Why some men are not saved?

[Guest]

Aesa, thank you for responding. My question to you is, did God give us the criteria He will use to judge us by? Or, do you believe we go into judgement blind, hoping for a good result?

Thank you for your comments, PC. That is one of my favorite scriptures on the topic.

anatess, the comment you made that stood out to me was this:

We were taught in Catholic school that if we just believe in Christ we attain eternal life... comes from the scripture "whosoever believeth in Him shalt not perish...". Because, the assumption was that once you have faith in Christ, there is but one conclusion and that is that you will do good works.

The Book of Mormon repeats this teaching that all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ.

Helaman 14:

8 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall believe on the Son of God, the same shall have everlasting life.

But, it also goes on to clarify what it means by "believe."

Helaman 14:

13 And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.

So, he clarifies that there is more intended in the word believe than "just" believe. It is something that drives you to something, like in your comment:

there is but one conclusion and that is that you will do good works.

This is the part I'd like to discuss. I wonder if all who believe in Christ will produce good works.

James 2:

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This scripture seems to be implying that just because someone believes in Christ, they won't necessarily produce faith or good works.

What is your comment to this line of thinking?

Justice, one big reason why I'm not Catholic anymore is because the Catholics have a very vague answer to what happens when somebody dies before hearing the gospel, or they die before they get baptized.

I truly believe that ordinances is an essential part to everlasting happiness. So, okay, I say I believe in Christ, even to the point of doing good works. But, I really believe that without the saving ordinances, everlasting happiness is not mine to attain! So, in those scriptures that you quoted, I can add that even when we have faith in Christ leading us to do good works, without the saving ordinances from the proper authority, it is still not complete.

In all my Catholic teachings, they consider people who dies without having been baptized as going to purgatory. My understanding is the only way you get out of purgatory is through prayer intercessions (having somebody pray for you - they even have cloistered nuns who do nothing but pray for souls). Purgatory is not a happy-joy-joy place. And that is why they baptize babies as soon as they are born... because they might die before getting baptized. And, you can't get Catholic burial even if you haven't been baptized - even if you died 2 days after birth and didn't get a chance for baptism.

But see, I asked a priest once, so, let's say some really good person who sacrificed his life for the benefit of others, but is buddhist, and died a buddhist... what happens to him? And I was told that he could have a short stint in purgatory and go on straight to heaven. So, I ask... why do we need baptism then, if everybody can still go to heaven without it?

Anyway, only the LDS faith has an answer to this one and that is one of the reasons I'm LDS now.

So, after all this long posting... there is surely more than just "believe in Christ" at play here - first the faith, then the works, then the ordinances. Yes?

[JohnnyRudick]

The Only Souls not saved are those that go to Outer Darkness

There will be those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as taught by Paul in the New Testament who will live in a natural state of being.

They will not receive the same state of glory as those who have lived the Dispensation as given to Paul.

These people (so called good people, just godless:huh:) living during the Millennium will taste death.

Why? Because this is still the natural Earth and has not yet been purified.

Yeah, I have never figured out why so many get this backwards either.

Bro. Rudick

[Justice]

... there is surely more than just "believe in Christ" at play here - first the faith, then the works, then the ordinances. Yes?

Yes. :)

Or, it could be as I have said all along, that there is more to the "believe" as used in the New Testament? Can one claim to believe in Christ if they are unwilling to do as He asks, or if they do not believe they have to?

I don't see how anyone can claim to believe in Christ and claim "we don't have to do what He says." I think they are too fearful of saying "we have to do what He says [works]" because they equate that to "adding to His works." But, His works are different than ours. You don't have to view it as adding to His. His were for a different purpose. The Bible is very clear on this. It is interesting that this particular thing is so misunderstood.

One poster here even said "It is a lie from Satan that we have to keep Christ's commandments to be saved." Why in the world would Satan tempt you to keep Christ's commandments?

It all comes back to how you understand the word believe as meant in the New Testament. Fortunately we have the Book of Mormon to clarify.

Thank you for responding.

[Justice]

Johnny, I believe all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and there will be no death during the Millennium. When Christ comes, the earth will return to its state as before the fall.

GS New Jerusalem

The place where the Saints will gather and Christ will personally reign with them during the Millennium. Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent, and the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory (A of F 1: 10). It also refers to a holy city that will come down out of heaven at the beginning of the Millennium.

GS Millennium

People will not lift up sword, neither learn war any more, Isa. 2: 4 (2 Ne. 12: 4; Micah 4: 3). Land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden, Ezek. 36: 35. They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, Rev. 20: 4. Because of righteousness, Satan has no power, 1 Ne. 22: 26. I will dwell in righteousness on earth a thousand years, D&C 29: 11. When the thousand years are ended, I will spare the earth for a little season, D&C 29: 22. The great Millennium shall come, D&C 43: 30. Children of the righteous will grow up without sin, D&C 45: 58. Children shall grow up until they become old; men shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, D&C 63: 51. In the beginning of the seventh thousand years, the Lord will sanctify the earth, D&C 77: 12. They live not again until the thousand years are ended, D&C 88: 101. Satan shall be bound for a thousand years, D&C 88: 110. The Millennium is described, D&C 101: 23-34. For a thousand years the earth shall rest, Moses 7: 64.

[JohnnyRudick]

Johnny, I believe all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and there will be no death during the Millennium. When Christ comes, the earth will return to its state as before the fall.

GS New Jerusalem

The place where the Saints will gather and Christ will personally reign with them during the Millennium. Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent, and the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory (A of F 1: 10). It also refers to a holy city that will come down out of heaven at the beginning of the Millennium.

GS Millennium

People will not lift up sword, neither learn war any more, Isa. 2: 4 (2 Ne. 12: 4; Micah 4: 3). Land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden, Ezek. 36: 35. They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, Rev. 20: 4. Because of righteousness, Satan has no power, 1 Ne. 22: 26. I will dwell in righteousness on earth a thousand years, D&C 29: 11. When the thousand years are ended, I will spare the earth for a little season, D&C 29: 22. The great Millennium shall come, D&C 43: 30. Children of the righteous will grow up without sin, D&C 45: 58. Children shall grow up until they become old; men shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, D&C 63: 51. In the beginning of the seventh thousand years, the Lord will sanctify the earth, D&C 77: 12. They live not again until the thousand years are ended, D&C 88: 101. Satan shall be bound for a thousand years, D&C 88: 110. The Millennium is described, D&C 101: 23-34. For a thousand years the earth shall rest, Moses 7: 64.

I have studied these Scriptures as well and have in the beginning believed as you but in later years come to believe the context is God's people.

I could still be wrong.

It is just the impression I have come to accept over time of study of the Scriptures.

Bro. Rudick

[Justice]

Well, there will be a big destruction of the wicked before His coming. All that are left will be "more righteous." So, maybe that's the common ground?

[JohnnyRudick]

Well, there will be a big destruction of the wicked before His coming. All that are left will be "more righteous." So, maybe that's the common ground?

The following is in sequence with the Earth being prepared for the 1000 year Reign of The Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, The Bride of Christ.

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four

beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne,

saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying,

Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both

small and great.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great

multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of

mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent

reigneth.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to

him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made

herself ready.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be

arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the

righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they

which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he

saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he

said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of

thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The Pre-Millennial appearing of the Lord that the wicked will not relish to see and take part in.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white

horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and

in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his

head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man

knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in

blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed

him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that

with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with

a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness

and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a

name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he

cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the

midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the

supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the

flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of

horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men,

both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the

earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against

him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The Wicked Perditional leader of the World removed from the Sean.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the

false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he

deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them

that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake

of fire burning with brimstone.

The Lord now turns on the active followers and armies of this demon in flesh.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of

him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his

mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Then the Big Honcho is taken care of.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven,

having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his

hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old

serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand

years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut

him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the

nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and

after that he must be loosed a little season.

Now the Lord puts on a different face and takes care of His own.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and

judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that

were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their

hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now the followers of that wicked one.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the

wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your

sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your

sins.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only

begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn

the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he

that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not

believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until

the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those spoken of in "John" will have no part of the first resurrection and take part in the 1000 year reign who have died up to this point.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the

first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but

they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with

him a thousand years.

But there will be those born during this time and many will not live a life of virtue and yet will inhabit the kingdoms throughout the earth

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that

is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall

even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of

hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of

all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King,

the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

There are many verses of judgments being passed out on individuals during this reign throughout Scripture as a thousand years is a long time to accumulate wicked persons who shall be influenced by Satan when he is again unleashed to gather his that shall be born during this time.

But these will be destroyed at the end of the thousand years when the earth is reborn as they will be left here when the rest is lifted up during this process of rebirth but as I said, the rest will be left behind.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan

shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which

are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather

them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the

sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth,

and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into

the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false

prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and

ever.

Now when these people are destroyed and cast out this begins the time of the Second Death.

Now there is the time of the New Heaven and New Earth

Now attention is turned to those who take part in the Second Death.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that

sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;

and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand

before God; and the books were opened: and another book was

opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out

of those things which were written in the books, according to

their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and

they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of

fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the

book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the time that most people get confused with the millennium.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the

first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was

no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,

coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned

for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with

them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with

them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their

eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor

crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former

things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I

make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words

are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and

Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is

athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things;

and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the

abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and

idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which

burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels

which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and

talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride,

the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a

great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy

Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was

like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear

as crystal;

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve

gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,

which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of

Israel:

Revelation 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three

gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve

foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the

Lamb.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed

to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length

is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the

reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and

the height of it are equal.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred

and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man,

that is, of the angel.

Revelation 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of

jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Revelation 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city

were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first

foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a

chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

Revelation 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the

seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the

tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an

amethyst.

Revelation 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every

several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was

pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God

Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither

of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it,

and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall

walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring

their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all

by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of

the nations into it.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any

thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or

maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of

life.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life,

clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the

Lamb.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either

side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve

manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the

leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the

throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants

shall serve him:

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall

be in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they

need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth

them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful

and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to

shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that

keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them.

And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the

feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for

I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of

them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of

the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still:

and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is

righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let

him be holy still.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is

with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the

end, the first and the last.

Those in outer darkness will have no part in the New Heavens but within the New Heavens we will continue to devolope and search out New worlds and Life will go on.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;

God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath

established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be

inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,

that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in

through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and

whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth

and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto

you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring

of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And

let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the

words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto

these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written

in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words

of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of

the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things

which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely

I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

all. Amen.

Bro. Rudick

[Jim108]

The following is in sequence with the Earth being prepared for the 1000 year Reign of The Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, The Bride of Christ.

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four

beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne,

saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying,

Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both

small and great.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great

multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of

mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent

reigneth.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to

him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made

herself ready.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be

arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the

righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they

which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he

saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he

said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of

thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The Pre-Millennial appearing of the Lord that the wicked will not relish to see and take part in.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white

horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and

in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his

head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man

knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in

blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed

him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that

with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with

a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness

and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a

name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he

cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the

midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the

supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the

flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of

horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men,

both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the

earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against

him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The Wicked Perditional leader of the World removed from the Sean.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the

false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he

deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them

that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake

of fire burning with brimstone.

The Lord now turns on the active followers and armies of this demon in flesh.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of

him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his

mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Then the Big Honcho is taken care of.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven,

having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his

hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old

serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand

years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut

him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the

nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and

after that he must be loosed a little season.

Now the Lord puts on a different face and takes care of His own.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and

judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that

were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,

neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their

hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now the followers of that wicked one.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the

wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your

sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your

sins.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only

begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn

the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he

that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not

believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until

the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those spoken of in "John" will have no part of the first resurrection and take part in the 1000 year reign who have died up to this point.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the

first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but

they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with

him a thousand years.

But there will be those born during this time and many will not live a life of virtue and yet will inhabit the kingdoms throughout the earth

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that

is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall

even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of

hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of

all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King,

the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

There are many verses of judgments being passed out on individuals during this reign throughout Scripture as a thousand years is a long time to accumulate wicked persons who shall be influenced by Satan when he is again unleashed to gather his that shall be born during this time.

But these will be destroyed at the end of the thousand years when the earth is reborn as they will be left here when the rest is lifted up during this process of rebirth but as I said, the rest will be left behind.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan

shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which

are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather

them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the

sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth,

and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into

the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false

prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and

ever.

Now when these people are destroyed and cast out this begins the time of the Second Death.

Now there is the time of the New Heaven and New Earth

Now attention is turned to those who take part in the Second Death.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that

sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;

and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand

before God; and the books were opened: and another book was

opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out

of those things which were written in the books, according to

their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and

they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of

fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the

book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the time that most people get confused with the millennium.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the

first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was

no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem,

coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned

for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with

them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with

them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their

eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor

crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former

things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I

make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words

are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and

Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is

athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things;

and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the

abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and

idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which

burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels

which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and

talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride,

the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a

great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy

Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was

like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear

as crystal;

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve

gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,

which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of

Israel:

Revelation 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three

gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve

foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the

Lamb.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed

to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length

is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the

reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and

the height of it are equal.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred

and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man,

that is, of the angel.

Revelation 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of

jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Revelation 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city

were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first

foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a

chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

Revelation 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the

seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the

tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an

amethyst.

Revelation 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every

several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was

pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God

Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither

of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it,

and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall

walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring

their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all

by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of

the nations into it.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any

thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or

maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of

life.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life,

clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the

Lamb.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either

side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve

manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the

leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the

throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants

shall serve him:

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall

be in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they

need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth

them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful

and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to

shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that

keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them.

And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the

feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for

I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of

them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of

the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still:

and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is

righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let

him be holy still.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is

with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the

end, the first and the last.

Those in outer darkness will have no part in the New Heavens but within the New Heavens we will continue to devolope and search out New worlds and Life will go on.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;

God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath

established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be

inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,

that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in

through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and

whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth

and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto

you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring

of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And

let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the

words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto

these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written

in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words

of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of

the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things

which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely

I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

all. Amen.

Bro. Rudick

Bro. Rudick, this post most be a record for length. Way to go.

[JohnnyRudick]

Bro. Rudick, this post most be a record for length. Way to go.

,

[Carl62]

Thank You Justice for asking this question. I have been away so I did not see the post until now.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

What this means to me: When you confess your belief for Jesus you are saved and will have eternal life. The first time you pray to Jesus and state your belief in Him the spirit will enter you and you are now "born again". As you can see, this salvation is not dependent on any works other than belief. You are saved by grace and it is absolute.

So you say it is ABSOLUTE? I understand that works will follow as a result of your faith, but let's say a year after you're saved you backslide and fall back into sin, will you then still be saved? This for me is where the confusion starts, especially with the Evangelicals/Southern Baptists who believe in the "once saved/always saved" teaching. If this is not true, then where do Evagelicals/Baptists draw the line as to when you are saved, then not saved if you backslide? Can you then get re-saved again? I don't understand this teaching at all. Can somebody splain. Thanks.

[prisonchaplain]

So you say it is ABSOLUTE? I understand that works will follow as a result of your faith, but let's say a year after you're saved you backslide and fall back into sin, will you then still be saved? This for me is where the confusion starts, especially with the Evangelicals/Southern Baptists who believe in the "once saved/always saved" teaching. If this is not true, then where do Evagelicals/Baptists draw the line as to when you are saved, then not saved if you backslide? Can you then get re-saved again? I don't understand this teaching at all. Can somebody splain. Thanks.

Those who believe in "once saved always saved," would argue that the saved person is never unsaved. They cannot lose their salvation. If they fall back into sin, they are "backslidden." But, they will return to God. His grace is irresistable to the saved soul. This is by definition, so there's no point in asking, "But what if they die while backslideen?" Once saved, the doctrine goes, they will always be saved.

The greater challenge you issue may be to us who believe it is possible to fall from grace. Within this camp (mine, btw) there are those, like myself, who believe it's very difficult to lose salvation. We look to verses that speak of God going after us, even to the pits of hell. Others believe it is a danger that's very real, and look to verses that speak of working out our salvation daily, with fear and trembling.

In either case, we would say it is possible to recommit one's life to God, after falling away. However, if that fall from grace is deep, it may well have involved blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit's guidance is blasphemy--a hardening of the heart takes place, and the soul becomes damned.

How would one know if it was too late? When s/he doesn't care anymore! If the soul is convicted of sin and rebellion then it's not too late.

[Justice]

How would one know if it was too late? When s/he doesn't care anymore! If the soul is convicted of sin and rebellion then it's not too late.

I actually agree very much with this.

The problem is that when someone believes the Bible is the "complete" word of God (never claims to be) they believe the answer must be found there, even when it isn't. This is what has led to the belief that baptism must not be necessary, even though there is strong evidence in the Bible that it is. It causes some to twist one teaching in order to solve another problem, since the solution isn't given.

I don't know how people stay strong without the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is my anchor to understanding the Bible. Because of the Book of Mormon I see baptism is required, and see how God has allowed for those who never heard the name Jesus while in this life. The Bible alone is so very vague on the subject that, without the Book of Mormon, it's impossible to see it any other way.

However, with the Book of Mormon, I have a better understanding of the Biblical teaching about the ordinance of baptism and I understand God's plan for saving those who never had a chance to believe in Christ during this life.

With just the Bible it's very easy, even necessary, to believe baptism isn't required.

There really is no way to resolve this without believing the Book of Mormon is scripture also. That was going to be my point to aj4u.

[Hemidakota]

In either case, we would say it is possible to recommit one's life to God, after falling away. However, if that fall from grace is deep, it may well have involved blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit's guidance is blasphemy--a hardening of the heart takes place, and the soul becomes damned.

Depending on the person's sealing was done by the Holy Ghost and presented before the Godhead [had his/her election of calling made sure], if they have that ability to commit blasphemy against the Godhead.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

I don't know how people stay strong without the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is my anchor to understanding the Bible. Because of the Book of Mormon I see baptism is required, and see how God has allowed for those who never heard the name Jesus while in this life. The Bible alone is so very vague on the subject that, without the Book of Mormon, it's impossible to see it any other way.

Perhaps I am reading this wrong Justice. I can....you simply don't need a book to rely on to remain strong. By following the 'will' of the Godhead is the most important act in our life to accomplish. Everything else will fall in line with the effort in the mortal quest of divine truths.

It is grand to have a written record but fruitless if one does not apply its principles or doctrines. This is where some of my Muslim, Christians, and LDS brethren fail. When involve with any investigator, I don't have them pray over a book but to ask GOD if this church is HIS church and the only church approved upon this earth. The next question is to ask if the Prophet Joseph Smith was called by HIM and the only dispensational prophet called in the last days. We simply use the set of scriptures to study, research, pray over, and apply, from the past writers.

[JohnnyRudick]

Perhaps I am reading this wrong Justice. I can....you simply don't need a book to rely on to remain strong. By following the 'will' of the Godhead is the most important act in our life to accomplish. Everything else will fall in line with the effort in the mortal quest of divine truths.

It is grand to have a written record but fruitless if one does not apply its principles or doctrines. This is where some of my Muslim, Christians, and LDS brethren fail. When involve with any investigator, I don't have them pray over a book but to ask GOD if this church is HIS church and the only church approved upon this earth. The next question is to ask if the Prophet Joseph Smith was called by HIM and the only dispensational prophet called in the last days. We simply use the set of scriptures to study, research, pray over, and apply, from the past writers.

I agree Kota.

But it always has been and I suppose it always will be as far as the human eye can see that when the Lord reveals a truth to a Prophet, a Seer, A Revelator that the Word is written down that the world may know it.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord

shall be saved.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have

not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have

not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as

it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the

gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For

Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by

the word of God.

The "report" is written in a book.

Nephi knew this and tried to follow this truth.

As did all the Book of Mormon prophets.

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites--

Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile--

Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation--

Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed--

To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof--

Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord,

to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile--

The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

The written word is an indispensable part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Always has been.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand

before God; and the books were opened: and another book was

opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out

of those things which were written in the books, according to

their works.

Bro. Rudick

[ViolinGirl]

All men can be saved. They simply need to accept that Christ died for their sins. Man cannot be saved if he rejects Christ.

[Justice]

Perhaps I am reading this wrong Justice. I can....you simply don't need a book to rely on to remain strong. By following the 'will' of the Godhead is the most important act in our life to accomplish. Everything else will fall in line with the effort in the mortal quest of divine truths.

I guess what I mean is that if all we had was the Bible, in it's current condition, like most of the Christian world, how would you resolve doctrinal issues? Some people are satisfied with what is on the surface. I am not; I never have been, and by no choice of my own. It's clear you can't solve any matter by going to the Bible, Jospeh Smith even said so. So many different denominations interpret the Bible so differently, without the Book of Mormon (and everything that implies) it seems I would be in the same boat. It seems we would all be in the same boat in the waves being tossed to and fro.

It's just an odd way that I express my love and thankfulness for the Book of Mormon.

[Justice]

It is grand to have a written record but fruitless if one does not apply its principles or doctrines.

Thank you for this... I've been pondering over it.

There is much wisdom there.

[Justice]

Once saved, always saved does not imply you can be saved then act a fool.

It implies if you honor and keep your covenants then no power on earth or hell can remove your salvation.

It speaks of the conversion to Christ taught in scripture. If you continue in your conversion, you are surely saved. However, if you do not, you do not need a separate power in earth or hell, you have chosen to fall on your own (the only way it can be done).

Edited May 30, 2009 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

All men can be saved. They simply need to accept that Christ died for their sins. Man cannot be saved if he rejects Christ.

If that being the case, then I could sin anytime while believing in Christ.

[Hemidakota]

I agree Kota.

But it always has been and I suppose it always will be as far as the human eye can see that when the Lord reveals a truth to a Prophet, a Seer, A Revelator that the Word is written down that the world may know it.

Bro. Rudick

Correct..many Saints in the last days prior to the Lord's return will be privy to the many truths that are not had yet in the church. But are not allowed to be a written doctrine. I noticed in some circumstances where I had seen the verbiage in a Patriarchal Blessing where it states, "you will write scriptures...". Only few that I am aware have this ability or are allowed to record and write scriptures - namely Prophets and Apostles.

[ViolinGirl]

In reply to Hemidakota:

Christ died for all sinners in order to save them. When you accept Christ and become his follower, intentional sin should no longer be a part of your life. No human being, no matter how Christ-like, no matter what denomination, is without sin, but it's wonderful to know that we are forgiven and welcomed back to salvation each time we confess our shortcomings. If you willingly reject Christ (denounce him), then I believe you will not be saved.

Edited May 29, 2009 by ViolinGirl

[Hemidakota]

Dear Sister, I do know that very Christ as you mentioned so well, He does take the time in counseling me or perhaps, a scolding sessions [see the Brother of Jared account upon the mount], in reminding me of my duties and put away the sins.

I already know that I am saved; that came from the Godhead directly...something that you will not find in any other religion. Now, this doesn't preclude me from my 'fear and trembling" over my own salvation before our FATHER and His beloved Son. But, I have felt the true eternal love of the Godhead and the mercies they had given me for my rebelliousness and shortcomings.

Now, if I can impart anything to your my dearest sister, seek out the Godhead for a personal testimony...it will transform your own life that most will not know in this life.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Hemidakota

[ViolinGirl]

Hemi,

I do have a personal testimony and believe without a doubt that I have been saved. I was simply stating my opinion in response to the initial question on this thread. I felt I needed to clarify my response and did so. I meant no harm or critisism to you.

[Elena_Villanueva]

Most likely their actions were so horrendous that they couldn't be saved. But that's what i think.