atonement paradox

April 28, 2009

I was pondering the phrase that Father often speaks when He speaks of His Son, Jesus Christ. "This is my Beloved Son..."

If we accept as fact that Elohim was once like us, and is now an Exalted Man, a resurrected Being, and the Atonement is what powers the Resurrection, then Elohim was resurrected through the power of the Atonement.

I say this is possible, because the Atonement is infinite in breadth, depth, scope, and time. It saves all the works of the Son -- past, present and future.

So it would not matter if Jesus existed, as a spirit body, when Elohim was resurrected and glorified. The power of the Atonement was already in effect. Then Father became the father of Jesus, both his spirit and his physical body, later on.

Thus would the Son be Beloved to the Father, for by His power was the Father resurrected and glorified.

John 5: 17-23, 26, 30, 36-37, 43, 45

17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

• • •

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

• • •

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

• • •

36 ¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

• • •

43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever [THE FATHER] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

sheweth him all things that himself doeth

The Father was the Exemplar for the Son in ALL THINGS, including the mechanism of the Resurrection.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

The Father and Son risked EVERYTHING in order to provide a way for us to return home.

Tom

Hemidakota · April 28, 2009

I say this is possible, because the Atonement is infinite in breadth, depth, scope, and time. It saves all the works of the Son -- past, present and future.
So it would not matter if Jesus existed, as a spirit body, when Elohim was resurrected and glorified. The power of the Atonement was already in effect. Then Father became the father of Jesus, both his spirit and his physical body, later on....
The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever [THE FATHER] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
sheweth him all things that himself doeth

Exactly...Tom, it is always puzzling when I hear this about an Infinite Atonement that expands the universe, when we are told that Jesus..."for what things soever [THE FATHER] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." If that being the case, the FATHER may had been a Savior for HIS FATHER. We can surmised based on scriptures given and further enlightenment of the late Prophet Joseph Smith concerning more than just FATHER rules in this universe, the atonement is not infinite for life outside of the FATHER's creation.

In any case, thanks for demonstrating the research ability to prove the case.

Dove · April 28, 2009

Wow, a deep topic!! :-)

Tom, I have been taught that God the Father was a Saviour in his mortal life....Hence the scriptures that there is nothing the Saviour does that He didn't first see His Father do....

I don't believe the atonement of our Saviour/Jesus Christ was what glorified our Father in Heaven. That doesn't ring true/make sense to me. I believe God the Father was already exalted/resurrected before He began creating His universes/worlds and established His first born (Saviour) as their Redeemer.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Could you give me scriptural references to back this up?

Also, are you assuming that Christ's atonement goes backward towards all previous Gods as well as forward?

Also, I have long wondered that if Jesus Christ only did what He has seen His Father do, where does that leave the rest of us in creating our worlds? If we haven't been Saviour's ourselves, how can we parent/be an example to the Saviour of our worlds?

Thank you,

Dove

mikbone · April 28, 2009

This is a great area of debate and conjecture. Which I do enjoy.

TomK - I gather that you are proposing that Jesus Christ is the only God that ever was able to complete an atonement and that since his atonement is eternal (outside of time) that by his act, all will be able to overcome sin. This includes Elohim, and any of Elohim's forefathers. And if we are eventually to become like God, our spirit children will also have to look to Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Hemi - I've never though of your proposition before that each Savior is able to be the Savior for his Father (Elohim acted as the Savior for our Heavenly Grandfather). It seems backwards to me though. Hollar at me if I misunderstand you please.

The basis for most of these debates takes root in the King Follett Discourse given by Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 its a good read.

-- King Follett Discourse --

There are 2 different propositions that usually are discussed:

The first is that there is a line of Firstborn Savior Gods. In this theory, Elohim was also a Savior. And when Jesus Christ has his Firstborn Spirit child, that Son will have the capacity to become a Savior. This idea has merit, but it does bring about one concept that is unsavory in that those Firstborn Savior Gods are essentially superior to and unlike us.

The second concept is that to become like God you have to do what HE did. Essentially that there is a pathway that takes a soul from one degree to another until they become like Father is. In this proposal we are currently in a state that preceedes the estate of Jesus Christ. Essentially that we will have to pass through a similar course of events even as the Savior did - if we wish to continue to become like GOD. This theory best describes Lorenzo Snow couplet btw. "As man is God once was, as God is man may be."

This is the idea that I currently subscribe to, but it has its own complications that are quite obvious. Some believe that if this theory is correct that it would also dictate that Jehovah previously lived on planet (a different one than this Earth) upon which he sinned and passed through a mortal probationary state just like the one that you and I are currently experiencing...

John 5:19 -- Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

My intrepretation of the above is that Jesus could only partake of the Atonement because he had witnessed Elohim partake of an Atonement. If so, this is significant! It not only means that Elohim was a Savior; but that while Elohim was a savior, Jehovah was sentient and experienced it. I doubt that you or I were aware of this event as Elohim had yet to create spiritually.

I'll finish this post by quoting Willard Richards entry into the Joseph Smith Diary of the King Follett Discourse.

"(I) refute the Idea that God was God from all eternity -

Jesus said as the father had power in himself even so hath the son power to do what the father did. Lay down his body. & take it up again-

you have got to learn how to make yourselves God, Kings, Priests, &c. -

by going from a small to great capacity. Till they are able to dwell in everlasting burning & everlasting power."

Edited April 28, 2009 by mikbone

tubaloth · April 28, 2009

If we accept as fact that Elohim was once like us, and is now an Exalted Man, a resurrected Being, and the Atonement is what powers the Resurrection, then Elohim was resurrected through the power of the Atonement.

But, that would mean there is only one Atonement. (for all time and for everybody even outside our Heavenly Fathers creative power?)

There was an Atonement for Elohim, but it was the savior from His Father’s plan of salvation.

(So for Each Father, they have there own Plan of Salvation for there own Children, and call there own Savior, and give him power to accomplish the atonement for there children.)

I say this is possible, because the Atonement is infinite in breadth, depth, scope, and time. It saves all the works of the Son -- past, present and future.

It does save all in the realm of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ’s creative power. Heavenly Father didn’t create children before himself. The Atonement of Jesus Christ (our Christ) saves all of Heavenly Fathers children, but it does no carry over to Heavenly Fathers brother’s children or His Dad’s children.

So it would not matter if Jesus existed, as a spirit body, when Elohim was resurrected and glorified.

So that is to say that Jesus Christ was already created (as a spirit) before our Heavenly Father was glorifed? So then Jesus Christ really isn’t Heavenly Father’s son. Or Heavenly Father had Jesus Christ as his son, before he was glorified?

The power of the Atonement was already in effect. Then Father became the father of Jesus, both his spirit and his physical body, later on.

How do you become the spirit father of Jesus Christ after he was already a spirit?

Thus would the Son be Beloved to the Father, for by His power was the Father resurrected and glorified.

But Christ didn’t have the power of God like his Father had. Christ’s power and the atonement of Jesus Christ came because of his Father. Christ was able to create worlds, heal the sick, raise the dead, perform the Atonement not because of some power he had, but because of the power Heavenly Father gave him to perform his work.

So our Heavenly Father in heaven Needed Jesus Christ to perform the atonement so he could have all power? If Christ would have failed, then Heavenly Father would never have gotten All power?

I think the confusion for me are we talking about two Atonements (which is the way I see it) or One atonement for all?

Exactly...Tom, it is always puzzling when I hear this about an Infinite Atonement that expands the universe, when we are told that Jesus..."for what things soever [THE FATHER] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." If that being the case, the FATHER may had been a Savior for HIS FATHER.

I disagree. I think the scripture is not so specific in saying that Jesus Christ would not know how to Atone for our sins, unless he had seen somebody else do it? So Christ had to see a vision of Heavenly Father suffering, before he was able to do what was required?

I think the scripture means, he saw the obedience of his Father in all things. And thus Christ knew he could be obedient in all things, even through the Atonement.

Justice · April 28, 2009

If we accept as fact that Elohim was once like us, and is now an Exalted Man, a resurrected Being, and the Atonement is what powers the Resurrection, then Elohim was resurrected through the power of the Atonement.

I don't think enough has been revealed to definately arrive at this conclusion.

I believe how we define "the eternities" is the key to understanding this. I believe the "eternity" that our Father in Heaven was resurrected in was a different "eternity" than where Christ was resurrected. I believe that Christ's atonement is only for His creations and His eternity. I don't believe it could be retroactive and apply to anything that happened before His creations.

Eternity is a difficult concept for humans to grasp. But, remember that "eternity" may not be equal to "forever." But, forever might be considered to include "all eternities."

It is my belief that an eternity is a generation of God's children... from being born, made mortal, and perfected. This is described as "one eternal round."

There are quotes from General Authorities that both agree and contradict with this theory. Sometimes you have to pick a side. This "speculation" really has no bearing on our eternal salvation.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Justice

April 29, 2009

I've received some great input here. Thank you.

Nothing I've read so far seems to answer the question definitively.

Is there a need for more than ONE Atonement?

I agree -- what I proposed seems a bit far-fetched. In some ways it can makes sense, since "TIME" does not exist for Elohim. All things are present with Him, past and future are continually before Him. One eternal NOW.

It suggests that Elohim had some sort of dependence upon His (then) still future Son to perform the Atonement.

------------

So this brings us to the other scenario. That for each "family of God" there is a Savior. That potentially TRILLIONS of Atonements have been peformed, each Atonement only applying to the children of a Heavenly Father and Mother, whose scope applies only to that which was created that "batch" -- it would not impact OTHER creations elsewhere.

This also seems wrong. It seems contrary to the economy of God to keep performing an Atonement OVER and OVER and OVER again.

None of this has a bearing on what is needful for us during our mortal probation. It is sufficient for me to know that Christ did it, and that He extends those blessings to me if I will.

Tom

Justice · April 29, 2009

Well, Tom, if you consider that Jesus Christ is a spirit Son of the Father, then you believe Heavenly Father was born, dwelt as a mortal, then prefected before Jesus Christ was born as a spirit. Then, Jesus Christ was born as a mortal and performed the Atonement.

If Father was perfected in a different eternity, then Christ's atonement cannot be what perfected Father.

That was my attempt to answer your question.

I don't look at it like an Atonement is being performed over and over and over. I look at it like procreation and exaltation is happening for eternities. Exaltation by nature must include many things... an atonement is just one of them.

mikbone · April 29, 2009

potentially TRILLIONS of Atonements have been peformed

More likely an infinite number of atonements.

:combust:

I believe that Christ's atonement is only for His creations and His eternity.

I concur.

Edited April 29, 2009 by mikbone

mikbone · April 29, 2009

I believe that Christ's atonement is only for His creations and His eternity.

I concur.

Edited April 29, 2009 by mikbone

tubaloth · April 29, 2009

This also seems wrong. It seems contrary to the economy of God to keep performing an Atonement OVER and OVER and OVER again.

If and when the chance comes, I hope it is Me and my son (Savior) that helped save my spirital children, not somebody else's son.

mikbone · April 29, 2009

If and when the chance comes, I hope it is Me and my son (Savior) that helped save my spirital children, not somebody else's son.

That a boy!

I'll come at it from a different point of view.

HONOR

What is Honor? Why does Elohim have it in spades? Does Jesus Christ have honor? Where did he get his honor?

Lets return to the war in heaven. One of the most basic causes of the rift was the issue as to who was going to recieve the honor of saving the spirit children of Elohim.

D&C 29: 36

And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Moses 4: 1

And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

Satan's opinion on the topic is obvious. He knew that redeeming mankind would generate honor. He wanted the opportunity to become like God and partake of his honor without having to go through an atonement.

Jehovah on the other hand had full understanding.

Moses 4:2

But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

Jehovah did what he did not for the honor but because he loved both us and his Father. The honor & glory that is naturally a by-product of an atonement he was willing to give to our Father without remorse.

Can we make a list of things that were achieved by performing an atonement? Ill start.

By products of the atonement:

1) The ability to grant a remission of sin and overcome the effects of the fall of Adam (too many scriptures to list)

2) The light of truth (D&C 88:6)

3) Honor & Glory

Edited April 29, 2009 by mikbone

tubaloth · April 29, 2009

Jehovah did what he did not for the honor but because he loved both us and his Father.

I would add its was also the Love of our Father in the first place that he sent his Son. It was the Love of our Father that allowed us to come to earth, and to become more like Him.

Meaning the point of being a god is to have a fullness of Joy, that fullness of Joy happens in redeeming your children, there is no better way to show Love then helping your children recive a fulness of glory.

Thats not to say it couldn't happen if it was done by some other savior (that came before you), but to put the full plan of salvation into motion, is fullness of joy!

Nothing · April 29, 2009

You all are way off if you think the atonement of Jesus Christ did anything to save the Father.

bytebear · April 29, 2009

There is a need for more than one atonement because I believe each Earth is populated by an Adam and Eve and each Earth is created perfectly, but must go through a fall. For each Earth which falls, there must be an atonemement made by a Christ. For our rhelm of existence, that atonement was done by Jesus, son of Mary. Since we have no knowledge or any other existence, all scripture should be considered pertenent to that rhelm. Infinite and eternal only applies to us, and our existence. One God and savior of mankind only applies to us. The sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of this Earth are only associated with this Earth. This earth will be glorified an become the Celestial Kingdom but only for the inhabitants and the sons (and daughters) of God who are associated with it. Heaven and Earth are only this rhelm, and do not apply atronomically outside of our solar system. Does God have other worlds? Yes. Does he have children on those worlds? Yes. Are they the children spoken of in Job 38;7? No. Are they the ones who will inherit the Earth? No. Did they fight the great Lucifer in the pre-existence? No.

Edited April 29, 2009 by bytebear

Justice · April 29, 2009

For each Earth which falls, there must be an atonemement made by a Christ.

I'm not sure about this.

Must is a strong word. Just as Christ visited other areas on this earth other than where He was born, He certainly could have visited other earths. Just as others saw the atonement of Christ in vision, those of other earths could have seen it in vision. The vast majority of people on this earth believe in Christ and were not present to see His life, death, burial, or resurrection. I don't believe it is expressly spelled out in scripture rule out the possibility that Christ's atonement covers all His creations, worlds without end, which is where I lean.

I have seen comments for and against what you have suggested. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, because frankly, I don't know yet. I'm only pointing out that there are other possibilities.

Justice · April 29, 2009

What is Honor? Why does Elohim have it in spades?

This is what I have been trying to point out. He says His honor is His power. Lucifer wanted His power.

What did Lucifer want to do?

Destroy the agency of man.

Elohim caused a world to be created where we could dwell, where the conditions of the fall could be met, so that we can be given our agency and choose good. Because He gave man his agency He had to send His Only Begotten Son to redeem men from their lost and fallen state, on condition of repentance. This happens 2 ways:

Forgiveness of sin

Remission of sin

Understand the difference between these two things really opens your eyes to the purpose of this world in the middle of the plan of salvation.

Dove · April 29, 2009

1 The words of God, which he aspake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high bmountain,

2 And he asaw God bface to face, and he ctalked with him, and the dglory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God aAlmighty, and bEndless is my cname; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore alook, and I will show thee the bworkmanship of mine chands; but not all, for my dworks are without eend, and also my fwords, for they never cease.

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my aworks, except he behold all my bglory; and no man can cbehold all my dglory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the asimilitude of mine bOnly cBegotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the dSavior, for he is full of egrace and ftruth; but there is gno God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I hknow them all.

7 And now, behold, this one thing I show unto thee, Moses, my son, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee.

8 And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the aworld upon which he was created; and Moses bbeheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly cmarveled and wondered.

27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and abeheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, bdiscerning it by the cspirit of God. 28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a asoul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.

29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called aearth, and there were binhabitants on the face thereof.

30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: aTell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?

31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him aface to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own bpurpose have I made these things. Here is cwisdom and it remaineth in me.

32 And by the aword of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of bgrace and truth.

33 And aworlds without number have I bcreated; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the cSon I dcreated them, which is mine eOnly Begotten.

34 And the afirst man of all men have I called bAdam, which is cmany.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I aknow them.

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and atell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The aheavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no aend to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my awork and my bglory—to bring to pass the cimmortality and deternal elife of man.

From these scriptures I lean more towards the idea that there is one Saviour for all the worlds Elohim has created; Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ did not atone for Elohim's sins, if indeed He did sin, as there is "no God beside Elohim." Also, yes, I do believe that there are an infinite number of Saviour's for Elohim's relatives of gods who have their own creations.

One main reason I feel that the Saviour did not atone for His Father is due to the hierarchy of the patriarchal order.

Also, Tom, I have longed wondered how we are to perfectly understand the Saviour and Father unless we are willing to suffer to the depth/degree they have? Correct me if you disagree, but isn't opposition in all things? In order to feel a perfect happiness, it makes sense to me that I must understand a perfect sorrow alongside of it.

In the end, is any suffering in vain, truly? Does it matter the many Saviours suffering the many times they have, if this is true? I believe that suffering/pain is a great deal the purpose of our mortal experience, and how we choose to handle it. No, I don't believe in masochism or inflicting pain on others. I believe life hands us the pain in abundance. Here is our choice, to also reflect on the good life offers (what is given us by Christ and His atonement.) I believe this is what the atonement is all about, to choose the positive, goodly ways of living and perceiving life, amidst all the evil.

Dove · April 29, 2009