Pondering the Deluge Model and finding the answer

[Hemidakota]

[Part-1] Something to ponder since this is a recurring question on different forums of what the earth looked like before and can easily answer the Noah question that most ponder over.

WHO IS SPEAKING HERE: [The Savior] authoritative source

D&C 133

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the Lord your God, and hear the word of the Lord concerning you—

2 The Lord who shall suddenly come to his temple; the Lord who shall come down upon the world with a curse to judgment; yea, upon all the nations that forget God, and upon all the ungodly among you.

MODEL OF THE EARTH: the answer

D&C 133

17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—

18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.

20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.

21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.

[Here’s the answer.]

25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,

29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.

Things to consider:

-When it will change,

-what will change,

-and the environmental model of the change.

Now, reverse it....was there valleys? Was there mountains tall as Mount Everest?

Now, the questions or academia an argument is over the earth model prior to the deluge and whether or not, place like Mount Everest did exist to disclaim the deluge story. The other point of this ponderous issue is the dividing of land did happen or was it a division of people [see Genesis 10:25].

25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was aPeleg; for in his days was the earth bdivided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.

Topical guide indexes:

Gen. 1: 9 (Moses 2: 9) let the waters . . . be gathered together unto one place.

Gen. 10: 25 (1 Chr. 1: 19) in his days was the earth divided.

Ether 13: 2 waters had receded . . . it became a choice land.

D&C 133: 24 earth shall be like as it was . . . before it was divided.

Moses 1: 29 many lands, and each land was called earth.

What you may consider is the words of Ether [13:2] since he had only the writings of Adam to Nimrod timeframe. Remember also, Abraham was in his youth at that time event when Jared and his family left when the tower was destroyed.

2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had areceded from off the face of this bland it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should cserve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

Another closer look is Ether Chapter 2:

1 And it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the afriends of Jared and his brother and their families, went down into the valley which was northward, (and the name of the valley was bNimrod, being called after the mighty hunter) with their cflocks which they had gathered together, male and female, of every kind. 2 And they did also lay snares and catch afowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.

3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them aswarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, bseeds of every kind.

4 And it came to pass that when they had come down into the valley of Nimrod the Lord came down and talked with the brother of Jared; and he was in a acloud, and the brother of Jared saw him not.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should ago forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been. And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a bcloud, and gave cdirections whither they should travel.

The Americas, according to the Ether's teaching from the known writings of the previous Jaredites prophets, had to prepare certain stables in order to live in the lands of the Americas. Noah, did the same prior leaving the east [see Gen 8 thru 10] of Eden area to gather stables to live in the land of upper middle east. Each of them, had to bring stables in order to survive the new land. There was not much time between Noah [three generations] coming to the new land and Jaredites traveling to the Americas.

In these statements, you can spot other tidbits within D&C 133 concerning the Ten-Tribes and the term usage [plural here], PROPHETS vice PROPHET.

Now, once we begin the journey of studying, it should be our next object with assimilating an answer and then approach GOD for either a confirmation, or audio, or visual type answer [depending on spiritual maturity]. The key is, never stop studying and asking until it is answered.

Stop here for now...

[mikbone]

Genesis 7:11

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

This verse explains that the water that covered the Earth came from 2 sources. From the atmosphere, and from the interior of the Earth itself.

John A Widtsoe in Evidences and Reconciliations addresses the Flood and has a couple of comments that I like.

1) In some places the layer of water might have been twenty-six feet deep or more; in others, as on sloping hillsides, it might have been only a fraction of an inch in depth. That the whole earth, however, was under water at the same time was easily possible under a terrific, long-continued downpour, such as is described in Genesis.

2) Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling "the measure of its creation." They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water (D. & C. 88:25; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:274; Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 603; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 1:331).

[JohnnyRudick]

[Part-1] Something to ponder since this is a recurring question on different forums of what the earth looked like before and can easily answer the Noah question that most ponder over. . . .

Looks to me like you have a great outline here.

If I had the mind:confused: anymore I would love to make a book out of it.

I think you have done a wonderful job so far.

Thanks.

I have copied and pasted it out onto my hard drive for further study and if I ever get my mind back I will try to do something with it if ya don't mind:)

Bro. Rudick

Edited May 21, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spelling;)

[Hemidakota]

Genesis 7:11

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

This verse explains that the water that covered the Earth came from 2 sources. From the atmosphere, and from the interior of the Earth itself.

John A Widtsoe in Evidences and Reconciliations addresses the Flood and has a couple of comments that I like.

1) In some places the layer of water might have been twenty-six feet deep or more; in others, as on sloping hillsides, it might have been only a fraction of an inch in depth. That the whole earth, however, was under water at the same time was easily possible under a terrific, long-continued downpour, such as is described in Genesis.

2) Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling "the measure of its creation." They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water (D. & C. 88:25; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:274; Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 603; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 1:331).

This was my thought also when it came to a watering covering, it doesn't specify to the depth of hundreds of feet but enough to cover some places.

[Hemidakota]

Some added tidbits....expanding on Milkbone comment:

The Deluge: a Baptism

When the scholars made their explanatory notes in the Jerusalem Bible concerning the flood, they related the deluge to a baptism. They said that "Noah's salvation pre-figures the saving waters of baptism." Their interpretation is interesting, inasmuch as our own leaders said a similar thing. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

"Now a word as to the reason for the flood. It was the baptism of the earth, and that had to be by immersion. If the water did not cover the entire earth, then it was not baptized, for the baptism of the Lord is not pouring or sprinkling. These forms are strictly man made and not a part of the gospel ordinances." (Doctrines of Salvation 2:320.)

President Smith then quoted from the teachings of some of the presidents and apostles of the Church, including the following:

President Brigham Young: "It [the earth] has already had a baptism. You who have read the Bible must know that that is Bible doctrine. What does it matter if it is not in the same words that I use, it is none the less true that it was baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord said, `I will deluge (or immerse) the earth in water for the remission of the sins of the people'; or if you will allow me to express myself in a familiar style, to kill all the vermin that were nitting, and breeding, and polluting its body; it was cleansed of its filthiness; and soaked in the water, as long as some of our people ought to soak. The Lord baptized the earth for the remission of sins, and it has been once cleansed for the filthiness that has gone out of it, which was in the inhabitants who dwelt upon its face." (Journal of Discourses 1:274.)

"`Brethren and sisters, I wish you to continue in your ways of welldoing; I desire that your minds may be opened more and more to see and understand things as they are. This earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon." (JD 8:83.)

Elder Orson Pratt: "Another great change happened nearly two thousand years after the earth was made. It was baptized by water. A great flow of water came, the great deep was broken up, the windows of heaven were opened from on high, and the waters prevailed upon the face of the earth, sweeping away all wickedness and transgression-a similitude of baptism for the remission of sins. God requires the children of men to be baptized. What for? For the remission of sins. So he required our globe to be baptized by a flow of water, and all of its sins were washed away, not one sin remaining." (JD 21:323.)

"Both man and the earth are redeemed from the original sin without ordinances; but soon we find new sins committed by the fallen sons of Adam, and the earth became corrupted before the Lord by their transgressions. It needs redeeming ordinances for these second transgressions. The Lord ordained baptism, or immersion of the earth in water, as a justifying ordinance." (JD 1:291.)

President John Taylor: "The earth, as a part of the creation of God, has fulfilled and will fulfill the measure of its creation. It has been baptized by water, it will be baptized by fire; it will be purified and become celestial, and be a fit place for celestial bodies to inhabit." (Times and Seasons 5:408-9.)

President Charles W. Penrose: "Thus the inhabitants of the earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation, having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory.

"It has been born of water, it will also be born of the Spirit, purified by fire from all the corruptions that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining `like a sea of glass mingled with fire,' every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed of the Lord will dwell upon it." (The Contributor 2:364.)

[Traveler]

I find some of the comments interesting but at this point – not convincing. Since the argument is that depth is not an issue; why not consider that some places were only under one molecular layer of water? I am not sure I want to jump on an “answer” just because it seems plausible. On the other hand, I am not rejecting any notion. The question of the flood has left me with the thought that we do not have all the information or data on the subject. For me, there just has not surfaced any explanation that I feel comfortable with.

There are some new thoughts that I have missed in the past. One that is very interesting to me is the thought that there were tracks or areas of “land” where man had never ventured. As a youth I was always trying to find a secret place that no one had ever been prior to me finding it. I am not sure why I have always been drawn to such a possibility.

One question that remains with me concerning events of death and destruction on a large scale as a divine option (cities or larger sections of human population); that is the question of the sin that merits the death and destruction option. I have concluded that the sin is in two parts. The first part is the wickedness of the sin and the second is the willingness of a society (as a whole) to accept the sin as a norm of standard of tolerance. The Book of Enoch talks about the sin worthy of the flood as two related sins.

First that the pre-flood society “Changed the order of marriage”. I am not 100% sure what changing the order of marriage is but I have some good ideas concerning laws currently being considered to change the meaning of marriage in our society.

Second pre-flood sin was that “Children were conceived for carnal purposes”. Although abortion would diffidently be a major step in that direction – I personally think that there is more to the considering sex followed by abortion as the exclusive carnal purpose. I wonder about the perceived right for various elements of a society to be carnally fulfilled according to their sexual desire void of any thought for the birth, care and neutering of children.

All of this I post because I believe that by understanding the elements that contributed to the flood we will have a better understanding of the events that will be present during the times that complete the “restoration”.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

The point of the depth was not the issue but to scrutinize the earth model prior to the flood versus what is current today.

[Hemidakota]

Orson Pratt: D&C 133:19-20

Zion . . . will still remain upon the Western Hemisphere, and she will be crowned with glory as well as old Jerusalem, and, as the Psalmist David says, she will become the joy of the whole earth. . . .

Zion will be caught up when Jesus comes, to meet him. Jesus will descend not only upon the Mount of Olives, but he will descend and stand upon Mount Zion. But before he stands upon it, it will be caught up to meet him in the air. Will the buildings of Zion be caught up? Yes. And its land? Yes. And Jesus will stand upon Mount Zion, according to the prediction of John the Revelator, and he will reign over his people during a thousand years; and his associates will be the resurrected righteous of all former dispensations, those, among others, who dwelt on this continent before the flood. (JD, July 25, 1875, 18:68-69.)

Joseph Smith: D&C 133:24

The earth shall be like it was . . . before it was divided

There shall be famine, and pestilence, and earthquake in divers places; and the prophets have declared that the valleys should rise; that the mountains should be laid low [isa. 40:4-5] ; that a great earthquake should be, in which the sun should become black as sack-cloth of hair and the moon turn to blood; yea, the Eternal God hath declared that the great deep shall roll back into the north countries and that the land of Zion and the land of Jerusalem shall be joined together, as they were before they were divided in the days of Peleg. [Gen. 10:25.] No wonder the mind starts at the sound of the last days. (EMS, February 1835.)

The following is from a sermon by President Brigham Young spoken in Ogden, June 12, 1860:

Brethren and sisters, I wish you to continue in your ways of well doing; I desire that your minds may be opened more and more to see and understand things as they are. This earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon. Vol. 8, p. 83.

This is from a discourse by Elder Orson Pratt:

The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of it were washed away. As it came forth from the ocean flood, like the new-born child, it was innocent, it arose to newness of life; it was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocency of this first creation. As men cannot be born again of water, without an administrator, so the earth required an agency independent of itself, to administer this grand cleansing ordinance, and restore it to its infant purity. That administrator was the Redeemer himself. Vol. 12, p. 364.

Following is an excerpt from an article entitled, "Leaves From the Tree of Life," by President Charles W. Penrose:

Thus the inhabitants of earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation, having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory. It has been born of the water, it will also be born of the Spirit, purified by fire from the corruption that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the Creator's presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining, "like a sea of glass mingled with fire," every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed of the Lord will dwell upon it; the highest beings of the ancient orbs will visit it; the garden of God will again adorn it; the heavenly government will prevail in every part; Jesus will reign as its King; the river of life will flow out from the regal throne; the tree of life, whose leaves were for the healing of the nations, will flourish upon the banks of the heavenly stream, and its golden fruit will be free for the white-robed throng, that they may eat and live forever. This perfected Earth and its saved inhabitants will then be presented to the Eternal Father as the finished work of Christ, and all things will be subject unto the Great Patriarch, Architect, Creator, Ruler, the Almighty, to whom be obedience and reverence and praise in all the countless worlds that shine as jewels in His universal Crown. Contributor, Vol. 2, p. 364

This is the testimony of President John Taylor:

The earth, as part of the creation of God, has fulfilled and will fulfil the measure of its creation. It has been baptized by water, it will be baptized by fire; it will be purified and become celestial, and be a fit place for celestial bodies to inhabit. It will become the residence of those who have abode a celestial law, and of none other, after it has become purified, and made celestial. Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, pp. 408-409

Testimony of Elder Orson F. Whitney:

436Of Noah's day, it is written: "As the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be." And it was the Son of Man—though I prefer to call him the Son of God—who said it. Baptized with water in the days of Noah. Conferences Reports, April, 1927

Edited May 21, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Adding to the research, is the matter of those who lived and recorded any written material living in the presence of Noah life after the flood. Here is a transcript from the series called "Lectures on Faith", Delivered to the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, 1834-35 by Joseph Smith;

Agreeable to this last account, Peleg died in the 1996th year of the world, Nahor in the 1997th, and Noah in the 2006th. So that Peleg, in whose days the earth was divided, and Nahor, the grandfather of Abraham, both died before Noah—the former being 239 years old, and the latter 148; and who cannot but see that they must have had a long and intimate acquaintance with Noah?

Reu died in the 2026th year of the world, Serug in the 2049th, Terah in the 2083rd, Arphaxad in the 2096th, Salah in the 2126th, Shem in the 2158th, Abraham in the 2183rd, and Eber in the 2187th, which was four years after Abraham's death. And Eber was the fourth from Noah.

Nahor, Abraham's brother, was 58 years old when Noah died, Terah 128, Serug 187, Reu 219, Eber 283, Salah 313, Arphaxad 344, and Shem 448.

It appears from this account, that Nahor, brother of Abraham, Terah, Nahor, Serug, Reu, Peleg, Eber, Salah, Arphaxad, Shem, and Noah, all lived on the earth at the same time; and that Abraham was 18 years old when Reu died, 41 when Serug and his brother Nahor died, 75 when Terah died, 88 when Arphaxad died, 118 when Salah died, 150 when Shem died, and that Eber lived four years after Abraham's death. And that Shem, Arphaxad, Salah, Eber, Reu, Serug, Terah, and Nahor, the brother of Abraham, and Abraham, lived at the same time. And that Nahor, brother of Abraham, Terah, Serug, Reu, Eber, Salah, Arphaxad, and Shem, were all acquainted with both Noah and Abraham.