Divorce...

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 14 2005, 07:26 PM

Thanks Jenda...I'm not sure...I was certain that it was a man who said that he and Cal had more knowledge about these issues of divorce etc. because of the number of marriages that they had had...

I hope you don't think that I'm judging you because you spoke about 3 marriages...I believed that the male poster was believing that he and Cal were a better authority on the subject because of their experiences...

Pushka,

I do like Disruptive1. He just has a lot of growing up to do. He could actually be the poster who was rallying with Cal on this topic, but I don't think he has ever been married.

[pushka]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 28 2005, 08:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 28 2005, 08:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Jan 28 2005, 01:00 AM

How much does the guy in the picture make?

Here's a good reason why divorces happen:

Before marriage:After marriage:

Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times.  So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.

But we haven't seen her face either.

Let me also get clear on this subject. I'm not saying that men should only marry for superficial reasons (looks), but that is what attracts men in the first place, and guys who are better off tend to attract the better looking girls---it isn't necessarily what an ideal society needs, it's just how the real world is--it's not utopia out there.

At last I've found it...the little bit of writing at the bottom of the 2nd set of pics...the before and after marriage pix...DisRuptive1 says:

'Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times. So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.'

So is he referring to himself, at only 21????? Must have been very short marriages or he must have married very young to have got 4 in in that time!!!

[pushka]

Sorry Strawberry...I didn't mean to be too harsh about DisRuptive1, and I'm not saying that I don't like him or anything...I just felt that it was appropriate to point out that it wasn't only Cal who had been posting things that we females felt was a little 'off'...:)

Friends DisRuptive? please... :)

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by pushka+Feb 14 2005, 07:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pushka @ Feb 14 2005, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Jan 28 2005, 08:17 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Jan 28 2005, 01:00 AM

How much does the guy in the picture make?

Here's a good reason why divorces happen:

Before marriage:After marriage:

Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times.  So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.

But we haven't seen her face either.

Let me also get clear on this subject. I'm not saying that men should only marry for superficial reasons (looks), but that is what attracts men in the first place, and guys who are better off tend to attract the better looking girls---it isn't necessarily what an ideal society needs, it's just how the real world is--it's not utopia out there.

At last I've found it...the little bit of writing at the bottom of the 2nd set of pics...the before and after marriage pix...DisRuptive1 says:

'Oh and btw, I speak from the experience of a man who has been married and divorced 4 times. So me and Cal should be able to cover all the bases, unsuccessful marriages and a successful marriage.'

So is he referring to himself, at only 21????? Must have been very short marriages or he must have married very young to have got 4 in in that time!!!

I think that we might have to ask disruptive about thoses 4 marriages then.

So tell us Disruptive1, "Have you been married before?"

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Feb 14 2005, 07:06 PM

So is he referring to himself, at only 21????? Must have been very short marriages or he must have married very young to have got 4 in in that time!!!

I think that we might have to ask disruptive about thoses 4 marriages then.

So tell us Disruptive1, "Have you been married before?"

I remember being confused by his post also. I think I concluded that he had been quoting a friend or aquaintance of his who had been married four times. I was also under the impression that he'd never been married.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 14 2005, 05:19 PM

Eeeekk...now I feel so stupid...I can't find the quote to which I was referring about the 2 men debating marriage on this forum...could it have been a comment made on a similar thread? I am sorry...I'm sure the man said that he had plenty of experience of marriage as he had been married 4 times...

I remember a poster saying they had plenty of experience because of being married 4 times. I wonder who it was?

[pushka]

We've established that it was disruptive1...he posted the words underneath the pix he posted...however there is some argument that he might have been referring to someone he knew who had been married 4 times, rather than to himself..we are waiting to see if he gets back to us on this one :)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 15 2005, 08:27 AM

We've established that it was disruptive1...he posted the words underneath the pix he posted...however there is some argument that he might have been referring to someone he knew who had been married 4 times, rather than to himself..we are waiting to see if he gets back to us on this one :)

ah,

Thanks Pushka! I hate it when I feel like I don't know whether I am coming or going! LOL

[Guest curvette]

Oh, I meant to ask: Is that second picture (in the boxing ring) really Tonya Harding? I guess I haven't seen her since she quit skating.

[Jenda]

Yeah, I guess she found her true calling when she hired her ex to beat up on the competition. So much so that she decided to take it up herself.

[Guest curvette]

From the beautiful, graceful sport of iceskating to female boxing. I just don't get it...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 12 2005, 11:36 AM

Cal, if a SAHM worked outside the home, they would have to pay a babysitter and a maid. That is her financial contribution.

Sorry for answering this one so late. If you are a SAHM then by definition you don't work anywhere but at home--so where is this income coming from. And you have gone outside the conditions we started with. I was addressing the situation of a SAHM, not someone working (whether at home or otherwise) and bringing in income.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 12 2005, 11:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 12 2005, 11:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Feb 12 2005, 11:01 AM

Even if the disparity is lesser in some cases, it is also much greater in others. What if the guy makes say 2 or 3 hundred thousand? Should he still clean toilets? How much does he have to make to get out of cleaning toilets? And if she doesn't contribute as much as he does, why shouldn't she do it instead of him?

I don't think the person who works long hours outside the home should have to come home and scrub toilets. (unless they get some kind of perverse pleasure from doing so.) But just because a homemaker doesn't bring home a paycheck, there is still enormous value in what he/she does. If I died, it would cost my husband a fortune to hire someone to do all of the things that I normally do. It's a team effort. You make it sound like it's some kind of a war. Spouses should be on the same side. There is also a lot of value for my husband to have a wife who takes good care of herself physically. (I'm putting myself out of a limb here, I know, but I'll say it anyway.) He's a very public person and for whatever reason, it makes him look better in the eyes of his peers if he has a wife who appears attractive in public. I'm not only talking about physical attractiveness. A spouse who can communicate well and make others feel comfortable can be an enormous asset to a businessperson who's business demands a lot of social interaction.

You are off on a tangent, Curvy. I don't disagree that a SAHM contributes plenty. My point is that she shouldn't complain about doing it, nor should she expect a husband, who is making twice what she can possibly contribute (doing housework etc), to mop floors and clean toilets. It's a matter of fairness and equity. If women don't want to be expected to do all the house work, then get a job and pay for a cleaning lady and day care--but don't expect that there are very many men who are going to take kindly to the voice of complaints about how they never sweep the floor, when the guy is out there making twice what she is worth economically.

Disclaimer: I seem to have to make these disclaimers because I continue to get misinterpreted by the lovely ladies out there: Women are to be appreciated for what they do!!!! (So are men, right?)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Feb 12 2005, 12:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Feb 12 2005, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Feb 12 2005, 11:08 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 11 2005, 10:38 PM

            Five tips for a woman....

1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

           Send this to five bright, funny women you know and make their day.

         WE ALL NEED TO SMILE !!!

The last line is funny, and the rest is wishful thinking! I'll be damned if I am going to work my bum of to support some lazy stay at home mom, just to hear her nag me about the dishes and the floor, and complain that I don't pay her enough attention. Men who make good money don't have to put up with that---your requests are an invitation to get yourself "kicked to the curb, honey!".

Disclaimer: Nothing in the aformentioned statement is to be construed to encourge infidelity or abuse. Let it be known that this author totally and fully supports a loving and mutually respectful marriage. Let it also be known that cleaning the toilets for a fat, lazy, stay at home mom, after the guy busts his bum at work all day, is against public policy and should be against the law!

Why is it that all men assume the woman is staying home eating bon bons while watching soaps??? I work really hard! I do all the books, bills, housework, kids, chauffering, homework with kids, meal planning, shopping, buying of presents, mailing of packages, hair cuts, and even remodeling, repairs, yard work, etc.

Why should I work around the clock while my husband gets off at 5 and sits in front of the table expecting dinner and later hours infront of the tv?

Why shouldn't I expect and get a little help around the house at least on week-ends?

Because he has spent his day supporting YOU that's why! :)

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 12 2005, 01:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 12 2005, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 12 2005, 12:44 PM

Why should I work around the clock while my husband gets off at 5 and sits in front of the table expecting dinner and later hours infront of the tv?

Why shouldn't I expect and get a little help around the house at least on week-ends?      

Well, according to Cal's argument, it's because what you (and I) do at home doesn't have enough monetary value. I guess if a man only makes 40,000.00 a year, then he might qualify to have to help around the house a little. The whole "titt for tatt" mindset (for lack of a better term--maybe pushka has one) seems a little silly and immature. I never doubt my value to my husband and my family. Having a good, loving spouse and well adjusted children is immensely valuable to most people. Just because someone's job doesn't directly generate income is no reason to dismiss it as unimportant or of inferior value. That comment about stay at home moms being fat and lazy is astonishing to me.

Curvy,

I didn't say YOU were fat and lazy AND I didn't say the work SAHM's do isn't worth something. I has lots of value--just not much economic value as compared with what many men earn. Try to limit me to what I said, and not extend to me what I have NOT said.

Many of your are reading things into my comments that are simply not there. And yes, women should recognize that if they want to SAH and be supported, they shouldn't be complaining about the house work, any more than their husband should be complaining to his boss about his long hours.

Should a man appreciate what his wife does at home? Answer: Yes, the same way she appreciates what he does to support the family. Does he ask her to come to work with him and do his job for him? They why should she expect him to do HER job for her? (I'm not talking about spending time with the kids--that is a separate issue.)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Amillia+Feb 12 2005, 12:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Amillia @ Feb 12 2005, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Feb 12 2005, 11:08 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Feb 11 2005, 10:38 PM

            Five tips for a woman....

1. It is important that a man helps you around the house and has a job.

2. It is important that a man makes you laugh.

3. It is important to find a man you can count on and doesn't lie to you.

4. It is important that a man loves you and spoils you

5. It is important that these four men don't know each other.

           Send this to five bright, funny women you know and make their day.

         WE ALL NEED TO SMILE !!!

The last line is funny, and the rest is wishful thinking! I'll be damned if I am going to work my bum of to support some lazy stay at home mom, just to hear her nag me about the dishes and the floor, and complain that I don't pay her enough attention. Men who make good money don't have to put up with that---your requests are an invitation to get yourself "kicked to the curb, honey!".

Disclaimer: Nothing in the aformentioned statement is to be construed to encourge infidelity or abuse. Let it be known that this author totally and fully supports a loving and mutually respectful marriage. Let it also be known that cleaning the toilets for a fat, lazy, stay at home mom, after the guy busts his bum at work all day, is against public policy and should be against the law!

Why is it that all men assume the woman is staying home eating bon bons while watching soaps??? I work really hard! I do all the books, bills, housework, kids, chauffering, homework with kids, meal planning, shopping, buying of presents, mailing of packages, hair cuts, and even remodeling, repairs, yard work, etc.

Why should I work around the clock while my husband gets off at 5 and sits in front of the table expecting dinner and later hours infront of the tv?

Why shouldn't I expect and get a little help around the house at least on week-ends?

Weekends? Ok, the guy can mow the lawn, trim the trees, pull the weeks, edge the grass---but don't think we are going to fall for the trick of you sitting on your lazy bum all week, and then telling us how you have all this stuff for us to do, in the house on the week end. We do yards--that's it.

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 12 2005, 02:55 PM

Curvette, Jenda and Amillia...once again I applaud YOU on your comments this time!!

Yes, I appreciate the scenario that Cal is trying to set up...but that is just, as you said, 'titt for tatt' plain money business...there doesn't seem to be any room for love in that set up!!

Also, is the SAHW entitled to holidays and holiday pay? Is she entitled to sickness benefits/days off when she is unwell, or will she have to deduct that amount from the allowance her husband allows her to 'spend on herself='spend on herself and the children', in order to pay the husband for taking over the chores in her absence?

Amillia, you sound as if you are doing a great job at your house...I notice that Cal omitted to mention teaching costs when you spend hours teaching your children at home during those essential early years, and all that extra tutoring during the evenings...homework etc...or does the husband get to share at least THAT task? In fact, what does the husband do for his children????

As for the toilet cleaning...well, as you've already said, if it's generally kept clean, then all the women are asking of the gents is PLEASE AIM STRAIGHT, AND MOP UP ANY MESSES YOU MAKE!!! ITS COURTESY....LOL

Give me a freaking break!

What's love got to do with it? Why do women think that if a guy expects the SAMH do do the bulk of the house work that somehow he doesn't LLLLOOOOOOVVVVVEEEE her? What a load of female, mushy bologna!

We're not talking about LOVE, were talking about reasonable expectations, that have nothing to do with LOVE. And I already, I think several times, that a father should spend time with the kids--loads of time, if he can manage to find time between toilet cleaning!

[Cal]

Originally posted by estump@Feb 12 2005, 04:46 PM

How many times has Dr. Phil said:

Men DON'T GET IT!

When will they start to believe he is right?

Sounds to me like the women on this thread are having a little trouble getting it too.

Why do women think they are the only ones that deserve to be "got"?

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 12 2005, 08:55 PM

Yeah...but what price do you put on love and loyalty? That isn't a fairytale surely?

Love and loyalty, I'll pay for..........nagging, complaining, fat, and lazy, I can do without.

[Cal]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 13 2005, 11:59 AM

When was the last time you saw a short, fat, ugly girl with a good looking rich guy! Never, that's when.

I can't speak for others, and not to start a war or anything....but I can remember good looking rich guy with, (even married to) a woman most men wouldn't look twice at. But I, in all honesty, can't remember ever seeing a good looking rich woman with a short, fat, ugly guy. I would venture a guess that there are, couples like that, out there that don't have their faces plastered in the newspapers, or flashing on the tv. Happy,compatable, mutt and jeff couples that don't give a flying rat's butt who notices them or not.

But you have seen tons of old ugly rich guys with young, beautiful girls--- a lot more than old ugly ladies with young poor guys. And what you REALLY don't see much of is poor ugly guys with hot young girls.

[Cal]

Originally posted by lindy9556+Feb 13 2005, 12:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lindy9556 @ Feb 13 2005, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--DisRuptive1@Feb 13 2005, 12:15 PM

All exceptions.  For ugly woman with a rich guy you show me, I can show you 100 others where the woman is attractive.

Never, that's when.

That wasn't the point laddie.....you said NEVER. I couldn't stand silent and let that one by.

OK, I'll defer to Disupts statement---hardly ever.

[Cal]

Originally posted by TannersDad@Feb 14 2005, 09:29 AM

You people are all crazy!!!

Most women do not get a windfall on divorce. Alimony (they call it maintenance now) is pretty much a thing of the past. On the rare occasion that they do get it, the only get it for a limited period of time, usually no more than two years to "rehabilitate" them.

The divorce rate is 43% in the United States. Most marriages are still working.

The divorce rate for LDS marriages is really low so whatever counsel people are getting before/during seems to be working.

The aspect of sex in a marriage is way overblown here. It only becomes an issue when some one is being selfish. In other words the issue isn't the sex it is the selfishness of the partner. This is the same thing about money, child care, etc... Someone is being selfish. When both parties in a marriage are only concern with the well being of their partner then the marriage will work.

Cal is up in the night. After reading his stuff was anybody shocked that he went through a divorce?

I'm glad you have all the answers. Too bad they don't address the question. I don't recall asking or commenting much on what women get when they get divorced.

Second, the divorce rate varies from state to state--in many states it is over 50%. As to you comment on why I got divorced, you know nothing about me or about the details of my marriage. Shows how mindless you are--commenting on things you know nothing about.

Third, you are simply assuming, as many of the women on this thread have, that I am somehow against spouses treating eachother with the uttmost of respect and consideration. You completely misinterpret my comments, reading in things that suit your fears and prejudices.

As to the divorce rate in the LDS church, it is about 33%, about the same as the divorce rate of couples from other faiths that attend church regularly.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Feb 14 2005, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Feb 14 2005, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TannersDad@Feb 14 2005, 10:29 AM

You people are all crazy!!!

Most women do not get a windfall on divorce.  Alimony (they call it maintenance now)  is pretty much a thing of the past.  On the rare occasion that they do get it, the only get it for a limited period of time, usually no more than two years to "rehabilitate" them. 

The divorce rate is 43% in the United States.  Most marriages are still working. 

The divorce rate for LDS marriages is really low so whatever counsel people are getting before/during seems to be working.

The aspect of sex in a marriage is way overblown here.  It only becomes an issue when some one is being selfish.  In other words the issue isn't the sex it is the selfishness of the partner.  This is the same thing about money, child care, etc...  Someone is being selfish.  When both parties in a marriage are only concern with the well being of their partner then the marriage will work. 

Cal is up in the night.  After reading his stuff was anybody shocked that he went through a divorce?

Yes, you are right. I said them same thing about being selfish awhile back. :)

Selfish? The idea that marriage can only survive if people are totally selfless is pure rubbish. There is no such thing as selflessness, unless you are mentally and emotionally ill. Human beings do not do anything that is not selfish--even if it is the most altruistic, kindly and humane action one can imagine--we ONLY do things that either make us feel good now, or we think will benefit us in the future--the issue is not selfish vs selfless, it is selfish that hurts others or selfish that benefits others.

For example, why does a woman SAH and take care of the kids etc. Because she is being selfless--nonsense--it is because she knows 1) if she doesn't her husband will not be please and perhaps leave her and 2) feels that she is pleasing God, her parents and she will get praise from her friends, family etc which will make her feel better (wanting to feel good is the prime motivator of human behavior, and it is, yes, selfish--not bad, but selfish)

[Jenda]

Cal, you seem to place a lot of respect on the $ sign. If someone makes $20/hr., and their spouse makes $75/hr., then obviously the one who makes $20/hr. is not pulling their weight. Their contribution is not worth as much as the one who makes more. Your point is not well taken. Responsibility should be split evenly. That is what marriage is all about, and, most likely, what the divorce is all about, too. It happens when one person decides that their contribution is better than the other persons. Instead of respecting the other person, they feel that they are the ones who need to be "honored". It is a disgusting attitude. You can have your discussion. I am sick of it.

[Cal]

Originally posted by pushka@Feb 14 2005, 06:40 PM

Sorry Strawberry...I didn't mean to be too harsh about DisRuptive1, and I'm not saying that I don't like him or anything...I just felt that it was appropriate to point out that it wasn't only Cal who had been posting things that we females felt was a little 'off'...:)

Friends DisRuptive? please... :)

I'm not surprised that some of the females here think what I have said is a little off. I've know only a few females that will even admit that there are any inherent differenced between males and females at all (other than the obvious ones).

The reason they think I am 'off' is because they really don't understand men. Women are in total denial about how men are, and men, have a pretty good idea what most women are about--mainly because women are real good about revealing it in the form of nagging, complaining and whining. Men tend to keep their mouths shut about their feelings--so women really don't have a clue.

For example, I dare you women to come up with a guy on this message board that will deny that the first thing he notices about a woman is what she looks like. You don't like to admit it but that is the truth about men--they are totally visual, always have been, always will be.

It doesn't mean that they are superficial. That is just a label women put on men because they wish they didnt' have to compete based on their looks, because they are so convinced about how great they are on the inside---sorry ladies, a lot of you are not even that great on the inside--certainly no better than men in that department. We just want different things than you do.