What comes first, faith or hope?

[Justice]

I hesitate to equate works to ordinances because when I do it usually causes a ruckus, so I usually just keep that one to myself.

Thank you for bringing it up, Ogre.

We know ordinances (works) are necessary. I believe this is the heart of the scripture that states we cannot be saved in ignorance. Just because one does not believe they need to be baptized does not mean they don't need to be. The same goes for the rest of the ordinances.

[the Ogre]

This is a sub-set of BORN-AGAIN and CHANGE OF CHARACTER...

Hmmmmm . . . I thought about that Hemi, but I don't buy it. I think it is a precursor to either.

As an insight, I think a Gantt Chart with Conversion/Born-again/Change of Character being the median line. Some of these factors we are discussing would start and end before and after this median. Some can only come after the median line (works/ordinances).

I am complicating the process because the question nor the answer is linear.

[the Ogre]

not linear - perhaps it is circular.... one eternal round :)

I think you are absolutely correct for parts of it, but not all.

Very cool answer though.

[martybess]

Hi Marty!!!

For me faith came before hope - faith that God exists, that it is all real came long before I gained a better testimony of the atonement....

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe

(New Testament | James 2:19)

There is belief that God exists... then there is hope that you personally can fit into the big picture somehow.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, (this is the faith part, knowing it is real etc.) my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 4:17)

the above type of thing, shown God, that He exists, then shown ourselves... long process between being shown ourselves, and gaining hope that salvation comes to the "wretched".

Hey Changed!

But would you say that you first hoped there was a God and then came to believe there was a God?

What's up with your email address? Kicks emails back to me??

-Marty

Edited May 22, 2009 by martybess

[martybess]

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

Orge,

Where would you put "broken heart & contrite spirit"?

[martybess]

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

Orge,

Where would you put "broken heart & contrite spirit"? Would come after hope and before faith? Is not being born again being meek or have a broken heart?

DESIRE --> HOPE --> FAITH --> BORN AGAIN / CHARACTER CHANGE / --> CHARITY --> EXAMPLE/ENDURING/GOD's WILL --> KNOWLEDGE

[the Ogre]

Still missing "broken heart & contrite spirit", the L-rd says it has to be there. I also do not buy the idea of "works" only if you believe in it. We're Latter-day Saints; "works/ordinances" are important.

Orge,

Where would you put "broken heart & contrite spirit"? Would come after hope and before faith? Is not being born again being meek or have a broken heart?

DESIRE --> HOPE --> FAITH --> BORN AGAIN / CHARACTER CHANGE / --> CHARITY --> EXAMPLE/ENDURING/GOD's WILL --> KNOWLEDGE

Marty:

I think BH/CS overlaps the entire formula, just like some parts overlap others. Charity is just not a step. THis is why I recommend a Gantt Chart.

[martybess]

not linear - perhaps it is circular.... one eternal round :)

Excellent Changed! As Hemi noted “HOPE is used to gain further groweth with faith"

Hearing leads to hope.

Hope leads to faith.

Faith gives greater hope.

I think it can go both ways or cycle back around as you have mentioned!!

[Either 12:4]

"Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God."

Could not there be a cycle of “desire --> hope --> faith -->back to hope” go on a while before moving onto “charity --> example/enduring/god's will --> knowledge” as it states in Ether?

[martybess]

Orge,

Would you say everything overlaps really. When one increases they all increase?

[martybess]

Marty:

I think BH/CS overlaps the entire formula, just like some parts overlap others. Charity is just not a step. THis is why I recommend a Gantt Chart.

Agree on the overlap, great stuff! I like the circle, it sounds cool! LOL

[martybess]

I'm going to go over this post a few times and try to commit to memory the great insights here!!!

[Hemidakota]

While attending a class, I redraw out the seven steps and under it, apply what belongs to the FIRST COMFORTER and what belongs to the SECOND COMFORTER. Hard part with any class, when bored do not doodle. I was even drawing and working on a MOSFET transistor replacement [Neural three state memory transistor].

All key steps do overlap and does a 'goto' [for those programmers] from one step to another.

[Kenny]

I've never doubted there was a God or that Jesus was the Christ it was understanding what I believed that was the problem. I can never recollect ever hoping what I believed to be true was right. My understanding of God and Jesus was wrong it turned out but my belief in them wasn't.

There has been countless lesson in church regarding hope and from these lesson I learned most people's hope is on the 'I hope that' instead of 'hope in', can you see the differance? one hopes with doubt the other hopes in belief. one might the other is assured.

If you are constructing a skyscaper you do so with proven methods you don't hope it will stand up in a strong wind.

The same is with God we don't have to hope the plan of salvation works for us we just have follow the proven methods God has laid out for us.

The one difference is that with us we cannot sign off the work when it is done like a building all we can do is present our work to the Lord and leave it to His grace. But remember he loves us despite how far we fall short so we don't have hope our best is good enough just accept He knows best and will judge us correctly.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Kenny

[Justice]

Sometimes a little term definition can help discussions such as these.

BD Faith

Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11: 1; Alma 32: 21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone. The Lord has revealed himself and his perfect character, possessing in their fulness all the attributes of love, knowledge, justice, mercy, unchangeableness, power, and every other needful thing, so as to enable the mind of man to place confidence in him without reservation. Faith is kindled by hearing the testimony of those who have faith (Rom. 10: 14-17). Miracles do not produce faith but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ; in other words, faith comes by righteousness, although miracles often confirm one’s faith.

All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results. Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more than belief, since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical and mental action; it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the things hoped for. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.

GS Hope

The confident expectation of and longing for the promised blessings of righteousness. The scriptures often speak of hope as anticipation of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

Blessed is the man whose hope the Lord is, Jer. 17: 7. The Lord will be the hope of his people, Joel 3: 16. We have hope through patience and the scriptures, Rom. 15: 4. God hath begotten us unto a lively hope in the resurrection of Christ, 1 Pet. 1: 3. Every man that hath this hope purifieth himself, 1 Jn. 3: 2-3. Ye must press forward, having a perfect brightness of hope, 2 Ne. 31: 20. See that ye have faith, hope, and charity, Alma 7: 24 (1 Cor. 13: 13; Moro. 10: 20). I wish that ye would hearken unto my words, having a hope that ye shall receive eternal life, Alma 13: 27-29. If ye have faith, ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true, Alma 32: 21 (Heb. 11: 1). Hope comes of faith and maketh an anchor to the soul, Ether 12: 4 (Heb. 6: 17-19). Man must hope or he cannot receive an inheritance, Ether 12: 32. Mormon spoke concerning faith, hope, and charity, Moro. 7: 1. Ye shall hope through the atonement of Jesus Christ to be raised to eternal life, Moro. 7: 40-43. The Holy Ghost fills you with hope, Moro. 8: 26 (Rom. 15: 13). They departed mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, D&C 138: 14.

It's still interesting to me how hope seems to come before and after every step. I guess I never thought about it that way, but it seems if one is to take any step they need to at least have hope in what results that step will bring or there will be no faith to take that step.

[Guest missingsomething]

What comes first, faith or hope?

Does faith bring hope or hope bring faith?

Marty_____________________________

Ok im answering before I read any replies so I am not swayed :)

I believe one must have a little hope for the future - for something bigger than ourselves. I think this general feeling breads faith but see... faith isnt dependent on hope.

Nice question!

[Justice]

missingsomething, are you saying one can be obedient (or choose righteously) just because it's a commandment, and not necessarily because of a hope for the future (reward)?

I'm not sure what definition of the word dependant you were thinking of. I'm leaning toward hope being necessary to have faith, but that hope also comes after faith... a greater hope because it's founded in faith in Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what to think of obedience just for obedience sake. I'll have to ponder on that. I think I am driven by hope, but I'm sure others can be driven just by the will to be obedient... maybe like a child?

[Kenny]

I'm beginning to wonder if what I am saying is being misread because the replies I get only confirm what I've been saying but imply that perhaps I don't understand.

Before I joined the church my knowledge of Christ was fanciful base not on acquired knowledge but the traditions passed down. Nevertheless I truly believed God was there, answered prayers and generally blessed the faithful.

After joining the church and reading the Book of Mormon my second novel was Jesus the Christ. This book sorted out the fancy ideas that were the basis of my understanding.

It was from this book that my faith in Jesus Christ became based on a firm foundation not the wishy-washy base it was on before.

Hope then became the fortifying force of my testimony because I knew for a surety that God was a living, breathing being and that His Son Jesus Christ was right there with him.

But this understanding did not mean I had faith any way near a mustard seed rather a clear path how to develop that faith.

Priesthood blessing did bring some remarkable outcomes but also some realisations that sometimes the blessing I gave were not always want the Lord wanted.

You see true faith is being one with the Lord in all things something that most of us are trying to achieve but are no way near.

So yes while faith in God begins the process it is hope that true faith is built upon because there can be no wavering in these matters.

[rameumptom]

I think as LDS we need to redraw the lines on what the term "salvation" means. For many decades, LDS, including General Authorities, equated it to exaltation. When I joined in 1975, I seriously believed from the writings and talks given at that time, that I had to earn my salvation or rot in hell (or one of the lower kingdoms of glory, which were usually taught as hell junior).

Given I've read the Book of Mormon over 70 times now, and the other scriptures almost as much, I've learned to reject those older teachings. It isn't that they were wrong, but that there is a more correct view that is actually taught in the scriptures.

All are saved in Christ, except for the sons of perdition (who are individuals who totally become Christ's enemy and embrace total darkness). All others are resurrected AND brought back into the presence of God (Alma 11, Mormon 9, etc). If I live a perfect life, without the atonement, I would still become an angel to the Devil, according to the BoM.

Alma suffered for three days and nights because of his sins. What did it take to be saved? He had to turn to Christ and forsake his sins. Immediately, because of the change of heart he had and his newly found faith, he was saved from eternal hell/outer darkness. Outer Darkness is used to induce us to humility, so that we may repent. Alma stated that such works, but it is better to be humble without being compelled (Alma 32), obviously referring to his own experience. Once he repented and called on Christ in faith, there were no discussions on whether he had done enough repenting, had done restitution, had enough faith, or had obeyed any laws whatsoever. He was healed. He saw Lehi standing with God. Alma had been brought into the presence of God.

Now, the key is that our works do not save us. Our works can and may display our level of faith. Works without faith is dead. Our works must display our faith, or they are not works of righteousness. Jesus condemned those who did works, but not in His way, requiring faith in Christ first. Or, as Alma mentions, even a desire to believe (Alma 32).

The Telestial Kingdom IS heaven. People there will NOT be sad because they didn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Why not? Because they will already have been in God's presence (Alma 11, Mormon 9) and will find that they cannot abide his glory. Instead, the glory they receive will be perfect for them, and they will be happy with it, whereas they would be miserable elsewhere (Mormon 9:3-4).

We are saved by faith into a heaven. Our works, when based on our faith, increase our faith and change us. We become more godly, and more able to stand in God's presence. It is then that our confidence waxes strong in the presence of God (D&C 121) and the doctrine of the priesthood distills upon us as the dews of heaven, and the Holy Ghost becomes our constant companion (as a member of the Godhead, we are in His presence).

This is what the gospel ACTUALLY tells us. To explain it with 1970s LDS terms is to skew what the scriptures really state concerning all of this.

[Justice]

Works without faith is dead.

Did you intentionally flop faith and works here? Are you testing us? :)

Are you trying to make a point by switching them?

[martybess]

While attending a class, I redraw out the seven steps and under it, apply what belongs to the FIRST COMFORTER and what belongs to the SECOND COMFORTER. Hard part with any class, when bored do not doodle. I was even drawing and working on a MOSFET transistor replacement [Neural three state memory transistor].

All key steps do overlap and does a 'goto' [for those programmers] from one step to another.

Lets see your sketch Hemi!

[Justice]

I found this quote from Elder Christofferson while preparing for my lesson today:

Jesus explained what it means to believe in Him: “Now this is the commandment [or in other words, this is the covenant]: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day” (3 Nephi 27:20).

I'm so very thankful for this quote. In a Christian world where people seem to think "believe" simply means to internalize Christ and profess they think He is God. It is refreshing to see that belief in Christ requires one to be filled with the desire to keep His commandments, and then do. I love the Book of Mormon, and I love our General Authorities. I know the true nature of our Lord Jesus Christ is taught by both.

[Justice]

Doctrine & Covenants 58:

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

I have been pondering heavily about agency over the last several months. I am so thankful for modern scripture that refutes the notions that men do not have agency, and must be acted upon by the Spirit of God to do good.

It is true, without the revelations and truths given to us by God we would not know how to act or what to do. But, thanks be to God that He did give us His Word and commandments, that we should know what to do. He has also given to us a portion of His Spirit to help us move and act righteously. Without which it would be impossible for man to even know what to do, much less do it.

But, to know we can act and not be acted upon is the basis of our God-given agency. I'm thankful to know the truth about the creation, fall, and atonement, and how our agency allows us to be given power from God to act righteously of our own free will.