Believe, Works, and Faith

[the Ogre]

You are attacking the Bible and what I believe but that is fine.

No, I said I am dealing with your methodologies. Your inability to dialogue intelligently or honestly. I have not attacked your beliefs, only lightly touched on LDS doctrine. I dealt with your beliefs rarely: "From reading what you are writing, I can tell you do not understand parts of the NT like most mainstream Chr-stians, not to mention how Latter-day Saints understand them" and in-reference to your understanding of John 1.1.

. . . lets look at this research. I think it is significant . . .

I looked at what you just wrote and can see you are not interested in honest dialogue . . . so, lets not look further. I'll leave it to the several amateur/hobby-apologists on this site.

I am not interested in posting like Earnie the thousands of links outlining the research you obviously need regarding Protestant and secular doubts about the Bible, particularly Paul.

Regarding the scripture blob you wrote, more cliched anti- bilge. I am not interested at all. Converse with yourself, that is all you are interested in. You have yet to illustrate an honest interest in true conversation ("eternal souls", oh my head).

Oooo . . . have you ever heard of the JST?

Edited May 20, 2009 by the Ogre

[bytor2112]

AJ....here is an interesting read regarding the examples you posted. Click here. And click here.

[Justice]

I didn't look at any anti - Mormon site. I am now looking at the book of Mormon comparing and contrasting it with Scriptures and history.

We know this isn't true because the Book of Mormon doesn't contain any of the stuff you mentioned.

[Justice]

Well, aj4u, I thought you were sincere. But, your last several posts have showed me you are not.

Thanks for the support, Ogre. I don't pretend to be an apologist, nor do I want to be. What you see is what you get. My only motive is to help.

[the Ogre]

Well, aj4u, I thought you were sincere. But, your last several posts have showed me you are not.

Thanks for the support, Ogre. I don't pretend to be an apologist, nor do I want to be. What you see is what you get. My only motive is to help.

No problem dude, it was after reading some of your posts that I decided to "Ogre" the thread.

[aj4u]

We know this isn't true because the Book of Mormon doesn't contain any of the stuff you mentioned.

I went to bookofMormononline.net What do you mean it is not mentioned. I gave the references. I saw it with my own eyes. I do not lie about stuff like this or play games. Look up the references in 2&3 Nephi that I posted. Look at the prophecy on the bottom of what I posted. I am going to double check myself. I was careful.

[the Ogre]

I went to bookofMormononline.net What do you mean it is not mentioned. I gave the references. I saw it with my own eyes. I do not lie about stuff like this or play games. Look up the references in 2&3 Nephi that I posted. Look at the prophecy on the bottom of what I posted. I am going to double check myself. I was careful.

Sorry, no credibility in this post.

Next time go here.

[aj4u]

2Nephi 14:5And the Lord will create upon every dwelling–place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for upon all the glory of Zion shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and a covert from storm and from rain.

Parable of the Viney ard

[Islander]

I went to bookofMormononline.net What do you mean it is not mentioned. I gave the references. I saw it with my own eyes. I do not lie about stuff like this or play games. Look up the references in 2&3 Nephi that I posted. Look at the prophecy on the bottom of what I posted. I am going to double check myself. I was careful.

AJ:

Rather than this endless and pointless argument, why don't you read the Book of Mormon and when you get to a scripture that you do not understand come and ask a specific question.

[the Ogre]

2Nephi 14:5And the Lord will create upon every dwelling–place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for upon all the glory of Zion shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and a covert from storm and from rain.

Parable of the Viney ard

Matt 20.11-16 . . . The Parable of the Vineyard

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Yup, this parable lies at the heart of LDS doctrine, but I doubt you know the how of it or even care?

The penny/denarius paid is the same. Put your shoulder to the wheel and be about it.

Edited May 20, 2009 by the Ogre

[aj4u]

3Nephi 11:33-34And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

[the Ogre]

3Nephi 11:33-34And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Okay . . . and, are you castigating us to . . . the firey hot place?

Oh my, I think you're upset.

BTW: when you're quoting that verse you are making an argument for works. Do you believe in works or grace?

[bytebear]

I think the error lies in the understanding of the word "damnation." The LDS Bible Dictionary defines it as such (emphasis mine):

As used in the KJV this word has a wider meaning than is at once apparent from modern usage. Damnation is the opposite of salvation, and exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and hence be damned to that extent. See Matt. 23: 14, 33; Mark 3: 29; Mark 16: 16; John 5: 29; Rom. 13: 2; 1 Cor. 11: 29; 2 Ne. 9: 24; 3 Ne. 18: 28-29; D&C 58: 26-29; D&C 84: 74; D&C 112: 29; D&C 132: 4, 6, 27.

Bible Dictionary: Damnation

[aj4u]

I am posting these verses because Justice said it wasn't in there. 3Nephi 11:36 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. Justice please take another look! It is all there as I mentioned. The writing in bold is an interpolation missing from all major NT manuscripts but present in the KJV only. The author of Nephi got it from the KJV.

2 Nephi 15:25 quotes word for word from KJV translation errors and all:Therefore,

is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people,

and he hath stretched forth his hand against them,

and hath smitten them;

and the hills did tremble,

and their carcasses were torn

in the midst of the streets. Torn is mistranslated; it should read refuse from the word suchah look

IS.5:25

Edited May 20, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

I think the error lies in the understanding of the word "damnation." The LDS Bible Dictionary defines it as such (emphasis mine):

I think you are right, but AJ refuses to acknowledge the Great Plan of Happiness. I asked him to look it up, but instead he started looking at anti- sites. Genius.

His definition of damnation involves charcoal and lighter fluid.

[the Ogre]

I am posting these verses because Justice said it wasn't in there.

To what end? To show him up? I don't think it was the actual scripture, but your application that is skewed. C'mon, comparing 2Ne 14.5 and the Parable of the Vineyard is a stretch (unless you are LDS and understand our thoughts regarding works).

BTW: Nephi was quoting Isaiah in that section referring to the last days. Nephi might have had a different text than do we (Laban's brass plates v. the KJV). So . . . what of it? Your quote is a perfect example of cliched anti- junk. Instead of looking for content, they attack the translation. The Dead Sea Scrolls were different than the KJV, too . . . so?

Edited May 20, 2009 by the Ogre

[the Ogre]

2 Nephi 15:25 quotes word for word from KJV translation errors and all:Therefore,

is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people,

and he hath stretched forth his hand against them,

and hath smitten them;

and the hills did tremble,

and their carcasses were torn

in the midst of the streets. Torn is mistranslated; it should read refuse from the word suchah look

IS.5:25

Nice edit.

Remember that thing about modern revelation (1)? Know: Nephi was quoting a different text than did the KJV translators (2). What you are doing is a classic, tried and true, and very cliche anti- ploy (3) (didn't you read bytor's post? C'mon keep up).

Points 1, 2, & 3 prove exactly what I said earlier about you not paying attention or being an honest discursive partner.

[aj4u]

We know this isn't true because the Book of Mormon doesn't contain any of the stuff you mentioned.

Read carefully I looked it up and quoted the verses individually:

1 Jn 5: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. This verse is an interpolation in the King James Version that is not in all major manuscripts of the New Testament, but it appears as a paraphrase in 3Nephi 11: 27, 36. So I can tell that the author read the Bible and got information from the KJV. In 2 Nephi 14:5 follows a translation error in KJV (Is. 4:5) “For upon all the glory shall be a defense” Modern translation renders it as it should be “For upon all the glory shall be a canopy” not a defense. The Hebrew word is “chuppah.” 3 Nephi 11:33-34 is almost a direct quote from Mark 16:16. This verse in the KJV is regarded by many Greek scholars as the writings of an over zealous scribe. In Acts 3, Peter paraphrases Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The author of 3 Nephi puts Peter’s classic paraphrased sermon in the mouth of Christ when the Savior was preaching to the Nephites. The problem is at the time Christ was preaching His sermon, the sermon hadn’t yet been preached by Peter. In addition to this, 3 Nephi in verse 23 chap 20 we find Christ attributes Peter’s paraphrased word to Moses as a direct quotation. This makes Christ out to be a liar. The wording is different but the author of 3 Nephi didn’t check back far enough to catch that. The Revised Standard Version renders Is.5:25 correctly “And their corpses were as refuse”…(suchah) not torn. KJV renders it “And their corpses were torn…” 2 Nephi 15:25 follows the KJV translation error. Can you explain this to me? Or will you just continue to call me a troll for not coming up with something different. I consider these fair points for discussion. After all we are dealing with our eternal souls. We are all in God’s business watching for one another in the love of Christ. What if someone is trying to do to you what has been done to me? I couldn’t live with myself knowing I didn’t try to show that there is that possibility. You at least owe it to yourself to check it out. Did it occur to you that God put me here for this reason?

Acts 3: 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Nephi

Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying:

“A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.”

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

D&C section 87 “… At the rebellion of South Carolina…the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain… and then war shall be poured out upon all nations… And…Slaves shall rise up against their masters…and that the remnants…shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.”

Though the Civil war broke out after 1844, England did not get involved nor were all nations as prophesied. The slaves didn’t rise up against their masters as stated in the prophecy and the remnants the Indians were themselves vexed by the Gentiles, being defeated only to be placed and confined to reservations.

These things appear to go beyond paraphrasing and into plagiarisms from the KJV and unfilled or not possible to fufill prophecy.

Edited May 20, 2009 by aj4u

[the Ogre]

Read carefully I looked it up and quoted the verses individually . . .

So, make a point.

[aj4u]

nite nite

[Justice]

I am posting these verses because Justice said it wasn't in there.

That's not what I meant.

Where did you read about the Adam-God theory? Show me the verse in the Book of Mormon.

Yeah, thought so.

...moving on.

[aj4u]

That's not what I meant.

Where did you read about the Adam-God theory? Show me the verse in the Book of Mormon.

Yeah, thought so.

...moving on.

I didn't say I got that from the Book of Mormon, I said the Brigham Young in Journal of Discources vol 1 .p 50:o

[Islander]

nite nite

AJ:

You just discredited yourself. You just got to the site under the claim of trying to sincerely inquire and learn. And you come out guns blazing quoting 2 Ne, D&C and the Journal of Discourses?

Dude, I am a convert, I was an investigator, I spent years looking for a church, reading, researching in 4 languages and it took me a very long time to get to the details. Your story is just not credible. I sincerely wish you well but I am done.

[the Ogre]

AJ:

You just discredited yourself. You just got to the site under the claim of trying to sincerely inquire and learn. And you come out guns blazing quoting 2 Ne, D&C and the Journal of Discourses?

Dude, I am a convert, I was an investigator, I spent years looking for a church, reading, researching in 4 languages and it took me a very long time to get to the details. Your story is just not credible. I sincerely wish you well but I am done.

Like I said, AJ is a troll.

[mikbone]

So? There might be an end to this charade?

After 35 pages?