we command in the name of Jesus.

Cleon Skousen has an excellet talk, given back in 1980 to a group of missionaries in Texas. It lays-out all of this in a very logical, detailed manner. It's worth reading!

Tom

Where does the doctrine of intelligences come from?

[gabelpa]

All I can say is, it's Skousen. He's not a Prophet, just a very learned LDS Scholar who has had his own run-ins with the General Authorities.

[Justice]

Just wanted to throw this scripture out:

Matther 8:

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

Rebuked means he spoke...

Mark 4:

39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

Luke 8:

24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Other times He spoke as well:

Mark 1: 27

27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

And, the one I was leading to:

Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

3 And God said

6 And God said

9 And God said

11 And God said

14 And God said

20 And God said

24 And God said

26 And God said

29 And God said

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now, here are the great questions that you need to answer.

If God brought everything into existence from nothing, what was He speaking to?

If nothing existed prior to God speaking, what was there to obey His voice?

Again, the God you believe in who brought everything into existence from nothing is not the God of the Bible... who spoke to elements and they obeyed. Just as Christ showed power over elements when He was here, so His Father has power over elements and used that ability to create the heaven and earth.

[threepercent]

Where does the doctrine of intelligences come from?

mostly from the PofGP

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

and a little from the d&c:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

there is more, lots more. but you know, I'm not a prophet, like Skousen.

[Guest tomk]

Where does the doctrine of intelligences come from?

From the scriptures.

They are the foundation of ALL existence!

[Guest tomk]

All I can say is, it's Skousen. He's not a Prophet, just a very learned LDS Scholar who has had his own run-ins with the General Authorities.

I agree with not a prophet.

I agree with very learned.

I am not sure I understand your reference to him havin had "run-ins" with the General Authorities.

I've never heard of such a thing!

Do you have any sources I can reference that would back this up?

Seeing as President Monson and Elder Maxwell both attended his funeral, I hardly would agree that the Church or Church Authorities had a problem with Elder Skousen!!

Tom

[KoalaBear]

Saith the pot to the kettle . . .

/troll-feeding

Touche... Touche.

[Justice]

This thread appears to be dying down a bit. So, at the end of it, I'd like to state what I have learned while pondering the topic for those newcomers that go right to the end of a thread, like I do sometimes. :)

The fact that God *had to* send His Son to suffer and die is indeed proof that God obeys law. If it could have been accomplished any other way, He certainly wouldn't have required His Son to suffer and die. Jesus Christ even petitioned His Father in Heaven and asked if there was another way.

The answer came that there was not, because God followed through with His Son's atonement and death. This means God followed the law that required His Son suffer and die.

[aliasgeorge]

I agree with not a prophet.

I agree with very learned.

I am not sure I understand your reference to him havin had "run-ins" with the General Authorities.

I've never heard of such a thing!

Do you have any sources I can reference that would back this up?

Seeing as President Monson and Elder Maxwell both attended his funeral, I hardly would agree that the Church or Church Authorities had a problem with Elder Skousen!!

Tom

Elder McConkie took issue with:

1--the concept that we had agency before we were born as spirit children. He taught this by referencing the unified quorum statement: "doctrinal exposition on the father and son" where it says that the "intelligences" that Abraham saw were "spirit children," not any type of pre-spirit birth entities with agency.

2--Any doctrine that defies the truth that God is the supreme power and lawgiver, not subject to anyone else. He counsels that those who would pull out the verse "or God would cease to be God" look up the definition of the word "hyperbole." Of course God wouldn't do anything ungodly, but its not because there is a higher court that will judge him. Its because he wouldn't, because he is God. He can't because its not in His nature. And just as there is Eternal life, there are Eternal laws. Moses 7:35 and D&C 19:10-12 give us some insight as to what that means.

You can look up the McConkie references as easy as I can. I believe they are both addressed in the Promised Messiah. Elder McConkie doesn't stand alone in this. He has made his teachings more easily accesible than others though. Elder Bruce Porter has taught it in my ward as well, along with all of the members of the 12 and first presidency who signed the above cited reference.

Look, "elder" Skousen, or however you want to refer to him is a good guy. He spent his life teaching and trying to forward the kingdom in ways that would support his family. I have nothing against him, but everything he taught wasn't exactly right. And anything he taught that is inconsitent with a unified priesthood quorum statement is by definition wrong--end of discussion (see D&C 107:27,29).

Edited February 19, 2009 by aliasgeorge

[Guest tomk]

Elder McConkie took issue with:

1--the concept that we had agency before we were born as spirit children. He taught this by referencing the unified quorum statement: "doctrinal exposition on the father and son" where it says that the "intelligences" that Abraham saw were "spirit children," not any type of pre-spirit birth entities with agency.

2--Any doctrine that defies the truth that God is the supreme power and lawgiver, not subject to anyone else. He counsels that those who would pull out the verse "or God would cease to be God" look up the definition of the word "hyperbole." Of course God wouldn't do anything ungodly, but its not because there is a higher court that will judge him. Its because he wouldn't, because he is God. He can't because its not in His nature. And just as there is Eternal life, there are Eternal laws. Moses 7:35 and D&C 19:10-12 give us some insight as to what that means.

You can look up the McConkie references as easy as I can. I believe they are both addressed in the Promised Messiah. Elder McConkie doesn't stand alone in this. He has made his teachings more easily accesible than others though. Elder Bruce Porter has taught it in my ward as well, along with all of the members of the 12 and first presidency who signed the above cited reference.

Look, "elder" Skousen, or however you want to refer to him is a good guy. He spent his life teaching and trying to forward the kingdom in ways that would support his family. I have nothing against him, but everything he taught wasn't exactly right. And anything he taught that is inconsitent with a unified priesthood quorum statement is by definition wrong--end of discussion (see D&C 107:27,29).

And anything he taught that is inconsitent with a unified priesthood quorum statement is by definition wrong--end of discussion

Okay.

Well I guess the discussion is over, then. :)

Edited February 20, 2009 by tomk