Divorce...

[Cal]

Originally posted by estump@Feb 9 2005, 10:00 AM

First...I haven't read the entire thread. I read Cal's and I had to speak.

I find this idea that men will absolutely go find other women to sleep with if thier needs are not met, childish and immature. IF there was an inkling that the man I married would wimp out just to have an orgasm then he is not a man I want to be with.

DH and my agreement always was...if you're gonna cheat...just divorce me first. We both will not put up with it. We saw the damage it did to each set of our parents relationships and deal w/ the aftermath of all of that still to this day. if you cheat you weave webs of hurt and deciet and distrust and loss of respect from so many people around you....especially if you have children.

The way to not get divorced is to want to give your best to your partner and do what it takes to make them happy. DH and I believe this whole heartedly. Do we still drive each other crazy at times...yes. There are times when we both want to throw in the towel and call it quits. (me more than him, I am sure! LOL!) However If you make a promise...keep it. If you and Dh are not abusing each other...and have normal problems...then deal with them. Do we still get selfish and ancy for our individual needs...ALL THE TIME. It is about rewinding and refocusing. Sometimes a good argument is all we need to clear the air. Just be prepared to apologize and willing to see the other person's insight into who you are...though sometimes you have to swallow A LOT OF PRIDE!

MOST of my friends are my age...around 28...been married about two years. They are heading into the same problems DH and I had. I am so glad we've been together seven years, so I can tell them...w/ work and love and charity towards each other...it is work...but worth it. It's nice to see we weren't the only one's who struggled.

DH and I have been through a great loss together. We talked about our different grieving styles. We give each other space and let each other grow. Allow each other room to have friends and to explore interests.

Each person will bring their own baggage...that crap will come out. Do you run? NOPE.

Now I understand and feel badly about my weight gain. However my husband has been so dang understanding about it. Being in bed for nearly 13 months w/ two consecutive pregnancies does that to a girl. However, we have a deal...I lose the weight by the time I am 30 in a little over two years and he is taking me to Ireland. I am a type 1 diabetic....so I rely on him A LOT to be my coach and to support me. It's tough and wearing. I am beginning the journey to weight loss w/ the local hospital. I know if I don't like it...then he doesn't. HOwever I had some babies...and they are his children and my husband absolutely NEVER EVER bugs me about my weight gain. He may occasionally throw out a joke...but I am okay with that and if I am feeling sensitive, I tell him so. He also does not with hold any affection from me at all....and that kind of trust allows me to be openly intimate with him.

Talk about your sexual needs, finances, child rearing, dreams and hopes, religion, spirituality BEFORE you get hitched. You don't want to find out some person thinks and feels differently a couple years down the road. THAT being said....people do change. My husband and I were on the same page spiritually when we were hitched. Over the years some of his ideas have changed...so we compromised. He doesn't interfere w/ the way I raise the kids and supports my church going. He supports and considers himself LDS...but he does walk his own path and I certainly respect that about him. I fully expect him to talk to the kids about his views if they ask. I am not threatened by this as I once was. I have a lot of peace about it now and I am not worried. In fact he has challenged me and I appreciate that.

I will say our sexual appetites are different. Diabetes can affect that. However, I don't dismiss his feelings. We talk a lot about what we like and don't like. I find many people are just too afraid to do this. I think that is sad. We don't normally go very long w/ out being intimate with each other. It's one of the best ways for a couple to connect and it is important. Anyone who says it isn't should talk to the spouse who isn't getting any. THere have been down times where I wasn't medically allowed to have sex (while pregnant)....so you compromise and become creative. I would NEVER expect me to go w a month without sex.....I would never dream of letting my husband. Talking about sex and what hangups a person has...should happen again, before marriage. What works for DH and I may not work for other couples.

It's important to be able to bring each individual back to a place of comfort and security when life gets tough. I have a tendency not to mention how much I appreciate the hard work my husband does earning the money so I can stay at home w/ the kids. We are not rich...but we do make it. We don't own a home...but we have a roof over our heads. He also is honest enough to tell me when he feels taken for granted. I try to make up for it when he feels that way and he does the same for me. It's usually when we neglect each other and forget to be consistantly kind and respectful that problems arise.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself...is the ultimate way to focus on your marriage.

ONE Thing I have learned is to give DH down time when he gets home from work before I start talking about what the kids have done...or what hasn't gone well in my day. I find he is totally receptive after he's had the time to relax...but if he's still wired...he doesn't want to hear it. I've learned not to be offended that he doesn't want to hear about me every second of every day. LOL! Each couple, with work can find their niche. Pray together...read scriptures....be gentle....let go of all expectations about what they 'should' be and work w/ what is.

I am so glad that there is this topic today. I needed it!!! It's good to remind myself to behave more wisely and lovingly toward the man I chose to be w/ FOREVER! I have to remember to give DH a huge kiss when he gets home today!

Do you feel better now? Do you feel vented? Great, now maybe I can ask why you didn't read anything I said.

Did I advocate not being faithful to your spouse? Did I suggest that people cheat on eachother? You completely misread and misinterpreted what I said. Go back and read it again, I don't feel like repeating myself.

[Cal]

Originally posted by estump@Feb 9 2005, 10:14 AM

Jenda...

That's definitely passive aggressive behavior!

I should also note our marriage just went through a rough spot....it was tough, but I am glad to be on the other side of it now. I love my husband and I know that he loves me. Even with that knowledge it is STILL TOUGH. So don't get married until you know you are mature enough to handle being w/ someone 24/7 for the REST of your LIFE. I married young and for me that was good....because if I had thought about it, I'd still be a happy bachelorette! I would have never grown up.

A happy bachelorette? What is wrong with being happy? Are you saying you're not happy now? Actually, getting married before you are 25 is almost always a bad decision. People are not ready for marriage that young. Yes, you may have to live with it, but as you said, you traded that for happiness.

[DisRuptive1]

I asked a woman (girl):

"Are you ready to get married?"

She told me that she was totally ready. She had all the bride's maid dresses prepared, she was going to wear her hair long and all nice, she had an awesome cake prepared, she was going to get married in a lovely chapel, and that everything was planned out perfectly.

I then asked her:

"But, are you ready to get married?"

Marriage isn't just about that one event that starts out the car-on-the-traintracks-train derailment. Just a thought.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 9 2005, 12:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 9 2005, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -yaanufs@Feb 9 2005, 11:51 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 12:37 PM

But when one is constantly giving in to the needs of the other, the relationship becomes one-sided.  Both need to realize and meet each other's needs, but how do you stimulate the uninterested party?

I can't help you. I don't know enough about your situation. I certainly don't know the view of your husband so I can't really comment with any degree of authority.

I suspect there is lot more going on in your relationship than you are comfortable posting on a web site, understandably. I suspect there has been many discussion between you and yur husband where he has felt dismissed by his wife.

I suspect the issue of sex has been discussed in your relationship and you have felt he has too many needs that are unreasonable for you to fulfill. Again I wouldn't expect you to post all that information but without knowing you or your husband I cannot suggest ways to stimulate the uninterested party.

I can tell you one thing though. A male would happily walk over hot coals for a woman he loved, he would give his own life for the woman he loved, he would do anything. If he truely felt he loved you and he truely felt you loved him then he would do anything for you. Is the problem he doesn't love you or is the problem you don't love him unconditionally and he knows it?

You might not think that is fair but it doesn't take much for a fragile male ego to be bruised and to feel unloved by his wife. We are simple creatures and it doesn't take much to make us happy, but it also doesn't take much to make us feel unloved in a relationship.

yaanufs, believe me, sex is not a problem in our marriage. When nothing else is going right, we can always bank on the sex. B)

He may feel dismissed by me, but it is only because he has long since dismissed me.

My thought is that he has not learned how to multiply his love. He loved me more than I can say when we got married, and as soon as our daughter was born, I felt he had to choose who he was going to love, and so he chose her. Instead of multiplying the love, he just transferred it.

Jenda--what I hear is that he is taking you for granted. Maybe he can't help himself. As yanuff said, we don't know him, we don't have a way to get into his head,and we don't know the situation. But, obviously, you don't feel he values you the way you want to be made to feel valued. Obviously, he doesn't feel he could lose you. Or if he does, then he doesn't care. Will he go to counceling with you (I don't recall if you said anything about this).

If he won't go to counceling, and you are really that unhappy in your marriage, find some legitimate things to do OUTSIDE the home. Leave him home and go to the gym, start doing things that show you value yourself. You can't value someone that doesn't value themselves. Find some friends outside the home (females) and go to the show with them, or go bowling with them. Make him miss you a little bit. Don't do it with an attitude that says, "I'll show you". Just be quietly confident about it and show him that if he doesn't want to spend his time with you, or to treat you right, then you are going to make some friends elsewhere. If that doesn't work, then decide whether you want to live like this forever. If not, get out if you really can't stand it.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Feb 9 2005, 12:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Feb 9 2005, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 12:37 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--yaanufs@Feb 9 2005, 11:15 AM

Is it only me that has noticed that one one side of the debate we have women telling men how wrong, how childish and self centered they are.  And on the other side we have the men telling the women how wrong they are and how it is the women's fault for being so needy / sexually repressed / emotionally unstable.

Top stuff. 

Perhaps their is truth in Cal's words, perhaps there is truth in the females words, but as long as one side continues to dismiss the views of the other then what hope is there?

I realize that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. That we have different kinds of needs that need taken care of. But when one is constantly giving in to the needs of the other, the relationship becomes one-sided. Both need to realize and meet each other's needs, but how do you stimulate the uninterested party?

Totally withdraw and see what happens. If he withdraws more, rather than persues or complains, then you know there is somewhere else he is getting what he needs.

If, OTOH, he complains or persues you, you know he is interested and that is the time to talk about what is going on with you both. Tell him how you want the marriage to go, how you feel about things he is doing and ask him what he wants from the marriage and what he thinks can make it better.

Start with some kind of real verbal communications, rather than you going to the computer and he only setting places for himself and his daughter.

Also ask him what the word 'family' means to him. Does it mean father and daughter? Or does it mean mom, dad, and child? In that order!

I'm glad to see Amillia and me agreeing on something. You have to make yourself unavailable at some level. You have to play a "game". Now,"game" is just a word, the word is not the "thing". The "thing" is that humans are prone to take eachother for granted and to act out prior relationship conditioning. He probably did see an example of controling behavior. At least, something made him that way. Maybe you will never know, but people can change. Especially if they feel like they could loose something they love, take for granted, but still love. Some people don't know HOW to treat the other person. YOu have to teach them, but first you have to get their attention. The only way to do it sometimes is to make yourself less avaiable.

Before you take any of our advise though:

Talk this over with a professional councelor if you can find a good one--make sure they really good though--there are a lot of incompetents out there.

[Cal]

Originally posted by yaanufs@Feb 9 2005, 12:55 PM

Totally withdraw and see what happens.

It sounds like she has already done that and is reaping the rewards for it.

Hint: he sounds like he has already gone down that route and has decided not to bother chasing anymore. I suspect you will find he will not chase again.

and ask him what he wants from the marriage and what he thinks can make it better.

DANGER, DANGER. This is a loaded question and will make a man think very carefully before answering. This type of question will not be answered in a meaningful way considering the current relationship problems you are facing.

Also ask him what the word 'family' means to him. Does it mean father and daughter? Or does it mean mom, dad, and child?

SUPER-DUPER DANGER ALERT. Do not ask this question. It is a sure fire way to get an anser that you don't want to hear and that your husband probably doesn't mean. I guarantee you that your husband will give a negative answer to this question. You are both so far down the route where you are playing controling games with each other that he will treat it as another one of your games.

You need to begin communication, ther eis no doubt of this, but these questions will not help a male to open up. They are a long way down the road before you can expect any sensible answer to them. As a male you need to trust me on this. You will make the situation worse by going in with guns a blazin' asking these types of questions.

Yeah, I have to agree with that. The guy obviously has a hard time communicating--don't rely on skills he doesn't have.

You REALLY need a distinterested third party, a professional councelor to get you two communicating. I suspect nothing can unravel this but a really competent marriage councelor. Do it and do it now! Research the councelors in your area (don't just rely on some Bishop or priest--find the best one in the county--do your homework on this one--think of what is at stake.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 02:55 PM

Sheesh. What is it with the men on the board. Are thy so insecure in their own marriages that they feel they have to ridicule others and call them liars, or something?

Yaanufs, I'm sorry I got into this debate with you. You obviously wouldn't know a truth if it slapped you in the face, your advice stinks, and you need to find a way to put some trust in your life.

Let me ask you a question, yaanufs. What do you consider a good sexual relationship? Do you measure it by quantity, or quality? If the quality is bad, does the quantity make up for it, and vice versa? I am just wondering why you feel that you need to judge others by your outlandish standards.

Oh, one more question. How old are you? You post as if you are in your early twenties.

Jenda--where did yanuff call you a liar? He seems to be honestly interested in listening to your problem. He just sees it from a man's point of view. That is something you are going to have to do if you are going to make any progress.

Of course there is no excuse for the emotional abuse you seem to be enduring, but there is a lot of merit in what yanuff has said. But it has becomes very apparent to me just in reading the last few postings that your problem is way beyond your own expertise to solve. YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL COUNCELING.

I'm going to keep telling you that until you go and get it!

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 9 2005, 05:20 PM

Well, now that I have aired all my dirty laundry in public,    , let me say that, while this sounds bad, it sounds worse than it really is.  There are lots of positive things that make up for the unpleasantness.  True, I wish it was not present, but life would be no fun if it were all peaches and cream, right?  B)

Sounds worse than it is? What are you trying to do? Now are you playing games with us?

It really sounds like you are turing inward on yourself and showing some real lack of self esteem. Buck up girl! You are worth more than that. Quit denying the truth of what you have just told us. Don't spill your guts and get us all worked up trying to help you, and then do an about face with "it sounds worse than it is". If if it wasn't as bad as it sounds, then why did you spill all that to us?

It sounds like you have a real problem. It is called low self esteem. The typical response of a person with low self esteem to abuse is to justify the other person and to downplay the pain they feel--like they don't matter to themselves.

This is not meant as a put down, just straight talk.

Go to a councelor and find out who you are, get an identity so you can quit tolerating a miserable marriage.

[Cal]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 9 2005, 08:36 PM

I just started reading this thread, and my heart goes out to Jenda... it's hard to be treated as a second class person from someone who is supposed to love you.

yaanufs~ you had some real good posts, and I understood a lot of what you were saying and then you go and say this!

If you want to find out the truth PM his mobile phone number and his name and I'll call him and ask him.  Man to man he'll tell me the truth about how he feels about you and why he feels rejected by you.  I'm pretty sure after he has gotten over the shock and he realises I am on his side he'll open up.

Then I'll let you know what he is thinking.

It'll save you a few hundred dollars with a counsellor

Do you WANT to cause WWlll in her marriage? I'll tell you something yaanufs- when a friend of ours approached my hubby to ask him what the he** was going on, I got an answer: a one sided screamfest accusing me of trying to turn his friends against him, and to keep my nose out of his business. It took a lot for his friend not to punch him out, after he found what happened after the "man to man". All good intentions aside, I really don't think it would be a good idea for a total stranger to call him and ask about his marriage problems. I'm pretty sure that after he has gotten over the shock, he won't open up to you, and just take it all out on her. Disaster is what would happen. Jenda doesn't need that anguish.

Jenda~ you are a strong woman...I know you have gone thru a lot over the last couple of years....and I am sorry that you are being treated the way you are...just remember that you are worth more than anything to a lot of people, and I hope that when your husband comes to his senses, he will realize what a prize he has in you. If it helps any.....start a list of things you love about your husband, you still seem to see the good things in him...don't lose focus of them.

I have to agree with lindy on this--you said a lot of good stuff, but the suggestion about your interfereing needs some reconsideration. It would do way more harm than good.

This girl needs PROFESSIONAL MARRIAGE AND PERSONAL COUNCELING.

[Cal]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Feb 10 2005, 10:03 PM

I asked a woman (girl):

"Are you ready to get married?"

  She told me that she was totally ready.  She had all the bride's maid dresses prepared, she was going to wear her hair long and all nice, she had an awesome cake prepared, she was going to get married in a lovely chapel, and that everything was planned out perfectly.

I then asked her:

"But, are you ready to get married?"

Marriage isn't just about that one event that starts out the car-on-the-traintracks-train derailment.  Just a thought.

Right on--its about having a strong sense that you know who you are, what you want, are financially stable and have had enough dating and fun, that you are not going to feel caged in and deprived by being with one person for the rest of your life.

It also means, if you are going to have children, that you can forget yourself and give to your child, while still being careful with the marriage relationship.

A lot of the women on this thread hammered me for saying that men and women need to respect the roles that humans have evolved into over the millenia, and the biological imperatives that we come by genetically.

Men want to be care takers, biologically. They are also attracted to women that look really good--it is biological--nature makes them attracted to a woman that looks like she is going to contribute superior genetics to his offspring. Of course humans have evolved complex ways of interacting, and chosing his mate JUST ON LOOKS can turn out to be a really bad decision. Nevertheless, that is what attracts men, at least initially, and it is what, to some degree keeps them interested, long term.

Now, sometimes we confuse that for dominance and control. It's something we have to UNLEARN. Some guys never unlearn it, most of us take a while. Many of us start out expecting the girl to go along with everything we say and do. Some of us got wise before we got married and have an easier time of it. Others of us, get married too young, and we haven't learned anything about ourselves or women. That is why I say it is stupid to get married young. It is a great recipe for problems later on.

Women want to be taken care of. That's also evolutionary. So they naturally look for a guy who can do that best. It is even more important than his looks. What she needs is to make sure the father of the kids will take care of her and the kids while she is vulnerable, and can not take care of herself (while having kids). To men, being taken careof is usually no priority. But a womans genetics for superior kids is. That is why men go for looks. It is the main indication of a woman's genetic superiority.

But as they get older they start respecting themselves more and want the man to being such a "caretaker". The problem is, if a woman gets married too young, she has not yet developed that sense of independence and self reliance, and she permits the guy to take over, which he is naturally inclined to do. That is why a woman shouldn't get married before say, 25 either. She needs to have a strong sense of herself, and the only way she can have it is if she has education, financial stablitiy, the ability to support herself.

If a man and woman both come into the marriage with some experience, education, self understanding and self esteem, then the marriage is much more likely to get off to a good start, and remain that way.

So, again, I stand by my position that men and women need to understand the other's basic nature, especially if they got married young, because they are going to face some pretty scary changes as the woman finally starts getting some self esteem, and the man starts realizing he can't control her for ever. The problem is making those adjustments DURING marriage is a lot harder than waiting until you have some life experience--that is probably why the divorce rate is so high among people who marry before 25---it's just too hard for a lot of people to weather those changes.

Again, there are exceptions to every rule. But this is definitely the rule.

[pushka]

Cal...If only you had posted your last post first, instead of making this whole...men go for attractive women, women go for men with money...sound so shallow, I bet you wouldn't have had half of the negative responses that you have had up to now.

I applaud your latest bunch of postings on this topic...and DisRuptive's last post too...yes, it is important to wait until you are emotionally and financially secure enough to take on marriage...under normal circumstances. Yes, we have been 'conditioned' to accept the roles that you stated, but as you also state, we can fight against that conditioning in order to become more independent, or interdependent (if that makes any sense!! hope I'm not putting words into your mouth again Cal...I'm just interpreting what I've read :) ). Yes, we do need to maintain our self esteem by continuing to have a life outside of the family, and in order to keep the 'other half' interested...introduces more to talk about to start with!!

So, thanks Cal...

[Amillia]

Five tips for a woman....

1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

Send this to five bright, funny women you know and make their day.

WE ALL NEED TO SMILE !!!

[DisRuptive1]

Oy

1. The man is too busy with his job and his career to work around the house. He's busy working outside the house. If he has to come home to find a woman who's going to make him do the dishes, he might as well stay late at work and at least get something for his work.

4. A man who spoils a woman, deserves no respect from that woman. A man who is giving tends to be one of those "nice" guys. And "nice" guys just don't get the quality of women that the jerky guys get.

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 11 2005, 08:25 PM

Cal...If only you had posted your last post first, instead of making this whole...men go for attractive women, women go for men with money...sound so shallow, I bet you wouldn't have had half of the negative responses that you have had up to now.

I applaud your latest bunch of postings on this topic...and DisRuptive's last post too...yes, it is important to wait until you are emotionally and financially secure enough to take on marriage...under normal circumstances.  Yes, we have been 'conditioned' to accept the roles that you stated, but as you also state, we can fight against that conditioning in order to become more independent, or interdependent (if that makes any sense!! hope I'm not putting words into your mouth again Cal...I'm just interpreting what I've read :) ).  Yes, we do need to maintain our self esteem by continuing to have a life outside of the family, and in order to keep the 'other half' interested...introduces more to talk about to start with!!

So, thanks Cal...

I'm glad that you finally "get" where I am coming from. :)

As to the response regarding the general rule about what attracts men and women--Many women respond the way those on this thread do---it makes them feel insecure to hear that men are so impressed by looks--most women are very insecure about their looks, and to have a man point out this fact of life, infortunately elicits a knee-jerk reaction to it. That doesn't keep it from being the cold hard truth.

I don't bring it up to hurt anyone's feelings; I bring it up because the better women understand men, the better they can make good life decisions when it comes to men. As you noticed, I never said 1) that men SHOULD be so attracted by looks nor 2) did I say that it is the ONLY thing they are attracted to. But women need to understand that if they don't keep themselves up, men are more likely than say, a woman is, to stray--at least mentally. It is just nature---sometimes an ugly truth, but truth, nevertheless. (at least to women, who would prefer that men look at them only for the inside--but that will never be--they will appreciate the inside, yes, but women cannot assume that they can let the outside go without serious side effects.)

Yes, ladies, men shouldn't let themselves go either, but as long as the guy is warm and fuzzy, and brings home the bacon, you aren't really going to care very much. Admit it! :)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:01 AM

Yes, ladies, men shouldn't let themselves go either, but as long as the guy is warm and fuzzy, and brings home the bacon, you aren't really going to care very much. Admit it! :)

You've partially redeemed yourself with some of your later comments, but this one is just plain wrong.

I'd rather be alone supporting myself than with some man who doesn't care what he looks like and has let himself go. I know that not all men are of the body type to look like body builders, just as not all women have the body build to be Playboy bunnies, or SI swimsuit models, but some self-esteem and self-worth are important, and not just for looks.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia@Feb 11 2005, 10:38 PM

Five tips for a woman....

1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

Send this to five bright, funny women you know and make their day.

WE ALL NEED TO SMILE !!!

The last line is funny, and the rest is wishful thinking! I'll be damned if I am going to work my bum of to support some lazy stay at home mom, just to hear her nag me about the dishes and the floor, and complain that I don't pay her enough attention. Men who make good money don't have to put up with that---your requests are an invitation to get yourself "kicked to the curb, honey!".

Disclaimer: Nothing in the aformentioned statement is to be construed to encourge infidelity or abuse. Let it be known that this author totally and fully supports a loving and mutually respectful marriage. Let it also be known that cleaning the toilets for a fat, lazy, stay at home mom, after the guy busts his bum at work all day, is against public policy and should be against the law!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal+Feb 12 2005, 10:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Feb 12 2005, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 11 2005, 10:38 PM

            Five tips for a woman....

1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

          Send this to five bright, funny women you know and make their day.

        WE ALL NEED TO SMILE !!!

The last line is funny, and the rest is wishful thinking! I'll be damned if I am going to work my bum of to support some lazy stay at home mom, just to hear her nag me about the dishes and the floor, and complain that I don't pay her enough attention. Men who make good money don't have to put up with that---your requests are an invitation to get yourself "kicked to the curb, honey!".

Disclaimer: Nothing in the aformentioned statement is to be construed to encourge infidelity or abuse. Let it be known that this author totally and fully supports a loving and mutually respectful marriage. Let it also be known that cleaning the toilets for a fat, lazy, stay at home mom, after the guy busts his bum at work all day, is against public policy and should be against the law!

I guess you don't pay attention to the studies that show that a SAHM does the work of 2 full-time workers. So, you need to buck up and face the facts. A SAHM works a heck of a lot harder than any man, unless, of course, he has two full-time jobs.

And most husbands don't pay their wives to do the work they do. They are stingy with their money, making the "non-working" wife have to beg for it.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 12 2005, 10:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 12 2005, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:01 AM

Yes, ladies, men shouldn't let themselves go either, but as long as the guy is warm and fuzzy, and brings home the bacon, you aren't really going to care very much. Admit it! :)

You've partially redeemed yourself with some of your later comments, but this one is just plain wrong.

I'd rather be alone supporting myself than with some man who doesn't care what he looks like and has let himself go. I know that not all men are of the body type to look like body builders, just as not all women have the body build to be Playboy bunnies, or SI swimsuit models, but some self-esteem and self-worth are important, and not just for looks.

Ok, Jenda, I can respect that you want the guy to keep himself up. That is not my point.

Listen up, babe! :) My point was that, generally, it means more to men, than it does to women. You see LOTS of good looking women with old fat bald guys--who just happen to be LOADED. When was the last time you saw a short, fat, ugly girl with a good looking rich guy! Never, that's when.

Another example" Have you ever noticed the wives and girl friends of professional athletes (who as a group make good money)--most the time they are slim and very good looking women. Sure there are exceptions--but exception they are. You don't see them with over weight homely girls. Why is this? Rich successful guys can pick what they want--and look what they chose! Sure the girls are probably nice inside also, but that doesn't change what I have said.

Again--it is just a generality that proves my point. Men care more about looks, women care more about money. There are lots of exceptions, and I'm not saying that it is the way it should be, or that men don't look for MORE than looks--it is just a HIGHER priority to them than to women.

Why do you find that so hard to accept? Why is that so difficult? Is it hurtful to hear? Not meant to be. No more hurtful to women, than the fact that an average looking guy with no money and no evidence that he is going to make any is going to get a really hot looking girl who knows what she's got going for herself. I don't hear the guys on this thread complaining about how hurtful or ridiculous that is--why? Because guys know it is the truth--why do you think we bust our butts to get an education and make some money---One is to have the peace of mind to be able to survive, and second is to be able to attract good looking women, who also happen to have some brains and a nice personality. The more you bring to the table, the better your bargaining position--it generally works that way in life.

Again, it is not that looks isn't important to women, it is just not AS important to them as it is to men.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:19 AM

Ok, Jenda, I can respect that you want the guy to keep himself up. That is not my point.

Listen up, babe! :) My point was that, generally, it means more to men, than it does to women. You see LOTS of good looking women with old fat bald guys--who just happen to be LOADED. When was the last time you saw a short, fat, ugly girl with a good looking rich guy! Never, that's when.

Another example" Have you ever noticed the wives and girl friends of professional athletes (who as a group make good money)--most the time they are slim and very good looking women. Sure there are exceptions--but exception they are. You don't see them with over weight homely girls. Why is this? Rich successful guys can pick what they want--and look what they chose! Sure the girls are probably nice inside also, but that doesn't change what I have said.

Again--it is just a generality that proves my point. Men care more about looks, women care more about money. There are lots of exceptions, and I'm not saying that it is the way it should be, or that men don't look for MORE than looks--it is just a HIGHER priority to them than to women.

Why do you find that so hard to accept? Why is that so difficult? Is it hurtful to hear? Not meant to be. No more hurtful to women, than the fact that an average looking guy with no money and no evidence that he is going to make any is going to get a really hot looking girl who knows what she's got going for herself.

I disagree because it is a stereotype. It does nothing but lump all women (or all men) together under one "generalization" that might really only be true for a small percentage of the population.

Cal, I came from a very industrial-minded community. Blue-collar work was the best anyone from that area could hope for. It was everyone's dream to work at the steel mill. I know lots of people from that mindset.

I left that place and went to college and worked for 15 years with people who have a completely different mindset. They were of upper middle-class to nouveau riche, to old money. I know lots of people from that mindset, also.

I have to say, that in all my years, across all barriers of income, education, etc., I met only one person who fits your female description. I don't think your generalization is a good one. For it to be good, it would have to fit a bell-shaped curve, and it doesn't.

I can't speak for the male side of it, but stereotypically, it seems right on.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Feb 12 2005, 09:20 AM

And "nice" guys just don't get the quality of women that the jerky guys get.

That is absolutely false. My husband rarely lifts a finger to help around the house (except for the garage) and that's great with me because he does work very long hours. BUT, there is not a nicer guy on this (or any other) planet, and I can humbly say that I am a VERY quality woman.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 12 2005, 10:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 12 2005, 10:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:08 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 11 2005, 10:38 PM

            Five tips for a woman....

1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

           Send this to five bright, funny women you know and make their day.

         WE ALL NEED TO SMILE !!!

The last line is funny, and the rest is wishful thinking! I'll be damned if I am going to work my bum of to support some lazy stay at home mom, just to hear her nag me about the dishes and the floor, and complain that I don't pay her enough attention. Men who make good money don't have to put up with that---your requests are an invitation to get yourself "kicked to the curb, honey!".

Disclaimer: Nothing in the aformentioned statement is to be construed to encourge infidelity or abuse. Let it be known that this author totally and fully supports a loving and mutually respectful marriage. Let it also be known that cleaning the toilets for a fat, lazy, stay at home mom, after the guy busts his bum at work all day, is against public policy and should be against the law!

I guess you don't pay attention to the studies that show that a SAHM does the work of 2 full-time workers. So, you need to buck up and face the facts. A SAHM works a heck of a lot harder than any man, unless, of course, he has two full-time jobs.

And most husbands don't pay their wives to do the work they do. They are stingy with their money, making the "non-working" wife have to beg for it.

That is a patent, on its face, falsehood. You aren't doing your economic math, honey!

Here are the facts: Lets say that the guy makes $100,000 a year plus the value of his work in the yard, say 4 hrs per week.

Your SAHM works 12 hrs per day doing domestic work and day care. (lets say 2 kids)

Cost of her 12 hrs domestic chores @ 10.00 per hour = 120.00 per day X 6 days (she takes one day off to spend nagging her husband) X 52 weeks per year = $37,440.

Value of the day care: (since she has to contribute 1/2 by virtue of being one of the parents we divide her contribution in half) So, 1 kid X 8 hours( he's home spending time with the kids, so she doesn't really have them 24 hours) X say $12.00 per hour X 5 days per week X 50 weeks per year ( they go to disneyland for 2 weeks a year) = $24,000 per year

TOTAL VALUE OF HER WORK = $37,400 PLUS $24,000 = $61,400 per year.

Now, subtract the cost to feed, cloth and take care of HER.

Well, if she paid rent, that would be, say, $1,000 a month ($1500 in California)

which is $12,000 per year. PLus food, clothing and 10 trips to target per week, another say, $10,000.

TOTAL COST OF SUPPORTING HER = $22,000 per year.

HER TOTAL CONTRIBUTION: VALUE OF HER WORK MINUS COST TO SUPPORT HER =

$61,400 MINUS $22,000 = $39,400

So--------she is short by $60,600

Under this scenario, which is pretty reasonable for a guy with a good job, and the SAHM, he is making close to 2/3 the economic contribution. aND I DIDN'T EVEN INCLUDE THE VALUE OF HIS YARDWORK

WHY SHOULD HE COME HOME AND CLEAN TOILETS TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:47 AM

Cost of her 12 hrs domestic chores @ 10.00 per hour =

I don't know a maid who works for less than $15.00/hr. The average maid service here is $20.00/hr. That would make their contributions closer to equal. Also, you need to combine their financial contributions and subtract the cost of supporting both of them. In my case, my husband is a much bigger spender than I am.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 12 2005, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 12 2005, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:47 AM

Cost of her 12 hrs domestic chores @ 10.00 per hour =

I don't know a maid who works for less than $15.00/hr. The average maid service here is $20.00/hr. That would make their contributions closer to equal. Also, you need to combine their financial contributions and subtract the cost of supporting both of them. In my case, my husband is a much bigger spender than I am.

Still comes up short. And why the cost of supporting him--HE is supporting him. And what financial contribution has she made, other than what I have said. Most of the time, nothing--unless she works outside the home, and that is NOT what we are talking about--we are talking about a stay at home mom, remember. :)

And, judging by the disparity in financial contribution, your husband SHOULD be a bigger spender than you are. ( I don't know your situation so I can't comment, nor would I be so rude as to presume to know your situation)

Even if the disparity is lesser in some cases, it is also much greater in others. What if the guy makes say 2 or 3 hundred thousand? Should he still clean toilets? How much does he have to make to get out of cleaning toilets? And if she doesn't contribute as much as he does, why shouldn't she do it instead of him?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 12 2005, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 12 2005, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2005, 10:47 AM

Cost of her 12 hrs domestic chores @ 10.00 per hour =

I don't know a maid who works for less than $15.00/hr. The average maid service here is $20.00/hr. That would make their contributions closer to equal. Also, you need to combine their financial contributions and subtract the cost of supporting both of them. In my case, my husband is a much bigger spender than I am.

And a babysitter makes $6.00/hr., plus vacations. Don't forget that. So wer are up to $21.00/hr.

[Jenda]

Cal, if a SAHM worked outside the home, they would have to pay a babysitter and a maid. That is her financial contribution.