Believe, Works, and Faith

[aj4u]

"No one defends the Bible to be the word of God as do most Mormons." I am glad to hear that, but "How did the Bible prepare the world for Joseph Smith?" as you mentioned. The way i understand the Bible is it has always been centered around Christ Jesus. There has never been a greater prophet, teacher, restorer, healer and counselor than Jesus. He is the total spiritual sum of all things. The sole purpose of the Bible from a Christian background such as mine and from the Bible itself has been to reveal Christ. Even Paul said, I will hear nothing among you save for Jesus Christ crucified. He even said if any brings you another gospel let him be acursed. How do you defend that portion of the Bible?

Edited May 14, 2009 by aj4u

[Justice]

Love and Charity are not the same things.

Anyway...

It matters not what man says about man but what God says about him. Didn't you know that?

I quoted scripture word for word and you found a way to disagree with me.

Matthew 7:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I don't get why you seem to just want to disagree with me.

It wasn't me that said by their fruit you will know them, it was Christ. All I did was quote Him and ask you if this David guy didn't have fruit of the Gospel. I didn't know him, you did and you left his church realizing he was a false prophet. It seemed like an innocent question.

[JohnnyRudick]

"No one defends the Bible to be the word of God as do most Mormons." I am glad to hear that, but "How did the Bible prepare the world for Joseph Smith?" as you mentioned. The way i understand the Bible is it has always been centered around Christ Jesus. There has never been a greater prophet, teacher, restorer, healer and counselor than Jesus. He is the total spiritual sum of all things. The sole purpose of the Bible from a Christian background such as mine and from the Bible itself has been to reveal Christ. Even Paul said, I will hear nothing among you save for Jesus Christ crucified. He even said if any brings you another gospel let him be acursed. How do you defend that portion of the Bible?

I apologize in advance.

My mind is a mess but I try to tell what I can remember what I have learned throughout the years.

It is not about Joseph Smith any more then the Law is about Moses.

It is all about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith as did Paul, both preached Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

Paul preached the gospel that Jesus told Paul to preach as did Joseph.

After the gospel was preached by the Apostles there came a time that Satan again ruled the world and the Dark Ages came in.

The Church had to go into the wilderness much in the same manner that Israel had to sojourn in the wilderness except the only Moses the Church had was the Scriptures kept written by Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Jude and so on that they could hold onto and pass on to later generations.

Even though the Word survived in many places the Church lost it's authority and form.

The Church hid out, losing it's shepherds in many instances being tost about from place to place.

Yet these surviving Scriptures that these individuals carried and hid with them became our Bible.

These Scripture were immediately under fire.

Even from the time of the Apostles there was attempts to falsify the letters of the Apostles and even destroy their writings when found.

Precious manuscripts were preserved by such as the church at Pella in Palestine where Christians fled, when in 70 A.D. the Romans destroyed Jerusalem;…These manuscripts have in agreement with them, by far the vast majority of copies of the original text. So vast is this majority that even the enemies of the Received Text admit that nineteen-twentieths of all Greek manuscripts are in this class…

A few manuscripts have their roots in Antioch, Syria where Jesus' followers were first called "Christians" (Acts 11:26) and where the Gospel of Matthew was most likely written.

The TR (The Received Text of the European Bibles of the Reformation) has it's roots with the Hebrew and Greek spoken in the apostolic churches, and reappearing at intervals down the Christian Era among enlightened believers and was protected by the wisdom and scholarship of the pure church in her different phases throughout history.

Also

Back in that early day

A cult was founded around 160AD in Egypt which added and subtracted to the writings of the Apostles at will and continues up to this day using many of the same translations (Older, better manuscripts say. . .) provided by the same old crowd.

The Book of Mormon reveals to us;

1 Nephi 13:26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve

apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest

the formation of a great and abominable church, which is most

abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken

away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and

most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they

taken away.

1 Nephi 13:27 And all this have they done that they might pervert

the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and

harden the hearts of the children of men.

Isaiah was given a revelation that he wrote down for us;

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit

of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your

rulers, the seers hath he covered.

God told us through Amos the prophet;

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I

will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a

thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the

north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the

word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Men arose who believed in keeping men in the dark concerning the words of God.

They created a stream of polluted scriptures.

This stream, I call a Satanic stream, a small dirty stream consisting of a very few manuscripts. These manuscripts are represented:

(a) In Greek: The Vaticanus MS., or Codex B, in the library at Rome; and the Sinaitic, or Codex Aleph, its brother…

(b) In Latin: The Vulgate or Latin Bible of Jerome.

© In English: The Jesuit Bible of 1582, which later with vast changes is seen in the Douay, or Catholic Bible.

(d) In English again in the writings of the likes of Wescott and Hort.

And what of the Church?

The church through the centuries had to hide in the hills and mountains of Turkey, Greece and Italy and even France from those who would burn their churches, Scriptures and even the Christians themselves.

The established church did not like the people to possess the Scriptures.

When the people had the words of God they would have their own churches and would not give allegiance to those in power but to God.

Trying to wind this thing up

In time Scholars like Erasmus took of these surviving manuscripts ad compiled the TR which brought about the Protestant Reformation bringing the Scriptures that survived to the world.

The Latin Vulgate type manuscripts were rejected

and the non African manuscripts were used to produce the

(a) Zurich (Swiss) Version (1529),

(b) LeFevre's (French) Bible (1534),

© the Olivetan (French) Bible (1535),

(d) Laurentius (Swedish) Bible (1541),

(e) the Christian (Danish) Bible (1550),

(f) Biestken's (Dutch) Bible (1558),

(g) de Reyna's (Spanish) Bible (1569),

(h) the Czech Version (1602)

(i) and Diodati's (Italian) Bible (1607)

(j) And the King James Bible of 1611.

This opened up the New world and the spiritual revolution of the early United States.

Setting the stage for the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ was about to again become formally organized on the Earth.

God raises up a Prophet of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I have to wind this up at this time.

But please give this some prayer and also excuse my clumsiness in presenting this very involved History,

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 14, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spelling;)

[Hemidakota]

If we are referring to King David, here is the answer:

Status of King David

Question: "Some time ago the question came up as to the standing of King David because of his sin as pertaining to Uriah. Because we understand there is no forgiveness for murder some of the class felt he lost his priesthood and retrogressed from the time of this incident. Others felt that inasmuch as David repented and abhorred his sin and indicated his sorrow, that he did not lose his priesthood. Would you please enlighten us? What is the teaching of the Church on this point? What is his status?"

Answer: David sorely repented all his life, but his sin was so great that he lost everything and the Prophet Joseph Smith has given us this information. Speaking of the Jews whom Peter addressed as recorded in the third chapter of Acts, they could not receive forgiveness for their sins, although they repented, until Christ comes, and the same is true of David. These are the words of the Prophet to the Jews:

A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the priesthood; and the priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (redemption) shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you," &c. (Acts 3:19-21.) The time of redemption here had reference to the time when Christ should come; then and not till then, would their sins be blotted out. Why? Because they were murderers, and no murderer hath eternal life. Even David must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out. For Peter, speaking of him says, "David hath not yet ascended into heaven, for his sepulchre is with us to this day." (Acts 2:29.) His remains were then in the tomb. Now, we read that many bodies of the Saints arose at Christ's resurrection, probably all the Saints, but it seems that David did not. (Matthew 27:52-53.) Why? Because he had been a murderer. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 239, 188.)

How do we account for David's behavior? We can only suggest some possibilities. For one thing, he was a man of war, one who had ordered the death of a number of men through the years; perhaps he had become somewhat hardened to killing. Then, too, apparently he did not know Uriah well because he did not know Bathsheba's identity. As for taking a woman of his choosing, he was accustomed to that, being a king with numerous wives and concubines.

But, ironically, perhaps his fatal flaw was his earlier unquestioning loyalty toward the Lord's anointed. He well may have transferred that very loyalty to himself. Like Saul, he, too, had become untouchable and beyond judgment. Was he not the king? Did he not have rights and privileges denied lesser men? He saw the woman. He wanted her. He took her.

Another irony, as Saul had sought the life of loyal David, so David took the life of loyal Uriah. Both kings were motivated by the desire to protect their thrones and the honor of the Lord's anointed.

Had David stopped at adultery, the Lord could have forgiven him; but murder doomed him. And it was all for naught. Nathan the prophet came to David and told him the classic parable of the one ewe lamb belonging to a poor man that a rich man having "exceeding many flocks and herds" callously took from him. Incensed by the injustice, David swore an oath: "As the Lord liveth, the man that has done this thing shall surely die: and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity." Nathan answered: "Thou art the man." (2 Sam. 12:6-7.)

[JohnnyRudick]

If we are referring to King David, here is the answer: . . .

(2 Sam. 12:6-7.)

Wow!

Thanks alot:)

I remember reading something very similar years ago but I lost most of it (gone out of my mind and anywhere I can find).

I copied this down and put it in my "General Knowledge" file and I thank you very much:D

Worded much better then I could ever stumble through it:p

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

- We believe in eternal progression.

- To progress in our pre-mortal existence, Jesus and Lucifer presented 2 plans.

- Jesus' plan then is to create earth, put man in it, and give him free choice.

- And because Jesus knows us all before we are born on earth, he knew that we would need a Savior to get us back on the program.

- Every person then who is born on earth - including Timothy McVeigh - has made the choice to follow Jesus in the pre-mortal life and therefore, will be resurrected. Our faith in Jesus and our actions on earth will determine what we inherit in the afterlife.

- After mortal death, we get to stay in the Spirit World where we learn more about the things of God.

- After the millenium, we will all head to the kingdom that we inherit based on what we have achieved in mortal and spirit world existence.

:-)

We discuss to try and understand things better. At least I do. I am not nitpicking, but seek to understand and be understood. I also seek to try out my concepts, perhaps they will help someone.

I agree with most of your points above, and appreciate you setting them up. A few corrections: there was only ONE plan put forth, that of Heavenly Father's. The only option brought forth by Heavenly Father was "whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3). Who would be the Savior. At this point, Jesus said he would do the Father's will, and Satan offered himself with changes to the plan. God picked Jesus. We gave a sustaining vote to Christ being our Savior.

[rameumptom]

People are people

Angels are angels

Jesus is God

Acorrding to the Bible the last time I checked.

While this is true, you are missing some big points.

The term "angel" comes from the Greek word "angelos", "messenger." The Bible shows that angels come in a variety of forms, including human form. LDS teachings are that man, angels and gods are all the same family, just at different places in their development. Like an acorn grows up to be a tree, but does not resemble it whatsoever, we are enroute to becoming gods and angels. Yes, this is according to the Bible and other LDS scripture.

Speaking of a woman and her 7 husbands married for this earth's time only, Jesus explained the resurrection to those who didn't believe in it like this: 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22).

So, here we have humans as angels. Hmmmmm. Perhaps Rameumptom is onto something?

Jesus IS God. But we can become gods through Jesus as well: 16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our bspirit, that we are the cchildren of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.(Romans 8)

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods? " (John 10:34).

So, let's clear this up. Jesus is God, angels are angels, humans are humans AND humans are angels, humans are gods. Did I miss anything?

[JohnnyRudick]

While this is true, you are missing some big points.

The term "angel" comes from the Greek word "angelos", "messenger." The Bible shows that angels come in a variety of forms, including human form. LDS teachings are that man, angels and gods are all the same family, just at different places in their development. Like an acorn grows up to be a tree, but does not resemble it whatsoever, we are enroute to becoming gods and angels. Yes, this is according to the Bible and other LDS scripture.

Speaking of a woman and her 7 husbands married for this earth's time only, Jesus explained the resurrection to those who didn't believe in it like this: 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22).

So, here we have humans as angels. Hmmmmm. Perhaps Rameumptom is onto something?

Jesus IS God. But we can become gods through Jesus as well: 16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our bspirit, that we are the cchildren of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.(Romans 8)

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods? " (John 10:34).

So, let's clear this up. Jesus is God, angels are angels, humans are humans AND humans are angels, humans are gods. Did I miss anything?

Nope:)

Don't thinks so:rolleyes:

Cool wording, Thanks;)

Bro. Rudick

[Jim108]

While this is true, you are missing some big points.

The term "angel" comes from the Greek word "angelos", "messenger." The Bible shows that angels come in a variety of forms, including human form. LDS teachings are that man, angels and gods are all the same family, just at different places in their development. Like an acorn grows up to be a tree, but does not resemble it whatsoever, we are enroute to becoming gods and angels. Yes, this is according to the Bible and other LDS scripture.

Speaking of a woman and her 7 husbands married for this earth's time only, Jesus explained the resurrection to those who didn't believe in it like this: 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22).

So, here we have humans as angels. Hmmmmm. Perhaps Rameumptom is onto something?

Jesus IS God. But we can become gods through Jesus as well: 16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our bspirit, that we are the cchildren of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.(Romans 8)

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods? " (John 10:34).

So, let's clear this up. Jesus is God, angels are angels, humans are humans AND humans are angels, humans are gods. Did I miss anything?

OK, in a previous thread that I started many of you said that Jesus is a god but not the GOD. I can go back a get the quotes if you want. So above you say that Jesus is God. One more time. Is Jesus a god or is Jesus God. Just who is your god?

[Hemidakota]

Jesus = Jehovah = God [Lord]

FATHER = Elohim = GOD [LORD GOD]

[Justice]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Jehova. The Father has made precious few recored vistis to earth, usually only by voice (like at Jesus' baptism).

[Jim108]

OK, so then why do some LDS members believe that Jesus is a god and not the God. I could really use a lesson here.

[aj4u]

OK, so then why do some LDS members believe that Jesus is a god and not the God. I could really use a lesson here.

Jehovah Witnesses believe He is a god as well. The Watchtower Society is a cult!

[aj4u]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Jehova. The Father has made precious few recored vistis to earth, usually only by voice (like at Jesus' baptism).

I think I can buy this

[Hemidakota]

Getting back to the Kirtland Temple, it was only Jesus who actually made actual manifestation in person vice the FATHER.

A Vision of the Celestial Kingdom

The season of heavenly manifestations was inaugurated by the Prophet's vision of the Father and Son in the celestial glory. On the evening of 21 January 1836, about forty men entered the nearly completed Kirtland Temple. Although the outside plastering had been completed, workers were busy at that time plastering and painting the interior. While climbing the circular staircase, these bearers of the priesthood passed the second floor, which resembled the first with four tiers of pulpits on either end of the room. They continued to the third floor, an attic which had been divided into five classrooms. About sixteen of these men gathered in the west room, which was then being used as a classroom by students studying Hebrew. Accompanying Joseph Smith were his two counselors and his father (who was serving as patriarch), Hyrum Smith, the two bishoprics (one from Missouri and the other residing in Kirtland), and Joseph Smith's scribe, Warren Parrish. 8

After the Prophet had introduced one of the ordinances connected with the Kirtland endowment—the ordinance of anointing—Joseph Smith testified that "the heavens were opened upon us," and he "beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof." He saw the "blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and Son." He saw "the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold." He also saw in vision in the celestial kingdom "Father Adam and Abraham," his father (who was in the room at the time of the vision), his mother, his deceased brother, Alvin, and the twelve apostles who had been called in 1835 (D&C 137:1-5). Joseph further declared that his scribe saw some of the same heavenly beings who appeared to him.

Since Joseph Smith did not understand at that time the concept of salvation for the dead, the Prophet was perplexed when he saw his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom, for Alvin had died before the Church was fully organized. Therefore, during this vision the Prophet asked a question and received the initial revelation on this subject: all, including children, who would have accepted the gospel had they been granted such an opportunity are "heirs of the celestial kingdom of God" (D&C 137:7-10).

Before this remarkable series of visions ended, the high councils from Kirtland and Missouri entered the room, received their anointings, and were blessed with the ministering of angels. The Prophet added that while some of these leaders communed with holy angels, others "saw the face of the Savior" and the spirit of prophecy and revelation was poured out in mighty power. When Oliver Cowdery attempted to describe this unusual meeting, he wrote, the "glorious scene" was "too great to be described." "I only say," he added, "the heavens were opened to many, and great and marvelous things were shown." Studies in Scripture, Vol. 1: The Doctrine and Covenants, by Robert L. Millet, Kent P. Jackson

Then we have the manifestation of the Savior, Peter, James, and John:

The Savior Appears

As Jesus and his three Galilean apostles were transfigured anciently, so also were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery—"apostles, and especial witnesses" of the name of Christ (D&C 27:12)—transformed and made ready to see within the veil and receive divine direction and authority. Appropriately, Jesus the Lord appeared first. In ancient days Jehovah had chosen frequently to make his presence known and manifest his glory through a cloud which rested upon his temple. In modern times Jehovah came again to his temple—the first one worthy of his presence in many centuries—and in power and great glory (cf. Exod. 24:9-10; Rev. 1:14-15) accepted the offering of his people. This appearance was a realization of the promise given in 1833: "And inasmuch as my people build a house unto me in the name of the Lord, and do not suffer any unclean thing to come into it, that it be not defiled, my glory shall rest upon it; Yea, and my presence shall be there, for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God" (D&C 97:15-16).

After announcing that Joseph and Oliver were cleansed from sin, the Lord encouraged the brethren to rejoice in the occasion and to broaden their vision as to the importance of the Kirtland Temple: "Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house." Even though the Kirtland temple ceremonies were only a partial endowment (the full endowment would be revealed to the Prophet in Nauvoo in 1842), the keys and powers which were received on 3 April 1836 affect time and the eternities.

[Justice]

A cult is a group of people who share a common belief. I think you're trying to say "occult."

Christ and His followers were considered "occult" by both the world and by God's people (Jews).

John 10:

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

Mark 3:

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

[Justice]

I think I can buy this

Until I tell you they are different beings entirely. They are not part of some incomprehensible physical bond or make-up. They are one in purpose and will, but not person. Jehova (Jesus Christ) is the Son of the Father... literally the Son of God.

... just like the Bible says.

[Hemidakota]

Being a son of our FATHER: as you are by Spirit and through the blood of Adam. :)

[aj4u]

I understand that angels are messengers and that means angel. I also understand that people can be messengers as well. I also understand that angels have taken on human form, but that doesn't mean that man who was made in God's image is an angel. Angels are created spiritual beings only. They are not created flesh and blood as we are nor do we turn into angels. If you think that, you are in error not knowing the Scriptures. Angels are forces of energy that with God's permission change into human like beings, but they cannot and will not be judged like humans or treated the same. They cannot become the sons of God. They are strictly messengers. Human are more than just messengers. There is also no Biblical basis to believe that we once existed as spirit beings before birth. If we did, the Bible would say that explicitly and we would remember being in that state of existence. Too much human speculation is involved here making a doctrine out of misinformation which is very dangerous.

[the Ogre]

OK, in a previous thread that I started many of you said that Jesus is a god but not the GOD. I can go back a get the quotes if you want. So above you say that Jesus is God. One more time. Is Jesus a god or is Jesus God. Just who is your god?

Okay, for you to understand the LDS notion of G-d, you have to realize we deny the Nicene Creed, the trinity, and the concept of a triune god.

"Article of Faith #1: 1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

Read closely:

There is only one G-d. H- is our Father. H- is the Creator. H- has a body. H- IS a distinct individual the perfection of form, passion, experience, gender, and identity.

J-sus is H-s S-n. J-sus being separate from G-d does not stop him from being our Redeemer. That is who H- is. H-, J-sus, is also G-d, the executor of our H-avenly F-ther's will and our Redeemer. As the F-ther's executor, H- created the earth, the universe, everything, as per the F-ther's plan. H- has a body. H- is a man. H- is an individual.

The H-ly Gh-st is our Witness of J-sus and the Redemption. H- is also G-d, the witness and our guide. H- does not have a body. H- is a spirit individual with form, passion, experience, gender and identity, just no body.

All three of Th-m form the LDS concept of G-dhead. They are G-d.

We worship G-d the F-ther, in the name of J-sus Chr-st, the R-deemer.

Remember, the Nicene Creed has no foundation in scripture or revelation. It is based on the sandy-foundation of human philosophy.

(Sorry about all the dashes, it's out of respect for my Jewish ancestors who would prefer it that way . . . re: the ten commandments)

[Jim108]

Okay, for you to understand the LDS notion of G-d, you have to realize we deny the Nicene Creed, the trinity, and the concept of a triune god.

"Article of Faith #1: 1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

Read closely:

There is only one G-d. H- is our Father. H- is the Creator. H- has a body. H- IS a distinct individual the perfection of form, passion, experience, gender, and identity.

J-sus is H-s S-n. J-sus being separate from G-d does not stop him from being our Redeemer. That is who H- is. H-, J-sus, is also G-d, the executor of our H-avenly F-ther's will and our Redeemer. As the F-ther's executor, H- created the earth, the universe, everything, as per the F-ther's plan. H- has a body. H- is a man. H- is an individual.

The H-ly Gh-st is our Witness of J-sus and the Redemption. H- is also G-d, the witness and our guide. H- does not have a body. H- is a spirit individual with form, passion, experience, gender and identity, just no body.

All three of Th-m form the LDS concept of G-dhead. They are G-d.

We worship G-d the F-ther, in the name of J-sus Chr-st, the R-deemer.

Remember, the Nicene Creed has no foundation in scripture or revelation. It is based on the sandy-foundation of human philosophy.

(Sorry about all the dashes, it's out of respect for my Jewish ancestors who would prefer it that way . . . re: the ten commandments)

Thank you, it is very complicated and I respect your view.

[Dravin]

*Angels are forces of energy that with God's permission change into human like beings, but they cannot and will not be judged like humans or treated the same. They cannot become the sons of God. They are strictly messengers. Human are more than just messengers. There is also no Biblical basis to believe that we once existed as spirit beings before birth. If we did, the Bible would say that explicitly and we would remember being in that state of existence. Too much human speculation is involved here making a doctrine out of misinformation which is very dangerous.

Quite, I appreciate you examples of such.

[Justice]

I understand that angels are messengers and that means angel. I also understand that people can be messengers as well. I also understand that angels have taken on human form, but that doesn't mean that man who was made in God's image is an angel. Angels are created spiritual beings only. They are not created flesh and blood as we are nor do we turn into angels. If you think that, you are in error not knowing the Scriptures. Angels are forces of energy that with God's permission change into human like beings, but they cannot and will not be judged like humans or treated the same. They cannot become the sons of God. They are strictly messengers. Human are more than just messengers. There is also no Biblical basis to believe that we once existed as spirit beings before birth. If we did, the Bible would say that explicitly and we would remember being in that state of existence. Too much human speculation is involved here making a doctrine out of misinformation which is very dangerous.

First, I'd like to see your sources for your statements about angels, men, and God.

Then, I'd like to see your sources that state man was not alive as spirits before he came here.

Then, I'd like to hear your opinion as to what physical death is.

[aj4u]

Love and Charity are not the same things..

I know some see charity as giving. It CAN mean both we can compromise on this. It is written, "Now abides faith hope and charity the greatest of these is charity." Why? because it means Love!

Anyway, we can compromise that it means love as well...

I quoted scripture word for word and you found a way to disagree with me.

Matthew 7:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I don't get why you seem to just want to disagree with me..

I wasn't disagreeing with the Scripture; it was the contex you were using it in.

It wasn't me that said by their fruit you will know them, it was Christ. All I did was quote Him and ask you if this David guy didn't have fruit of the Gospel. I didn't know him, you did and you left his church realizing he was a false prophet. It seemed like an innocent question.

I know. I don't disagree with everything you say! Oh, I understand now- my mistake, I thought you were referring to King David and his sin with Bathsheba. Please use his last name for clarification. I wasn't sticking up for David Berg, but I was for King David! My gosh, in that case, I do agree with you YES Edited May 15, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

Thank you, it is very complicated and I respect your view.

If it is complicated, that is my fault. I apologize.

Like I said though, we deny the Nicine Creed. That is the most difficult part I think.

BTW: we deny the common concepts of Heaven and Hell as well, so I guess you are wandering through new territory altogether, huh?

How about this one: boiled down, after the resurrection, we are still just people. People with goals, aspirations, hopes, dreams, and jobs to do. People with bodies (I wonder if we'll still itch?).

Harps and clouds??? Bah! Who wants them. Give me a rake any day. I'm sure the leaves will still fall in the autumn.