I'm In A Hole I Can't Get Out Of

[mark44]

also, possession doesn't make me innocent in the matter because i choses the thoughts and feelings which invited the spirits in in the first place. so it's still sin on my part. but i don't engage in homosexual acts. but sometimes i think my anger towards god is so bad that it often seems like even gay practising people would be shocked and that i'm commmititing a worse sin.

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by mark44@Jan 30 2005, 04:26 PM

also, in the new testament we find many ailments associated with possession by evil spirits. mary magdelene was possessed by seven of them. they also caused paralysis, dumbness and so on. if we as lds are saying that's just how the new testement writers interpreted tghings given their lack of scientific enlightenment we have today, than that kind of casts doubt on the entire gospel of christ. he spoke to the demons, they knew him, and he forbade them to discuss prior things iwth him. i believe there are evil spirits in or near me. i don't think possession means i have to float on the ceiling like in movies, though i'm sure this happens in extreme cases and i saw similar things on my mission in south america.

the guy who wrote reaod less traveled also thinks some people are "perfectly possessed" in other words, there's no resistance to the demonic influences and so they appear quite normal and are therefore quite evil, like hitler.

i am not gonna kill myself, but i'm angry. i often kneel in prayer and half way through scream profanity up at the ceiling. it's like something inside of me that hates christ so much whereas i really love him.

There is not a person out there that does not have darkness in them. Yours is the tendency of same sex. And from what I have read, you have not acted upon this tendency. It is not a sin to be gay. It is what you choose to do with that feeling. I admire a person who would have such strong feelings, and control them. Even though you may drink, my goodness you have what many persons LDS or not LDS do not have. I would say that you rejoice in what you have accomplished. You are way ahead of the many others.

As to having a family? That is your choice again. There are many good women out there who would support you in your quest of a family. Just be honest with them. But they are out there. I know that you are speaking from the bottom of the hole you think you are in, but many times it is just our perception of where we are at. I don't think you are as bad off as you think you are. There are many men who can not control their urges for other women, and there are men who do control these same urges and hold true.

[Franken]

It sounds like to me that your mad at God for some reason. What I think is your mad at Him for letting everything happen to you that did, and maybe homosexuality is just an act of rebellion in a sense along with the screaming profanities at the ceiling while praying. I'm probably quite off, but that's just what it sounds like to me.

I was reading the Sermon "Sinners in the hand of an angry God" by Jonathen Edwards the other day and it just astounded me some of the things he believed. Things as in how God didn't care about anyone and that he was dangling them above a pit of lava (Hell) as though they were mice ready to be dropped into the fire.

It was said people fainted of shock after Edwards had given his Sermon and I don't blame them. If that's who I thought God was, my life would be miserable, I can't imagine living in a church that contained such beliefs. God doesn't hate us, and God doesn't hate you.

God loves us and acknowledges us as an elect generation, some of the strongest people of our times. He doesn't give us trial because he dislikes us, He only wants us to do better.

Although, the first step to changing your life, is the desire. If you do something just because someone tells you to, it just doesn't last very long, i.e. (New Years resolutions heh ) I'm sure you've probably heard all this from other people before, and I've had people say stuff to me like, "Tell me something original not doctrine you took from someone else" but in all honesty, the trueness of the doctrine is always the same no matter who it's coming from.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 30 2005, 02:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 30 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 30 2005, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM

One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay?

The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change?

So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart.

Just preaching? It is about spiritual laws. If they have been given these teachings and choose to ignore them (which they are free to do) then they have chosen to ignore teachings which require a higher level of spiritual adherence. There are always laws and law breakers.

But Chimps aren't given the same laws as man. Get over it.

Really? Who made the law that says that being born gay is a sin?

Who said being born a gay was a sin? It is acting upon that weakness which is a sin. Why can't you separate these two concepts?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Fatboy+Jan 30 2005, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fatboy @ Jan 30 2005, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--mark44@Jan 30 2005, 04:26 PM

also, in the new testament we find many ailments associated with possession by evil spirits. mary magdelene was possessed by seven of them. they also caused paralysis, dumbness and so on. if we as lds are saying that's just how the new testement writers interpreted tghings given their lack of scientific enlightenment we have today, than that kind of casts doubt on the entire gospel of christ. he spoke to the demons, they knew him, and he forbade them to discuss prior things iwth him. i believe there are evil spirits in or near me. i don't think possession means i have to float on the ceiling like in movies, though i'm sure this happens in extreme cases and i saw similar things on my mission in south america.

the guy who wrote reaod less traveled also thinks some people are "perfectly possessed" in other words, there's no resistance to the demonic influences and so they appear quite normal and are therefore quite evil, like hitler.

i am not gonna kill myself, but i'm angry. i often kneel in prayer and half way through scream profanity up at the ceiling. it's like something inside of me that hates christ so much whereas i really love him.

There is not a person out there that does not have darkness in them. Yours is the tendency of same sex. And from what I have read, you have not acted upon this tendency. It is not a sin to be gay. It is what you choose to do with that feeling. I admire a person who would have such strong feelings, and control them. Even though you may drink, my goodness you have what many persons LDS or not LDS do not have. I would say that you rejoice in what you have accomplished. You are way ahead of the many others.

As to having a family? That is your choice again. There are many good women out there who would support you in your quest of a family. Just be honest with them. But they are out there. I know that you are speaking from the bottom of the hole you think you are in, but many times it is just our perception of where we are at. I don't think you are as bad off as you think you are. There are many men who can not control their urges for other women, and there are men who do control these same urges and hold true.

Great statement Fboy! I really like this

I admire a person who would have such strong feelings, and control them. Even though you may drink, my goodness you have what many persons LDS or not LDS do not have. I would say that you rejoice in what  you have accomplished. You are way ahead of the many others.

Mark44~ RESPECT is what I have for you All the lies and the vices aside, I agree with Fatboy....you need to rejoice in what you have accomplished....

And you can climb out of that hole/pit you have found yourself in.....one tiny step at a time.

Professional help is another step you need to take, cause you have already made that most important step......admitting there is a problem....everything else from now on is just another step closer to the top of the pit.

My two cents.....have you tried that gay mormon website? I know it is out there, maybe knowing that you are not alone with how you feel about things may help.

And for the skeptics out there..... Hey, everyone knows how I feel about things....but I am not one to turn my back on someone who needs and asks for help.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Jan 30 2005, 07:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Jan 30 2005, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 30 2005, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 30 2005, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM

One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay?

The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change?

So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart.

Just preaching? It is about spiritual laws. If they have been given these teachings and choose to ignore them (which they are free to do) then they have chosen to ignore teachings which require a higher level of spiritual adherence. There are always laws and law breakers.

But Chimps aren't given the same laws as man. Get over it.

Really? Who made the law that says that being born gay is a sin?

Who said being born a gay was a sin? It is acting upon that weakness which is a sin. Why can't you separate these two concepts?

Who said it was a weakness? Is hetersexuality a weakness?

[Fatboy]

Originally posted by Cal+Feb 3 2005, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Feb 3 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 30 2005, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 30 2005, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 30 2005, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM

One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay?

The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change?

So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart.

Just preaching? It is about spiritual laws. If they have been given these teachings and choose to ignore them (which they are free to do) then they have chosen to ignore teachings which require a higher level of spiritual adherence. There are always laws and law breakers.

But Chimps aren't given the same laws as man. Get over it.

Really? Who made the law that says that being born gay is a sin?

Who said being born a gay was a sin? It is acting upon that weakness which is a sin. Why can't you separate these two concepts?

Who said it was a weakness? Is hetersexuality a weakness?

FB: Desires for the opposite sex should be used with the bounds the Lord has set. Even though men may have desires for a woman they are not married to, they are to remain faithful to the covenants they have made to God and their spouse. Same sex desires as with any desires and appetites should be controled.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Cal+Feb 3 2005, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Feb 3 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 30 2005, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 30 2005, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by -Amillia@Jan 30 2005, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 29 2005, 05:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 29 2005, 01:34 PM

One last little point: If gayness were this big sin and simply a moral indiscretion, how do you explain that the rate of gayness in humans is similar in rate and quality to gayness in chimpanzees? And is also present in other mammalian groups as well. Did God create gayness? It appears He did. How then is it a sin? Did God create sinful things? Are chimps going to answer to God for being gay?

The last time I heard, Chimps didn't have the teachings of the prophets or the level of accountability to sin. When did that change?

So, you think that just preaching to a gay person is going to stop them from being gay? Maybe we could preach to the Chimps too--they are actually pretty smart.

Just preaching? It is about spiritual laws. If they have been given these teachings and choose to ignore them (which they are free to do) then they have chosen to ignore teachings which require a higher level of spiritual adherence. There are always laws and law breakers.

But Chimps aren't given the same laws as man. Get over it.

Really? Who made the law that says that being born gay is a sin?

Who said being born a gay was a sin? It is acting upon that weakness which is a sin. Why can't you separate these two concepts?

Who said it was a weakness? Is hetersexuality a weakness?

Well if you are going by the definition God gives homosexuality and hetersexuality. NO it isn't a weakness, it is part of the plan of eternal life, and continual progress through out all eternity.

Homosexuallity can't, by any difinition, be classified with hetersexuality because it reproduces nothing, it doesn't give nesessary diversity to the children who might be unfortunate enough to find themselves raised by them.

It has been an on going studies, many which prove children need a father and a mother. Many have to go without one or the other due to divorce, which couldn't be helped, but to purposes create such an environment for children is detrimental at best, and sick at worst.

[Amillia]

The one thing I have yet to have explain clearly to me on this subject is~

Why, if two men want to be together or two women want to be together, one acts like a male and the other a female. If female and male wasn't an important element in a real relationship, why would each couple not be all mocho male or sweet feminity?

It is just plain silly. It is meant for men to be with women and women to be with men and that is why even the diviant follow this pattern.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 4 2005, 12:53 PM

It has been an on going studies, many which prove children need a father and a mother. Many have to go without one or the other due to divorce, which couldn't be helped, but to purposes create such an environment for children is detrimental at best, and sick at worst.

Would you rather kids grow up in foster care, being bounced around from home to home, or in an orphanage than to be adopted by stable, monogamous gay parents?

Sure, it's not ideal IMO, but it's better than what would possibly be the alternative.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Feb 4 2005, 12:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Feb 4 2005, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 4 2005, 12:53 PM

It has been an on going studies,  many which prove children need a father and a mother. Many have to go without one or the other due to divorce, which couldn't be helped, but to purposes create such an environment for children is detrimental at best, and sick at worst.

Would you rather kids grow up in foster care, being bounced around from home to home, or in an orphanage than to be adopted by stable, monogamous gay parents?

Sure, it's not ideal IMO, but it's better than what would possibly be the alternative.

You ask that question as if there are no other choices. There are pleanty of choices better than being in a home with people who don't really know who they are.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 4 2005, 11:57 AM

The one thing I have yet to have explain clearly to me on this subject is~

Why, if two men want to be together or two women want to be together, one acts like a male and the other a female. If female and male wasn't an important element in a real relationship, why would each couple not be all mocho male or sweet feminity?

It is just plain silly. It is meant for men to be with women and women to be with men and that is why even the diviant follow this pattern.

Shanstress, would you address this for me? I am interested in your thoughts.

[shanstress70]

OK, yes I will address it. For some children, there will never be anything more than countless foster homes or an orphanage. There are some kids with special needs who, unfortunately, will never be adopted. They may be older kids, minority kids, or have health or behavioral problems.

I do not think that gay people should get to adopt babies that someone else would adopt, but I am all for them being able to adopt these 'unplaceable' ones - IF they are in a stable, monogamous relationship and are able to love and care for the kids.

I have shared this once before long ago, so ignore it if you've already read it. My cousin, who came to live with us at age 13 or so (so I think of her as a sister), is a lesbian. Her and her partner have been together for 8 years. They are the most wonderful people I've ever known. They give so much to humanitarian causes (money and time), and would help anyone in need. However, some people think that b/c of their sexual orientation, they are bad people. This is ridiculous to me! I don't care about someone's sexual practices. I do care if they contribute to a greater good. My cousin and her partner do!

Anyway, they want to adopt, but know that is nearly impossible. So they went through the foster care training. Still, they had a hard time getting a kid placed with them. Oh, they'll place kids with white trash families who just want the monthly foster care check to buy more cigarettes or liquor or whatever... b/c they are heterosexual. That's the most important, right?

So, they finally got asked if they would take in a 19 year old girl who was due any day, and her 2 year old son. She is able to be in the foster system till 21 since she has kids. She had gotten kicked out of the home they were living in. Sure, they said. Well, they treated this girl so wonderfully, bought her a car, helped her with childcare, basically took COMPLETE care of the new baby when it was born, b/c the girl had no interest in him.

Eventually, the girl got kicked out of the system altogether, and had to move out of my cousin's house. She left the kids with my cousin. They have had the two kids for over a year now. Being a mom, I'm sure you can imagine how attached you can get to a toddler and a baby in that time. AFTER ALL THIS, they still will probably not let them adopt the kids if the mom gets her parental rights taken away, which is likely to happen - unless they lie about their sexual preference. This was told to them by their caseworker. So they continue to keep them, and will as long as they are able to. They are not likely to be adopted though even if taken from their mom, because one is of mixed race, and one is almost 3. They love them like their own... a helluva lot more than their own mom loves them!

I think there are some situations in which gays should be allowed to adopt. I understand that it would not be ideal if there are a married man and woman looking to adopt. Also, I would not expect them to let two promiscuous gay lovers adopt.

One other thing... 'gay person' does not equal 'pedophile'.

[shanstress70]

Sorry, I just realized that wasn't what you wanted me to explain! Oh well, you got my explanation of my previous post even if you didn't want it!

Now, let me answer your other question. I DON'T HAVE A CLUE! I don't understand it at all. But, I still don't agree that they are 'deviants'. If so, then God created them to be deviants, IMO.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Feb 4 2005, 01:31 PM

Sorry, I just realized that wasn't what you wanted me to explain!  Oh well, you got my explanation of my previous post even if you didn't want it!

Now, let me answer your other question.  I DON'T HAVE A CLUE!  I don't understand it at all.  But, I still don't agree that they are 'deviants'.  If so, then God created them to be deviants, IMO.

I enjoyed your post, though it didn't address the question. I agree with all of what you have said. And I must say the word 'deviant' wasn't the best word to use because most will attach it to all behavior and all character. I was only using it in reference to 'deviant sex'....scripturally taught.

I know that 'being very great people' isn't something attached to what kind of sex one prefers. Nice people can be sexually deviant, and mean people can be hetersexuals.

I don't think being gay makes one mean or good. The people are either mean or good with or without sexual conduct being a fundamental issue for cause.

So, thank you Shanstress. I think it is important to take each and every case on a one at a time basis in everything. Grouping isn't smart. Too far reaching generalizations are just too limiting and unjust.

[tarabc]

Mark,

Dont hate gays! There are righteous homosexual people in the church, they are not bad! I hate it when LDS people think that, so narrow minded. Heavenly Father knew what he was doing when he made you. Dont get me wrong, I cant imagine being in your situation. Maybe your life mission isnt the typical get married have kids, but be a missionary, service... thats for you to figure out.

Being gay and your salary do not define you. Not at all. Being a good person is what does, dont be tricked! Personally, I give you major props for continuing everday, that would be hard, you could be an inspiration and a source of hope to sooo many in similiar situations.

tara

[pam]

I"m going to close this thread as it was started in 2005.