atonement paradox

[Hemidakota]

And I take that bit of urban doctrine with a grain of salt.

True but that comes with a personal visitation to know whether or not it is so.

[Hemidakota]

There is a need for more than one atonement because I believe each Earth is populated by an Adam and Eve and each Earth is created perfectly, but must go through a fall. For each Earth which falls, there must be an atonemement made by a Christ. For our rhelm of existence, that atonement was done by Jesus, son of Mary. Since we have no knowledge or any other existence, all scripture should be considered pertenent to that rhelm. Infinite and eternal only applies to us, and our existence. One God and savior of mankind only applies to us. The sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of this Earth are only associated with this Earth. This earth will be glorified an become the Celestial Kingdom but only for the inhabitants and the sons (and daughters) of God who are associated with it. Heaven and Earth are only this rhelm, and do not apply atronomically outside of our solar system. Does God have other worlds? Yes. Does he have children on those worlds? Yes. Are they the children spoken of in Job 38;7? No. Are they the ones who will inherit the Earth? No. Did they fight the great Lucifer in the pre-existence? No.

First announcing to Moses:

And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. ...

the Lord continued:

And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. ...

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and of the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: the heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:31-39.)

[Hemidakota]

I agree -- what I proposed seems a bit far-fetched. In some ways it can makes sense, since "TIME" does not exist for Elohim. All things are present with Him, past and future are continually before Him. One eternal NOW.

Tom

Mortal time no but there is an eternal time mechanism.

[Hemidakota]

This is what I have been trying to point out. He says His honor is His power. Lucifer wanted His power.

What did Lucifer want to do?

Destroy the agency of man.

Elohim caused a world to be created where we could dwell, where the conditions of the fall could be met, so that we can be given our agency and choose good. Because He gave man his agency He had to send His Only Begotten Son to redeem men from their lost and fallen state, on condition of repentance. This happens 2 ways:

Forgiveness of sin

Remission of sin

Understand the difference between these two things really opens your eyes to the purpose of this world in the middle of the plan of salvation.

Do you remember the statement Lucifer made in the endowment when GOD ask him what was he doing there?

[Traveler]

This thread is interesting but there are some problems with some assumptions.

Some thoughts:

1. All infinites are not the same. For example: There are an infinite number of integer numbers and real numbers. There is an infinite number of real number bounded by any two integer numbers. So there are an infinite number of real number sets that contain an infinite number of real numbers that do not belong to any other of the infinite number of sets. I submit that it is possible to have an infinite number of infinite atonements – without any overlap anywhere.

2. All things that are revealed from G-d are according to covenant. The atonement itself is both given and received by covenant. The ancient Hebrew phrase that appears at the start of the book of Genesis: “In the beginning” does not convey the literal meaning. It would be better understood if it read: “In the beginning of covenants between G-d and man”. What is missing in our understanding of scripture is that the scriptures are referencing the beginning of a covenant. The atonement is an infinite atonement according to that covenant was begun in Genesis.

3. According to the covenant and plan of the Father there is only one G-d for all of fallen mankind and that is the G-d Jehovah or Jesus Christ or G-d the Son. He is our infinite G-d because of his infinite atonement – this is according to our covenant with him and according to that covenant it is also our agency. But he will only accept our agency with him by covenant whereby he becomes our G-d and we become his children by covenant. This forgotten covenant is confusing to Trinitarian Christians that do not understand that the agency of Jehovah is a covenant with G-d the Father; with whom we cannot covenant because of the fall and therefore we must have Jesus as our covenant Father so that Christ can mediate with the Father for us. This is also an infinite covenant that will have no end.

The Traveler

[mikbone]

saves all the works [WORLDS] of his hands

I think everyone agrees with you tomk.

Jehovah's atonement has jurisdiction over all the worlds that He (Jehovah) created physically.

The area of debate is, are there worlds out there that were that were physically created by someone other than Jehovah?

As far as we can see in all directions there is no end of space or matter. And we can look pretty dang far.

And this does not take into effect the possibilities that there are multiple universes. There could be an infinite number of universes.

Heck each atom itself could be a universe. Ever think about that?

[Hemidakota]

You could use the statement from Joseph Smith [TPJS, pp. 347-48]:

"What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children."

[mikbone]

So, are we going to be able to follow the path that has been traveled by our Fathers?

Or, are we on a seperate path?

[Hemidakota]

MB, I am curious to see what others here may conclude from that remark.

[mikbone]

I've had my baited hook in the water for some time now. I'm still waiting for that first nibble. Very nice evaision Hemi.

[Guest tomk]

I think everyone agrees with you tomk.

Jehovah's atonement has jurisdiction over all the worlds that He (Jehovah) created physically.

The area of debate is, are there worlds out there that were that were physically created by someone other than Jehovah?

As far as we can see in all directions there is no end of space or matter. And we can look pretty dang far.

And this does not take into effect the possibilities that there are multiple universes. There could be an infinite number of universes.

Heck each atom itself could be a universe. Ever think about that?

I have thought about this, as a matter of fact. :) And I am glad to see that you have, also. It is amazing to contemplate, isn't it?

I believe this is EXACTLY what the Lord was telling us in this passage:

From D&C 88:

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

Electrons are kingdoms. Quarks and Sub Quarks are kingdoms. I suppose it goes much smaller than that, if we only had microscopes powerful enough to see things that small.

When you realize that Jesus, and Father, have "honor" with these intelligences, these extremely small entities that comprise us, then the miracles of healing the sick, turning water into wine, parting the Red Sea, or converting a soul unto righteousness -- these miracles seem to take on more of a "science" aspect, instead of being so mystical. Interestingly, having this understanding does nothing to dampen my awe or enthusiasm. Just because we can explain a miracle does not mean it cannot still be wondrous!

D&C 93: 30

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

This is as true of ME as it is for an atom of carbon. This is astounding.

Tom

[Guest tomk]

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From these scriptures I lean more towards the idea that there is one Saviour for all the worlds Elohim has created; Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ did not atone for Elohim's sins, if indeed He did sin, as there is "no God beside Elohim." Also, yes, I do believe that there are an infinite number of Saviour's for Elohim's relatives of gods who have their own creations.

One main reason I feel that the Saviour did not atone for His Father is due to the hierarchy of the patriarchal order.

Also, Tom, I have longed wondered how we are to perfectly understand the Saviour and Father unless we are willing to suffer to the depth/degree they have? Correct me if you disagree, but isn't opposition in all things? In order to feel a perfect happiness, it makes sense to me that I must understand a perfect sorrow alongside of it.

In the end, is any suffering in vain, truly? Does it matter the many Saviours suffering the many times they have, if this is true? I believe that suffering/pain is a great deal the purpose of our mortal experience, and how we choose to handle it. No, I don't believe in masochism or inflicting pain on others. I believe life hands us the pain in abundance. Here is our choice, to also reflect on the good life offers (what is given us by Christ and His atonement.) I believe this is what the atonement is all about, to choose the positive, goodly ways of living and perceiving life, amidst all the evil.

I also am beginning to think that there are multiple atonements, each one applying only to the children of Heavenly Parents - of which Elohim and His Eternal Companion(s?) are just a few among possibly TRILLIONS of other Heavenly Parents.

I believe that we each must suffer as the Father and His Son did. But like them, we will do so while yet remaining without sin. Christ did what He did to spare us from an eternity of damnation. THAT was the kind of suffering He wanted to spare us from. He has never said that we would never have to suffer in order to understand Him and the Father. In fact, we're promised that we will have a fullness of joy, but still feel sorrow for the wickedness of others. I just want to say, not in response to anyone's post, that Elohim is not somehow less of a God because He felt pain and anguish over Lucifer and those who followed him. These were children!!!! Precious children that have been lost to Him for an eternity!!!!

In our individual mortal probations, the Atonement does something wonderful. Some people are not even aware of this. But awareness, or lack thereof, does not negate what is. It is what it is, and is not subject to belief.

That wonderful something is choice. Through the power of the Atonement we can CHOOSE how we will respond to circumstances, including great suffering. As in all things, Christ was the Great Exemplar! He showed us that we can endure great suffering if we will rely upon a greater power than our own. In His case, Christ relied upon His Father, for there was nobody greater, or qualified, to power the Atonement. Christ did tread the winepress alone, but Elohim powered it. Elohim showed Christ how to endure it.

Christ is amazing. As a friend of mine once described Him and His influence "it is a joyful consciousness of everything positive and GOOD". That is one of the best descriptions of Him that I have ever encountered!

Whenever I reach out to the Savior, I feel love and acceptance. I often marvel at this, for I am wicked. The Savior cannot countenance sin, but that does not mean that He loves me any less than the Prophet. It is that LOVE that entices me to persist, as broken as I am.

Thank you, Dove.

Tom

[Guest tomk]

Wow, a deep topic!! :-)

Tom, I have been taught that God the Father was a Saviour in his mortal life....Hence the scriptures that there is nothing the Saviour does that He didn't first see His Father do....

I don't believe the atonement of our Saviour/Jesus Christ was what glorified our Father in Heaven. That doesn't ring true/make sense to me. I believe God the Father was already exalted/resurrected before He began creating His universes/worlds and established His first born (Saviour) as their Redeemer.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Could you give me scriptural references to back this up?

Also, are you assuming that Christ's atonement goes backward towards all previous Gods as well as forward?

Also, I have long wondered that if Jesus Christ only did what He has seen His Father do, where does that leave the rest of us in creating our worlds? If we haven't been Saviour's ourselves, how can we parent/be an example to the Saviour of our worlds?

Thank you,

Dove

I believe I have answered these questions now.

As far as my original post -- I can see now that such was not the case. The Atonement did not go back in time and somehow save and exalt Elohim, His Father. That was powered by Elohim's Savior, which Savior belongs to another creation:

Moses 1: 35

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

But it does not stretch the imagination too far to speculate that, since the Gospel is "ONE ETERNAL ROUND" -- that this earth serves as a TYPE. Anyone who gains exaltation gains it through the mediation of a Savior, and each creation has it's own Savior.

By "creation" I mean -- innumerable worlds created by the Savior.

Interestingly, "innumerable" does not necessarily mean infinite. It means, man cannot count them. If you were to start counting at birth, and counted a star every second, you would not be able to number ALL of the stars by the time you died. There would still be billions more left uncounted. So, quite literally, God's creations are "innumerable" unto man!

Edited May 1, 2009 by tomk

[Guest tomk]

I think everyone agrees with you tomk.

Jehovah's atonement has jurisdiction over all the worlds that He (Jehovah) created physically.

The area of debate is, are there worlds out there that were that were physically created by someone other than Jehovah?

As far as we can see in all directions there is no end of space or matter. And we can look pretty dang far.

And this does not take into effect the possibilities that there are multiple universes. There could be an infinite number of universes.

Heck each atom itself could be a universe. Ever think about that?

I agree.

I mean, why not?

We don't even comprehend our OWN "tiny" solar system, really. We can't explain how out of 9 planets, ours is this perfect blue world that supports an astounding variety of life. The odds of our being positioned not too close and not too far are incomprehensible. We only have to look at the other 8 planets to know this.

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

[Hemidakota]

The thing we have to remember concerning this earth and other planets, mortal life requires a propionate size and distance of a glorified telestial world [sun], but this doesn't mean, other worlds do not have life forms that are not telestial level. Even though, we are limited to small wave spectrum of our physical light, anything outside of this bound may still contain life.

There is nothing to say, our universe is nothing more than an atom or perhaps, something greater, as to a Neuron within a supreme being.

So, are we going to be able to follow the path that has been traveled by our Fathers?

Or, are we on a separate path?

Mikbone, no one took the bait. http://i.azjmp.com/0SbSY

[mikbone]

I believe that we each must suffer as the Father and His Son did. But like them, we will do so while yet remaining without sin.

I feel a nibble

[Hemidakota]

http://i.azjmp.com/0SbSY

[mikbone]

I must be using the wrong lure. I thought my #4 post in this thread was a big juicy worm. Maybe I should be using a fly rod...

[Guest tomk]

I feel a nibble

You give me too much credit.

What are you wanting to discuss?

I work best with no hints (which is why Hemi's posts frustrate me).

No offense, Hemi.

[Hemidakota]

This is a great area of debate and conjecture. Which I do enjoy.

Hemi - I've never though of your proposition before that each Savior is able to be the Savior for his Father (Elohim acted as the Savior for our Heavenly Grandfather). It seems backwards to me though. Hollar at me if I misunderstand you please.

r."

I do believe this is what had occurred prior to our own creation from a lower intelligence based on what the Savior stated in the New Testament. But, I do not believe all glorified celestial beings will have to go through this process in order to be a FATHER [GOD]; example of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob now reside on there own respective thrones.

As Jehovah progress after this state, He will have His own creation and thus creating spirit children for another earth. A Savior will be selected among them and hence, the cycle is repeated.

Now, where the FATHER's treads next, is the mystery since we will have white stone in order to see above the Celestial Kingdom.

[Hemidakota]

You give me too much credit.

What are you wanting to discuss?

I work best with no hints (which is why Hemi's posts frustrate me).

No offense, Hemi.

Tom, I have concluded that most do not need to know specific truths that were taught to Joseph and others who had the same desire as Enoch. My biggest mistake was to bless a young teenager based on this desire only to read this letter later stating, “I am alone now, seeing the savior Jesus Christ and too mature to talk to my friends about it…” This same individual not only witnessed the Savior, seen Lucifer, a couple of prophets, Nephi, the three Nephites, to include heavenly Father. This same individual can also describe Mary Magdalene.

Tom, I now carry the burden of this child’s plight. I had applied something I am now reluctant and filled with tears in doing so after receiving the letter. We must careful when we bless others, on what is given from the Spirit and what is given from our own thoughts. What I had learned from this mistake, what I blessed this child was done prior to a Patriarchal Blessing. When the blessing was given, I found out it was in line in what I had blessed this child with, to include in writing scriptures. For me, this is a great sin in doing so. Now seeing the sorrow this person carries around – eyes being opened for such a young age, it is a heavy burden for me. All I can say again, we must always be careful in not revealing or allow blessing of such for those who still need to allow the time of being a child.

When ever we asked for something that is equivalent to what Abraham desired, we will begin a lonely journey that many others will not understand.

[mikbone]

You give me too much credit.

What are you wanting to discuss?

I work best with no hints

Ok, if your gonna twist my arm.

Here is the real paradox in my opinion.

1) There is a path that has been tread by our fathers.

2) We are traveling on a path.

3) Are these paths the same?

Ill try to illustrate the dilemma.

First look as ourselves. I'll use lowercase letters to represent our estate.

a) intelligence

b) spirit birth, pre-existent state

c) mortal life experiencing sin, and being able to take advantage of a saviors atonement

Now look at the Gods estates, lets use capital letters for them.

A) Holy Spirit - no corporeal body but still a God.

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items"

B ) Mortal estate as a Savior (eschewing sin and performing an atonement)

C) Exalted immortal Celestial God capable of producing spirit children.

Most people think the progression goes like this.

a -> b-> c -> C

I submit that the exaltation of man more likely works like this.

a -> b -> c -> A -> B -> C

Comments?

Edited May 1, 2009 by mikbone
formatting

[Hemidakota]

Michael was a Holy Ghost and became Adam...[second councilor position]

Two immortal beings does not constitute a spirit child. It will bring forth a [A]Immortal being. Spirit children were created after their image...if that is the case, then what were these intelligence created from?

Edited May 1, 2009 by Hemidakota

[mikbone]

Michael was a Holy Ghost and became Adam...[second councilor]

Is that an assumption, or do you have a reference to support that statement?

Intelligences are not created. (I'd submit the reference, but I'm stuck in a confrence atm, texting on my iPhone).

Edited May 1, 2009 by mikbone

[Hemidakota]

Do you hold a temple recommend?