Need A Little Help

[Jason]

I know why you left Ex. Because someone very close to you didn't keep the law of chastity. It boiles down to a very simple principle every time.

No, you said:

My one question to you... What commandment are you unable to obey? People go inactive or just leave because they are unable to keep the law of chastity, WofW, etc....which is it for you? 

Now you're changing your mind and saying that the sins of someone else could cause one to leave? Which is it then?

As for me, you're wrong. My dad could have screwed every woman in town, and it would not have affected my views of Mormonism. He was disfellowshiped for 3 years because of his actions. The Church knew, and the church disciplined.

If you want to be specific on a single issue that finally pushed me out, it was when I was working on the blacks and the priesthood revelation/doctrine/policy/opinion/theory/false doctrine.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 13 2005, 12:36 AM

I don't find it narrow-minded at all and definitely not shallow. It is a fact ~

Based on what studies done by which universities or organizations do you base your assumption that leaving Mormonism is the result of one's inability to pay 10% of income, keep one's horse in the barn, or avoid intoxicating beverages?

BASED ON SIN~ any kind

[Amillia]

Originally posted by yaanufs+Apr 13 2005, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yaanufs @ Apr 13 2005, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Apr 13 2005, 02:56 AM

It boiles down to a very simple principle every time. 

Lets not nuke this people. K.I.S.S.

Could it be as simple as they didn't think the church was true anymore?

Or is that a simple fact that is too simple to consider?

Simple minded ~ or blinded simple.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 13 2005, 09:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 13 2005, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Apr 12 2005, 08:48 PM

My one question to you... What commandment are you unable to obey?  People go inactive or just leave because they are unable to keep the law of chastity, WofW, etc....which is it for you?   What is the root of "I don't know if the church is true." bull you are trying to lay down?

Typical response by someone who is threatened by someone else's doubts. Here's where that simple thing called "free agency" comes into effect. CG has the right to choose what he believes and why. If for whatever reason, especially doubt in LDS doctrine and history, he chooses to change his mind and make a reasonable choice by not believing anymore - who are you to say he can't make that choice. Why would you Setheus be so threatened by someone else's loss of testimony?

M.

No one's threatened on the Lord's side. Are you feeling threatened? Cause your response is typical if ever there was one. Assuming one is threatened when speaking the truth that hurts the sinners. :)

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 13 2005, 10:58 AM

I know why you left Ex. Because someone very close to you didn't keep the law of chastity. It boiles down to a very simple principle every time.

No, you said:

My one question to you... What commandment are you unable to obey? People go inactive or just leave because they are unable to keep the law of chastity, WofW, etc....which is it for you? 

Now you're changing your mind and saying that the sins of someone else could cause one to leave? Which is it then?

As for me, you're wrong. My dad could have screwed every woman in town, and it would not have affected my views of Mormonism. He was disfellowshiped for 3 years because of his actions. The Church knew, and the church disciplined.

If you want to be specific on a single issue that finally pushed me out, it was when I was working on the blacks and the priesthood revelation/doctrine/policy/opinion/theory/false doctrine.

It can be both.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by pushka@Apr 12 2005, 03:29 PM

I agree with Maureen and Ex Mormon Jason...

How would the LDS people like it if another religion came along and baptised their dead relatives...or themselves...into their religion by proxy because the religion believed it was the 'one true' church of Christ? Presumably when these Jewish, or non-jewish people died they had not accepted the LDS religion, therefore they had no desire to be baptised into it? If you feel that the Jewish people think there must be 'something to' this baptism by proxy by objecting to it, how would you feel if the tables were turned and you were being baptised by proxy into another religion after your death?

Frankly, I wouldn't give a dang. If the proxy-baptizing religion were not true, it would have no effect on me. If it were, then I'd be grateful they did the work.

As for whether I would have any concern, while living, that someone might proxy-baptize me after I'm dead -- again, why should I care? It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, as Thomas Jefferson put it.

The closest legal parallel I can think of to this situation is the "appropriation of likeness" branch of privacy law, which is used by celebrities to keep people from exploiting their (famous) personae without compensating them. After they're dead, the heirs of the celebrities can retain some of the rights to use their images commercially, but those rights are essentially there to protect the heirs, not the deceased himself. And those rights don't last forever. Nobody minds when an actor dressed as Abraham Lincoln is used in a used-car commercial. Why should I care if my name gets recited in some obscure religious ceremony sometime in the future?

Presumably when these Jewish, or non-jewish people died they had not accepted the LDS religion, therefore they had no desire to be baptised into it?

Presumably, we have a clearer understanding of things in the eternities than we do on the earth. Who's to say that a person who stated a desire, while living, not to be baptized, might not change his mind in the eternities?

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 13 2005, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 13 2005, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Setheus@Apr 12 2005, 08:48 PM

My one question to you... What commandment are you unable to obey?  People go inactive or just leave because they are unable to keep the law of chastity, WofW, etc....which is it for you?  What is the root of "I don't know if the church is true." bull you are trying to lay down?

Typical response by someone who is threatened by someone else's doubts. Here's where that simple thing called "free agency" comes into effect. CG has the right to choose what he believes and why. If for whatever reason, especially doubt in LDS doctrine and history, he chooses to change his mind and make a reasonable choice by not believing anymore - who are you to say he can't make that choice. Why would you Setheus be so threatened by someone else's loss of testimony?

M.

I second that. Few things irritate me as much as people who insist on presuming the reasons for why a person believes as he does.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 13 2005, 10:24 AM

No one's threatened on the Lord's side. Are you feeling threatened? Cause your response is typical if ever there was one....

You're just copying what I said Amillia; you need to be more original.

Assuming one is threatened when speaking the truth that hurts the sinners.

Now either you are saying that you are threatened when someone speaks the truth because you are a sinner or, you are being self-righteous and excluding yourself from being a sinner while judging everyone else - which is it Amillia?

M.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Apr 13 2005, 11:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Apr 13 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--pushka@Apr 12 2005, 03:29 PM

I agree with Maureen and Ex Mormon Jason...

How would the LDS people like it if another religion came along and baptised their dead relatives...or themselves...into their religion by proxy because the religion believed it was the 'one true' church of Christ?  Presumably when these Jewish, or non-jewish people died they had not accepted the LDS religion, therefore they had no desire to be baptised into it?  If you feel that the Jewish people think there must be 'something to' this baptism by proxy by objecting to it, how would you feel if the tables were turned and you were being baptised by proxy into another religion after your death?

Frankly, I wouldn't give a dang. If the proxy-baptizing religion were not true, it would have no effect on me. If it were, then I'd be grateful they did the work.

As for whether I would have any concern, while living, that someone might proxy-baptize me after I'm dead -- again, why should I care? It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, as Thomas Jefferson put it.

The closest legal parallel I can think of to this situation is the "appropriation of likeness" branch of privacy law, which is used by celebrities to keep people from exploiting their (famous) personae without compensating them. After they're dead, the heirs of the celebrities can retain some of the rights to use their images commercially, but those rights are essentially there to protect the heirs, not the deceased himself. And those rights don't last forever. Nobody minds when an actor dressed as Abraham Lincoln is used in a used-car commercial. Why should I care if my name gets recited in some obscure religious ceremony sometime in the future?

Presumably when these Jewish, or non-jewish people died they had not accepted the LDS religion, therefore they had no desire to be baptised into it?

Presumably, we have a clearer understanding of things in the eternities than we do on the earth. Who's to say that a person who stated a desire, while living, not to be baptized, might not change his mind in the eternities?

I agree, I don't care what they do with my name after I am dead. The Jews could do all sorts of rituals with my name and if it wasn't true or valid, what's the problem ! LOL

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Maureen+Apr 13 2005, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Apr 13 2005, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 13 2005, 10:24 AM

No one's threatened on the Lord's side. Are you feeling threatened? Cause your response is typical if ever there was one....

You're just copying what I said Amillia; you need to be more original.

Assuming one is threatened when speaking the truth that hurts the sinners.

Now either you are saying that you are threatened when someone speaks the truth because you are a sinner or, you are being self-righteous and excluding yourself from being a sinner while judging everyone else - which is it Amillia?

M.

YOu want me to make up stuff and say you said it? Why would it offend you to have your words put back in your face if they were so wonderful to start with???

I am now having you put words in my mouth ! I would rather you just put my words back in their right order!

[Jason]

Amillia,

I said:

Based on what studies done by which universities or organizations do you base your assumption that leaving Mormonism is the result of one's inability to pay 10% of income, keep one's horse in the barn, or avoid intoxicating beverages? 

You replied:

BASED ON SIN~ any kind

Now while that type of answer might work on a 10 year old sunday school class, it's hardly convincing to anyone who's educated beyond the 8th grade.

I can only assume that you don't have anything to back up your statement. So a simple retraction will do.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 13 2005, 12:36 PM

Amillia,

I said:

Based on what studies done by which universities or organizations do you base your assumption that leaving Mormonism is the result of one's inability to pay 10% of income, keep one's horse in the barn, or avoid intoxicating beverages? 

You replied:

BASED ON SIN~ any kind

Now while that type of answer might work on a 10 year old sunday school class, it's hardly convincing to anyone who's educated beyond the 8th grade.

I can only assume that you don't have anything to back up your statement. So a simple retraction will do.

There is a lot of talk going on here but very little is being said. Perhaps this is why the site is LDSTalk?

I do not attempt to "figure out why someone left the church" And I could care less why they leave. I just find it sad that when someone joins the church its all about "I' feel the spirit, its the right thing to do, its the true church, etc etc" BUT when it comes time to leave the church it is ALWAYS "So and so were not nice to me, I was "pressured" to be baptized, I didnt know for sure that the church was true etc etc"> Well, if you didn't ask Heavenly Father if the church was true or not and now you feel like leaving....GO! Have a great life. Take your free agency and run with it.

Just remember, when someone leaves they are ALWAYS welcome back.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Seth,

Well, if you didn't ask Heavenly Father if the church was true or not and now you feel like leaving....GO!

Why do you presume that someone who leaves just hasn't asked that question? There are people in the Church who have asked, and haven't gotten an answer.

[pushka]

John Doe, Proudduck and Amillia...yes I see your points regarding not caring about what another religion cares to do in your name after you have died, if it turns out that the church doing the deed is the 'one true one' then yes, I agree that they have done a great favour to mankind.

Just one question though...sorry if it sounds silly...when we are dead, will there be LDS missionaries teaching us the Gospel according to the LDS church? for those who have not been baptised by proxy? If so, surely they could try to convert the deceased instead of us taking the time to do it on their behalf now?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Amillia@Apr 13 2005, 12:30 PM

YOu want me to make up stuff and say you said it? Why would it offend you to have your words put back in your face if they were so wonderful to start with???

I am now having you put words in my mouth ! I would rather you just put my words back in their right order!

Amillia, is this your way to avoid answering the question?

You said:

Assuming one is threatened when speaking the truth that hurts the sinners.

Then I asked you to clarify what you meant, with the 2 choices you were given below:

Now either you are saying that you are threatened when someone speaks the truth because you are a sinner or, you are being self-righteous and excluding yourself from being a sinner while judging everyone else - which is it Amillia?

How hard is that?

M.

Editing to add: If you do not wish to clarify what you meant by your statement, that's fine too Amillia.

[Jason]

There is a lot of talk going on here but very little is being said. Perhaps this is why the site is LDSTalk?

Your apologies and retraction are accepted and appreciated.

I just find it sad that when someone joins the church its all about "I' feel the spirit, its the right thing to do, its the true church, etc etc" BUT when it comes time to leave the church it is ALWAYS "So and so were not nice to me, I was "pressured" to be baptized, I didnt know for sure that the church was true etc etc"> Well, if you didn't ask Heavenly Father if the church was true or not and now you feel like leaving....GO! Have a great life. Take your free agency and run with it. 

Funny, I don't remember being offered an alternative at 8. I'll have to ask dad if he said: "Son, have you prayed about the Church being true before you decide on baptism?"

Seriously, how many 8 year olds question their parents on religious matters, or on anything for that matter?

Just remember, when someone leaves they are ALWAYS welcome back.

Hey, that's exactly what Greg Dodge said in my notice of name removal letter!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 13 2005, 01:36 PM

Amillia,

I said:

Based on what studies done by which universities or organizations do you base your assumption that leaving Mormonism is the result of one's inability to pay 10% of income, keep one's horse in the barn, or avoid intoxicating beverages? 

You replied:

BASED ON SIN~ any kind

Now while that type of answer might work on a 10 year old sunday school class, it's hardly convincing to anyone who's educated beyond the 8th grade.

I can only assume that you don't have anything to back up your statement. So a simple retraction will do.

Well I can just assume you are jumping ship cause you are guilty.

[john doe]

Originally posted by pushka@Apr 13 2005, 01:35 PM

John Doe, Proudduck and Amillia...yes I see your points regarding not caring about what another religion cares to do in your name after you have died, if it turns out that the church doing the deed is the 'one true one' then yes, I agree that they have done a great favour to mankind.

Just one question though...sorry if it sounds silly...when we are dead, will there be LDS missionaries teaching us the Gospel according to the LDS church? for those who have not been baptised by proxy? If so, surely they could try to convert the deceased instead of us taking the time to do it on their behalf now?

I don't know that there will be LDS missionaries, but I do believe that the gospel will be preached to each and every person who dies, where they will have ample opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. The reason we are performing those ordinances here on earth by proxy is that we believe that those are earthly ordinances, and cannot be performed elsewhere. By performing these ordinances here, we are not trying to convert anyone, we are merely saying "these have been done for you, you still have the option to accept or reject this work according to your own wishes". There is no force involved. Nobody is making anyone accept anything they don't want. The ordinances are not binding if the individual decides not to accept the work done for them.

[Jason]

Well I can just assume you are jumping ship cause you are guilty. 

An assumption is not a conviction. Talk to PD about this...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Have a nice summer!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Have a nice summer!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Have a nice summer!

[Amillia]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Apr 13 2005, 04:31 PM

Well I can just assume you are jumping ship cause you are guilty.  

An assumption is not a conviction. Talk to PD about this...

Another dodge?

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Apr 13 2005, 05:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Apr 13 2005, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Apr 13 2005, 10:22 AM

BASED ON SIN~ any kind

Umm...some people actually do not leave the church because they are guilty of sins. Some leave because they discovered things they do not like about Church history or doctrine. For lack of a better phrase, they "studied their way out" of the Church.

Actually, I know more people who have sinned and STAYED in the Church. Why is that?

Here is a thought:

If a sinner leaves the Church, they are also probably also an unbeliever, at least in the Atonement...otherwise they would stay so they can be forgiven by Christ!

So both the sinners and non-sinners will leave the church because of a lack of belief...which is a perfectly rational thing to do.

You may know more in church than out ~ but that is because of where you are in life/job/church ~

I know more out than in who are sinners.

[Amillia]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Apr 13 2005, 05:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Apr 13 2005, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Apr 13 2005, 12:55 PM

Seth,

Well, if you didn't ask Heavenly Father if the church was true or not and now you feel like leaving....GO!

Why do you presume that someone who leaves just hasn't asked that question? There are people in the Church who have asked, and haven't gotten an answer.

Good point, PD...

And haven't you heard the latest news?

It is no longer required to pray about the Book of Mormon for a Testimony.

Testing "Moroni's promise" seems to now be optional.

The following is copied and abridged from Boyd Packer's recent talk from General Conference:

<span style='color:green'>

"When I first read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover, I read the promise that if I "would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if [the things I had read were] true; and if [i would] ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he [would] manifest the truth of it unto [me], by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:4). I tried to follow those instructions, as I understood them.

If I expected a glorious manifestation to come at once as an overpowering experience, it did not happen. Nevertheless, it felt good, and I began to believe.

The next verse has an even greater promise: "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:5; emphasis added). I did not know how the Holy Ghost worked, even though the Book of Mormon explains it a number of times in a number of ways...

...If I had expected in my little-boy innocence some special spiritual experience, it had not happened. Over the years as I listened to sermons and lessons and read in the Book of Mormon, I began to understand...

...Do not be disappointed if you have read and reread and yet have not received a powerful witness. You may be somewhat like the disciples spoken of in the Book of Mormon who were filled with the power of God in great glory "and they knew it not" (3 Nephi 9:20).

Do the best you can. Think of this verse: "See that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order" (Mosiah 4:27)."

So Elder Packer asked God, with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ with the result that he did not get an answer. In fact he states that the only result was that "he felt good". That was his testimony.

The Church seems to be redefining a "testimony" (as described by Moroni) so that more people can have them.

Presiden Hinckley said something similar once...I don't remember the exact words, but the message was "if you're doing what's right, it demonstrates that you do have a testimony".

So you do not need to worry about getting an answer when you pray about the BoM. A testimony is now becoming something you "do" rather than something you have.

If you're obedient, that's a testimony.

I guess the Church is recognizing that a lot of people are really bothered by their failure to get an answer...a powerful feeling or "manifestation" that can be distinguished from common emotion.

Rather than risk losing converts, they redefine testimony so that it doesn't matter whether you have a manifestation at all.

Interesting thoughts and quotes from conference Taoist.

I think everyone is different. Some just don't know what they have until they lose it, and then they won't admit it.