Born-again, Not Again!

[Snow]

A recent born-again said this:

I was born in the covenant, served a mission, married in the temple, was in a Bishopric and served on a high council for 4 years. I taught early morning seminary 2 years in California. I know the Church and I know the doctrines. I appreciate the Church and all it does in the face of today's world. But I also experienced a completely genuine and undeniable spiritual regeneration where anyone who has experienced the same (regardless of denomination) share a distinct commonality of faith. This commonality is not orchestrated by Man or his ideas, does not succumb to dogma or religious doctrine, and can only be described as otherworldly. The results of this rebirth are a natural revulsion to sin and temptation, a fruitful desire to know, love, serve and please God from the deepest parts of the heart, and a God-given faith Man cannot produce by his/her own merits. Part and parcel of this rebirth experience is an overwhelming yearning to praise Jesus (in the heart and verbally) and a entirely new and fresh perspective of the Word of God (the Bible). Again, these things are not produced or generated in the heart of the transformed but naturally occur ONLY after God has touched their hearts. My point is, when I witness (hear and see) these elements evidenced in the general body of the Latter-day Saints, I'll believe that genuine spiritual rebirth is a viable, authenitc part of the religion. Active, honest Latter-day Saints must admit that rarely is the topic of spiritual rebirth every mentioned in church, and that when the rubber meets the road, Jesus is but a footnote to the religion. I am not slamming, I am stating what I feel is fact. Prove me wrong.

Boiling it down to the key points:

-Salvation comes from being reborn

-Being reborn from from acceptance of Christ and faith and not any collection of works or ordinances

-Mormons, as a general rule, don't understand this and aren't really reborn

-Being reborn defies adequate description but is a highly personal relationship between the person and God.

-Even though it is highly personal experience, and thus the validity of the rebirth not being comprehensible to anyone but the person involved, born-agains such as the author of the above, insist that they can tell, if not in individual cases - at least in general, that others, such as Mormons, don't have the right kind of rebirth/relationship with God. (he didn't say all that but we know the drill)

That is to say, they know/believe something (that others don't have a valid relationship with God), that they readily admit is unknowable. In other words, they say, "my relationship with God is right and only I can know it, your relationship with God is not right, and I also know that."

Go figure.

I doubt there are any born-agains, Mormon or otherwise, hanging around, but if so, feel free to opine.

[Jenda]

I think we all know that that is a snow job. (Get it, snow job. Ha Ha Ha )

I think that anyone who has had a life-altering experience with the Holy Spirit would be considered "born-again". I mean.................................. that's what it means.

I think that most people who have been "born-again", out of necessity, need to start at the lowest level of knowledge, because, well, that's where they are when they are born-again. All things are new. They are at the milk level. And that is fine, since it is the only place they can be, but then they have to start the process of re-learning the principles of the gospel and how they fit into the born-againness. Sometimes, it may not appear that some things fit where they seem to have been previously, but with prayer and seeking, the answers are revealed.

Yes, living in the love of God is very nice. God does love each and every one of us. We are His children. But, He has still given us commandments, and still wants us to obey Him. He is so pleased when we choose to make that commitment to do that even though we don't have to. Yes, we are all saved (different levels of glory) but He wants us to choose to spend eternity with Him. (He's like that. :) ) It doesn't mean he loves us better, it means we love Him better.

[Guest Starsky]

Charity/pure love of Christ fills your heart and you no longer desire to do any thing evil.

Alma 19: 33

33 And it came to pass that when Ammon arose he also administered unto them, and also did all the servants of Lamoni; and they did all declare unto the people the selfsame thing—that their hearts had been changed; that they had no more desire to do evil.

This comes from praying after repenting fully, sorrowing unto repentence, broken heart, contrite spirit...

Moro. 7: 47-48

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Then be still and know that God is God. That is rebirth.

Ps. 46: 10

10 Be still, and know that I am God...

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 4 2004, 11:39 PM

Charity/pure love of Christ fills your heart and you no longer desire to do any thing evil.

Alma 19: 33

33 And it came to pass that when Ammon arose he also administered unto them, and also did all the servants of Lamoni; and they did all declare unto the people the selfsame thing—that their hearts had been changed; that they had no more desire to do evil.

This comes from praying after repenting fully, sorrowing unto repentence, broken heart, contrite spirit...

Moro. 7: 47-48

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Then be still and know that God is God. That is rebirth.

Ps. 46: 10

10 Be still, and know that I am God...

Peace~

That was an excellent post! I said it outloud..EXCELLENT!

You know... I think that you've felt the sorrow, the hurt, the pain and the understanding of what Christ went thru! To know that a drop of His precious blood was given up for you! It sounds like you've gone thru the same realization that I have.

Snow~

Being reborn defies adequate description but is a highly personal relationship between the person and God.

Being reborn IS a very personal relationship between the person, God AND Jesus Christ....No one can understand the feelings except another who has experienced the same feeling.

I would say that there are many Mormons who have not felt the joy and exhilaration of "rebirth". Growing up in the church and being baptised at age 8 doesn't mean that, that individual ever had the great feeling of "being reborn" they just assume that the baptism means that they are "reborn" period...in an LDS sense they are; but in a traditional Christian sense that is just baptism without the true meaning of "rebirth".

Peace said it so well:

"Charity/pure love of Christ fills your heart and you no longer desire to do any thing evil.....

This comes from praying after repenting fully, sorrowing unto repentence, broken heart, contrite spirit...

Then be still and know that God is God. That is rebirth."

Let me just add this: To fully understand the sacrifice that Jesus made for you as an individual, to feel the pain of a broken heart, a contrite spirit, and to humble yourself to do His will, to understand what the pure love of Christ really means....and to then feel yourself totally in tune with the spirit, to feel the love envelop your entire being and knowing that your life and love for Him has changed forever....Giving your life to Christ, and wanting to live your life to please Him....to me that is rebirth. And that is what I have experienced.

I doubt there are any born-agains, Mormon or otherwise, hanging around, but if so, feel free to opine.

Snow~ I proudly wear the name of a Born Again Mormon..and I am sure that there are plenty out there who can say the same thing.....to me a Born Again Mormon is a very very good thing...not something to keep secret.

[Ray]

Well, I still prefer to call myself a latter-day saint. :)

Why “latter-day” ???

Because I’m living in the latter days of this Earth, before the Earth itself is reborn.

Why “saint” ???

Because “saint” comes from the word “sanctified”, the process of being blessed and made holy by Christ.

Calling myself a “Mormon”, or even a “Born-Again Mormon”, just doesn’t feel right to me. To call myself a Mormon is essentially saying that I am a follower of Mormon, and I am only a follower of Mormon to the extent that he followed Christ. It would be pretty much like saying I am of Paul, or Apollos, or of Joseph Smith, who I also follow only to the extent that they followed and follow Christ.

And while I’m in the mood for explaining things, I’ll explain something else.

Someone, who I shall not name, suggested that I could not describe how I have been reborn. Hmmph. Let’s just see how well I can do, without quoting scriptures, shall we?

I believe the power to be reborn comes through acknowledging Jesus as the Christ. And what is meant by “Christ”? “Christ” refers to the person who has the power to cleanse me from my sins, a person who must exist otherwise nobody would be able to cleanse me from my sins.

Ahh, but the critics say that that I should be able to cleanse myself from my sins. Oh really? When I do something that I feel that I should not have done, what power do I have to cleanse myself from the guilt that I feel? And why do I feel guilt? Because I “know” when I have done something that I should not have done.

I’m not talking about silly little things like not putting the cap back on the toothpaste, either. I’m talking about serious things, like telling a lie, for instance. And I’m not talking about telling a lie because I didn’t know any better either. I’m talking about saying that something is not true when I “know” that it is, or vice versa, that something is true when I “know” that it isn’t.

Does anyone really believe they can forgive themselves for doing something they “know” they should not have done? If someone else were to come up and say “Hey, telling a lie is okay”, would you believe them and then dismiss your own conscience that has been telling you that telling a lie is NOT okay?

Let’s consider that thought a moment. How do we “know” when something is right, and when something is “wrong”? What makes us think that we know what is true? Do we absorb those ideas in our youth, or from what other people try to teach us throughout our life here on Earth, or is there a more perfect way?

I believe we all have a conscience, and that a conscience is literally the Light of Christ. A light that shares the understanding of Christ about what truly is right and wrong. A light that shines in the darkness, and is shared with everyone in the world, even though some people choose to ignore it. But the more we listen to our conscience, or the Light of Christ, the more knowledge we will have to make good decisions. And by following our conscience, we will become more in tune with the will of Christ, doing only the things that He would do in our place. By following our conscience we are blessed and made holy through Him, because we are then able to know the things that He knows and do the things that He would do with that knowledge.

Ahh, but how can we become like Him when we have already made and continue to make mistakes in our life, by choosing to ignore our conscience? Through the power of forgiveness, my friends. Christ helps us to feel forgiven by renewing our conscience when we sincerely repent, when we are determined not to ignore our conscience in that thing again. If we are not determined to sincerely repent, our conscience will still bear witness against us, and we will not feel forgiven because we will know that we have not sincerely repented.

Two facts are inescapable. We know when we are doing something that we should not do, and there must be some way to feel forgiven for doing something we know we should not have done or we will forever go on with guilt. There must be a Christ, and I testify that Christ is Jesus.

[Guest Starsky]

Someone, who I shall not name, suggested that I could not describe how I have been reborn. Hmmph. Let’s just see how well I can do, without quoting scriptures, shall we?

You seem to be inferring that using scriptures to describe spiritual experiences is an undesirable thing. Why?

You describe your rebirth as something more akin to the 'non bornagain' latter day saints that I know. Knowing you have sinned and breaking down and crying over them, because the pain of sorrow is so great, having your heart broken by this experience is totally different than just repenting from your sins.

Okay...nuf of that...

Anyway, the issue you make about latter-day saint...because we are living in the latter-days.....

Did you know that the people in the time of dead sea scrolls also called themselves latter day saints?

[Ray]

You seem to be inferring that using scriptures to describe spiritual experiences is an undesirable thing. Why?

I wasn’t trying to infer that. I apologize if it appeared that way. I was just trying to share the process of being born again in a way that makes sense to me, in my own words, rather than just quoting some scriptures and then saying something like, “Yep, that’s how I did it!”

If you were to try to describe the process of your own rebirth, Peace, without quoting scriptures, how would you explain things?

You describe your rebirth as something more akin to the 'non born-again' latter day saints that I know. Knowing you have sinned and breaking down and crying over them, because the pain of sorrow is so great, having your heart broken by this experience is totally different than just repenting from your sins.

Heh, is this the type of response I should get from a fellow latter-day saint after trying to explain and describe my own personal “rebirth” experience? Hmmm. I wonder if [what’s his name] would have responded any differently. Where’s the Charity, Peace? Hmmm?

And btw, where did I say anything about breaking down and crying over my sins? If I had done that, would that be wrong? Would it be more acceptable to you if I were to now tell you that I have not done that? Do you really want to know whether or not I have cried?

Basically, to try to put things in more simple words for you, I was simply saying that a person only needs to follow their own conscience in order to be born again. That your conscience is the light of Christ that sheds light and understanding to everyone who comes into this world. That your own conscience will tell you what is right and what is wrong. That doing what is right and seeking forgiveness from Christ is all a person really needs to do in order to be born again. Sure, it helps to receive a confirmation of truth from the Holy Ghost. Who would not appreciate receiving a personal witness from God? Receiving a testimony from a prophet of God is great too. But Christ knows all the truth that anyone and everyone needs to know, and all the truth that anyone else knows will be in complete agreement with Him.

You want to know God? Just follow your conscience, and He will lead you to Him.

[Lindy]

Well, I still prefer to call myself a latter-day saint.

To be honest with you Ray, I prefer Latter-Day Saint myself... but to most people I talk to they only understand "mormon". I know, I know it's a bad habit, and one that we have been advised to break....but it's sooo hard sometimes. :)

OK..I am a Born Again Latter-Day Saint......LOL

I can live with that

[Guest Starsky]

I wasn’t trying to infer that. I apologize if it appeared that way. I was just trying to share the process of being born again in a way that makes sense to me, in my own words, rather than just quoting some scriptures and then saying something like, “Yep, that’s how I did it!”

If you were to try to describe the process of your own rebirth, Peace, without quoting scriptures, how would you explain things?

To describe my rebirth experience without scripture, would be to cause some people to think that is what they would have to look for for themselves. But...the scriptures are very poignant and say so much more than what I can about the experience.

They are less personal, and can reach and feed every soul according to their own individual circumstances.

Many with whom I have shared it, feel that that couldn't happen that way for them.....I so agree....thus I use scriptures...for their versitility and individual application. I have yet to find anyone who really has had the rebirth experience who couldn't totally relate with the scriptures I quoted above...like Lindy, she totally got it. And that is the way it has been with everyone who has experienced it. Those scriptures just reach out and eluminate the experience on a personal level.

[Guest Starsky]

Heh, is this the type of response I should get from a fellow latter-day saint after trying to explain and describe my own personal “rebirth” experience? Hmmm. I wonder if [what’s his name] would have responded any differently. Where’s the Charity, Peace? Hmmm?

And btw, where did I say anything about breaking down and crying over my sins? If I had done that, would that be wrong? Would it be more acceptable to you if I were to now tell you that I have not done that? Do you really want to know whether or not I have cried?

Total misunderstanding here. I was trying to state that this was part of the process...which I didn't read in your post. I was stating you lacked this deep pain and sorrow...not that you had it and that was wrong.

[Guest antishock82003]

Peace,

Are you fat?

[Spencer]

What does that have to do with anything AS?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 10:32 AM

Peace,

Are you fat?

Fat? Of course not. I was fat after having 19 pregnancies....but I got over it. My big problem right now is teeth...my teeth are fat.

[Guest antishock82003]

Well, one can post something pretty much any time during the day between the hours of 0600 to 10:00 at night and you can pretty much guarantee that she'll have responded within 1/2 hour. So I'm thinking she spends a lot of time seated in front of the computer surfing the 'net. So, curiosity is getting the better of me and I'm wondering if she's fat...because of the large amount of time she's spends seated...inactive. Just curious...didn't want to start a new thread for one simple question...

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 6 2004, 10:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 6 2004, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 10:32 AM

Peace,

Are you fat?

Fat? Of course not. I was fat after having 19 pregnancies....but I got over it. My big problem right now is teeth...my teeth are fat.

See? She's on it. Anyways...your teeth are fat?

[Spencer]

well the next time your curiosity grabs hold of in such a way, please feel free to use our PM function, as this question has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

Consider yourself warned.

Spencer

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Spencer@Feb 6 2004, 10:44 AM

well the next time your curiosity grabs hold of in such a way, please feel free to use our PM function, as this question has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

Consider yourself warned.

Spencer

Warned? Why?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 10:42 AM

Well, one can post something pretty much any time during the day between the hours of 0600 to 10:00 at night and you can pretty much guarantee that she'll have responded within 1/2 hour. So I'm thinking she spends a lot of time seated in front of the computer surfing the 'net. So, curiosity is getting the better of me and I'm wondering if she's fat...because of the large amount of time she's spends seated...inactive. Just curious...didn't want to start a new thread for one simple question...

LOL....Actually this is the first time this week I have been at the computer during the day. I was on it yester day at about 6am...until 7am at which time I got my kids up and started their day...I didn't get on again until waiting for my daughter to get home from work at 9:30pm.

That has been the way I have posted this whole week.

Today is friday...I have a little more time than I have during all this week...and I am bored...I have done all my housework, billpaying, wash, yadayadayada....

What about you AS...do you have a job or are you on welfare?

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 6 2004, 10:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 6 2004, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 6 2004, 10:42 AM

Well, one can post something pretty much any time during the day between the hours of 0600 to 10:00 at night and you can pretty much guarantee that she'll have responded within 1/2 hour.  So I'm thinking she spends a lot of time seated in front of the computer surfing the 'net.  So, curiosity is getting the better of me and I'm wondering if she's fat...because of the large amount of time she's spends seated...inactive.  Just curious...didn't want to start a new thread for one simple question...

LOL....Actually this is the first time this week I have been at the computer during the day. I was on it yester day at about 6am...until 7am at which time I got my kids up and started their day...I didn't get on again until waiting for my daughter to get home from work at 9:30pm.

That has been the way I have posted this whole week.

Today is friday...I have a little more time than I have during all this week...and I am bored...I have done all my housework, billpaying, wash, yadayadayada....

What about you AS...do you have a job or are you on welfare?

Oh, I have a job. I'm employed by Satan. He's actually very congenial and has a great dental plan. He doesn't like you, though. He thinks you're mean, and will not be inviting you to live with Him for all eternity. Hell has great golf courses...top that.

[Guest Starsky]

He (Satan) doesn't like you, though. He thinks you're mean, and will not be inviting you to live with Him for all eternity.

Thank heavens for that.

[Lindy]

Hell has great golf courses...top that.

Heaven has all the golf clubs and balls? B)

oh...I guess you can use the empty courses for dirt bikes!

VAROOM

[Snow]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 6 2004, 10:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 6 2004, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spencer@Feb 6 2004, 10:44 AM

well the next time your curiosity grabs hold of in such a way, please feel free to use our PM function, as this question has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

Consider yourself warned.

Spencer

Warned? Why?

Oh,

AS is on double-secret probation.

What's the problem with being fat Spencer? You act like AS has made an unwarranted moral pronouncement.

[Guest antishock82003]

Why Spencer? Please explain yourself.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 06:15 AM

Why Spencer? Please explain yourself.

AS8, we have stated in the rules that personal attacks would not be tolerated. The discussion board is to discuss the topics, not the people who are participating in them.

(Sorry, I'm not Spencer, but I hope the answer is adequate.)

[Snow]

Well okay, but what does wondering if someone is fat have to do with attacking anybody? Do you think being fat is evil? Do you think that wondering about it is immoral?