Chavez to Castro: 'Comrade' Obama Farther Left Than Us

[drjme]

Hahah. It's okay, Jme. I know you're not really an attacker on the forums. You are very anti-Obama and I'm a moderate who disagrees with most discourse I consider over-the-top.

Speaking of which, I have something for Lamayana, who said that Chavez has said nothing bad or good about the US.

Here's a copy of what he said in the UN:

Now, I'm no political science major, but I would guess that to be 'Bad'. He certainly has reason to believe what he has said - In Iran, the US supported Contras for an overthrow of the government. They have supported petty tyrants in Africa. They supported Saddam in an attempt to limit Iran's power. The US have historically backed those in opposition to their enemies.

Hugo Chavez does hate the US. He has engaged in military exercises with Putin. He has attacked students protesting in his country. Nobody is saying he hasn't brought money to the poorest sector. That's his base of power.

I'm not even certain why you're arguing this. He's very open with his dislike. You can say I'm wrong with calling him a petty tyrant-in-the-making. I would disagree and point out the things I have. But you seem to be arguing he doesn't hate the US, which he clearly does.

About the americans funding coups, check out mossadeq and Iran. A democratically elected government ousted by a American financed coup.

[Vort]

If you truly considered it an inappropriate word, you would not have used it. I take your word at face value: You hate the US government.

The US government is elected by and a representative of the US people. If you hate the US government, as you state, then you hate the US citizenry. We are a government of the people.

Why do you Americans like to bust this line out?

Maybe because we're suckers for stating obvious truths.

I am on a number of forums and a lot of these comments are tossed about willy nilly, accusations of 'you are a frothing at the mouth america hater, because you don't like the american government you don't like the american people which means you hate me!!!' (exaggerated yes, but basically implied).

The only exaggeration I see is the "frothing at the mouth" part. Please demonstrate to me where that is implied in anything I wrote.

It's really sad.....

Agreed. The hatred of the American people and the lies and distortions that fuel that hatred are indeed sad.

Do you disagree with me when I say that America is on the road to socialism/communism?

No.

if yes, then the American people voted for it.

What sense does this make? If I disagree with your contention -- that is, if I do not believe that "America is on the road to socialism/communism" -- then that is because the American people voted for "socialism/communism"?

In fact, I agree with your contention. Does that therefore mean that the American people voted against "socialism/communism"?

Please write in such a way that I can understand what you're trying to say.

Do you disagree with me when I say that 8 years after the iraq invasion to liberate them, they are no more free and no more better off than they were with saddam, with millions of dead iraqi civilians and Children?

Yes. In fact, I'd say you are lying, or else are badly duped into believing blatant falsehoods and nonsense.

According to the (anti-Iraq war, anti-American) ICasualties website, the current confirmed Iraqi security forces and civilian death toll is 45103 (though it does say that this does not include all civilian deaths). The much more blatantly anti-Iraq war, anti-American site Iraq Body Count places the documented civilian death toll at between 92458 and 100964.

That's a civilian death toll of less than one-twentieth of your claim.

who voted that US government in?

I did, for one.

Do you disagree with me when I tell you that the US has 'offence' force bases in over 150 countries and that many countries want them out, but the offence forces aren't budging?

Yes, and given your proven lying (or at least abysmal ignorance) in the previous instance, it's not hard at all to disagree with you. The US has no standing "offence" (or even "offense") force bases in any country, except perhaps its own, and certainly not in 150 countries around the world. I have never heard of any country asking or demanding that the US get rid of a standing offense force base.

who voted for that oppression?

If such oppression exists, then obviously the US people voted for it by electing its authors and refusing to remove them from office when they could have.

Who voted for abu ghraib and torture?

Those who put the administration in office, including myself.

Well YOU did of course, with your democratically elected government by choice of the people, a government that endorses all of the above. YOU must be responsible yes?

Bingo. Now you're finally catching on.

Unlike your blatant hatred for me and my fellow citizens, I do not hate you. But I do despise your willful ignorance of things and your insistence on believing anything your local media want you to believe with respect to US foreign policy. (Note that, unlike you, I am also willing to be honest and tell you directly how I disagree with you and what I feel toward you, rather than pretend that any animosity is not really directed toward you at all.)

[Vort]

I do not hate the US government or the citizenry

This directly conflicts with your previous assertion:

I quote "hate" (a strong and inappropriate word) the US government...

You either hate the US government (whether or not you think the word is "strong and inappropriate") or else you do not. You stated that you did. Now you claim you do not.

How do we know what to believe from you?

regardless of the empty accusations you raze against me

What exactly does it mean to "raze" an accusation against someone? Do you mean that I took an accusation against you and tore it down? Because I'm pretty sure I did no such thing, at least not in this thread.

Or do you perchance mean "raise"? If so, then you are wrong. My previous quotation of your own words proves that the accusation I raised (as opposed to "razed") against you was not at all empty.

but I do hate the system for which it is a symptom -- and that is not government elected as representative of the people.

So "the US government or [its] citizenry" is a symptom of an unrepresentative government? Do I understand you correctly?

How is the US government a "symptom" of "unrepresentative government" that you hate so badly, but somehow does not qualify as the "unrepresentative government" itself?

And how is the US citizenry a "symptom" of "unrepresentative government"?

[drjme]

Maybe because we're suckers for stating obvious truths.

>>>you got the first part right

The only exaggeration I see is the "frothing at the mouth" part. Please demonstrate to me where that is implied in anything I wrote.

>>>the frothing at your mouth has become apparent in your post. calling me abysmally ignorant, deluded, a liar etc.

What sense does this make? If I disagree with your contention -- that is, if I do not believe that "America is on the road to socialism/communism" -- then that is because the American people voted for "socialism/communism"?

>>>yes, maybe you need to look at the communist manifesto and how many 'planks' the US now has as part of it's society/government policy.

In fact, I agree with your contention. Does that therefore mean that the American people voted against "socialism/communism"?

>>>No, Do you understand what socialism/communism is? It's not a russian thing my friend, You obviously don't see how American policy is moving more and more 'into the red'. So, if they vote and elect for a politician that promotes socialist/communist policy, then the people are voting FOR socialism/communism. yes?

Please write in such a way that I can understand what you're trying to say.

>>>>Others understood what I was trying say, why can't you?

Yes. In fact, I'd say you are lying, or else are badly duped into believing blatant falsehoods and nonsense.

>>>whatever you want to believe, buddy.

According to the (anti-Iraq war, anti-American) ICasualties website, the current confirmed Iraqi security forces and civilian death toll is 45103 (though it does say that this does not include all civilian deaths). The much more blatantly anti-Iraq war, anti-American site Iraq Body Count places the documented civilian death toll at between 92458 and 100964.

That's a civilian death toll of less than one-twentieth of your claim.

>>>no, you and that website claim less a death toll one twentieth less, did you not check your links properly?

link through to the iraq death toll on your antiwar website to this: Iraq Deaths | Just Foreign Policy

estimate of 1.2million.

A study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then, this being the only peer reviewed study too, you know.

Yes, and given your proven lying (or at least abysmal ignorance) in the previous instance, it's not hard at all to disagree with you. The US has no standing "offence" (or even "offense") force bases in any country, except perhaps its own, and certainly not in 150 countries around the world. I have never heard of any country asking or demanding that the US get rid of a standing offense force base.

>>>It was wordplay, 'offence' replaces 'defence'. Oh and since you never heard of any country demanding the US out of their country, it must have never happened aye? this thing called the interenets is amazing for finding really interesting info. look up how many countries the US has bases in, and scan through the articles to find info on countries that want them out.

Unlike your blatant hatred for me and my fellow citizens, I do not hate you. But I do despise your willful ignorance of things and your insistence on believing anything your local media want you to believe with respect to US foreign policy. (Note that, unlike you, I am also willing to be honest and tell you directly how I disagree with you and what I feel toward you, rather than pretend that any animosity is not really directed toward you at all.)

WOW, you are really quite aggresive aren't you? blatant hatred? youre funny. Believing anything my local media tells me? thats funny too, I don't watch MSM for that reason, you only see one view, what the TV wants you to. What do you think I live in venezuela? I am in a western country too, you know. you got the problem of thinking that 'America' can't do anything wrong or that they wouldn't 'because we are America, Not one of those corrupt South American tyrannical governments'. You seem to be in need of a history lesson.

Edited July 7, 2009 by drjme

[Vort]

Maybe because we're suckers for stating obvious truths.

you got the first part right

Ah. Americans are suckers. Nothing hateful there.

The only exaggeration I see is the "frothing at the mouth" part. Please demonstrate to me where that is implied in anything I wrote.

the frothing at your mouth has become apparent in your post. calling me abysmally ignorant, deluded, a liar etc.

Now, now, drjme, it's dishonest to change the subject of the accusation. Try again.

You claimed that I implied that you were "frothing at the mouth". To wit:

...accusations of 'you are a frothing at the mouth america hater...

I never said nor implied any such thing. If you are honest, you will demonstrate where I ever implied that you were "a frothing at the mouth america [sic] hater," or you will admit that you were not telling the truth. Claiming that I am a "frothing-at-the-mouth America-hater" is pointedly absurd.

What sense does this make? If I disagree with your contention -- that is, if I do not believe that "America is on the road to socialism/communism" -- then that is because the American people voted for "socialism/communism"?

yes

Do you have a clue as to what you're even saying?

DRJME: Is America on the road to socialism?

OTHER PERSON: No.

DRJME: That's because Americans voted for socialism!!!!!

News flash: That doesn't make any sense.

maybe you need to look at the communist manifesto and how many 'planks' the US now has as part of it's society/government policy.

Why would I need to do that? As I already stated, I do believe that such things have been incorporated into the US government.

In fact, I agree with your contention. Does that therefore mean that the American people voted against "socialism/communism"?

No, Do you understand what socialism/communism is?

Of course I do. Are you really too dull to understand what I'm saying? What you wrote was the opposite of what you meant. At least, it's the opposite of what I think you were struggling to say.

It's not a russian thing my friend, You obviously don't see how American policy is moving more and more 'into the red'.

Wow. Is it that obvious?

So, if they vote and elect for a politician that promotes socialist/communist policy, then the people are voting FOR socialism/communism. yes?

Well, that's what I was thinking, until you insisted that, if I disagreed with your claim that America was becoming more communist/socialist, it was because the people voted for it.

Please write in such a way that I can understand what you're trying to say.

Others understood what I was trying say, why can't you?

What leads you to believe they understood you, or are even reading anything you (or I) write?

Yes. In fact, I'd say you are lying, or else are badly duped into believing blatant falsehoods and nonsense.

whatever you want to believe, buddy.

Thanks.

According to the (anti-Iraq war, anti-American) ICasualties website, the current confirmed Iraqi security forces and civilian death toll is 45103 (though it does say that this does not include all civilian deaths). The much more blatantly anti-Iraq war, anti-American site Iraq Body Count places the documented civilian death toll at between 92458 and 100964.

That's a civilian death toll of less than one-twentieth of your claim.

no, you and that website claim less a death toll one twentieth less, did you not check your links properly?

Not sure which is your native language, but what you wrote above does not constitute a grammatically correct English sentence. " and that website claim less a death toll one twentieth less" -- what is this supposed to mean? "[D]id not check [my] links properly?" -- Yes, and I'm quite sure my links supported what I wrote.

link through to the iraq death toll on your antiwar website

My antiwar website? What on earth are you talking about? Do even you have any idea?

Iraq Deaths | Just Foreign Policy

estimate of 1.2million.

What a crock! They poll 1499 households in Baghdad, call it "representative", and generalize to declare over a million deaths!

Any statisticians care to comment on this methodology?

A study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then, this being the only peer reviewed study too, you know.

What happened to "millions"? Are you now backing off of your original claim? Even if we were to accept the absurd estimate by the Opinion Polling group you cite, that's still less than millions.

At what point do you simply admit you were wrong? Never?

Yes, and given your proven lying (or at least abysmal ignorance) in the previous instance, it's not hard at all to disagree with you. The US has no standing "offence" (or even "offense") force bases in any country, except perhaps its own, and certainly not in 150 countries around the world. I have never heard of any country asking or demanding that the US get rid of a standing offense force base.

It was wordplay, 'offence' replaces 'defence'.

Ah. How immensely clever of you. But if you are going to call the military bases "offensive", I will refuse to recognize your word (ab)usage. If the government of Germany, Japan, or any other ally demanded that the US vacate its military base and leave, the US would do so. If you can supply an instance of an ally demanding that the US withdraw, but the US did not withdraw its military base, please do so.

Oh and since you never heard of any country demanding the US out of their country, it must have never happened aye?

I never wrote this. You either don't read so well or you are being dishonest.

this thing called the interenets is amazing for finding really interesting info. look up how many countries the US has bases in, and scan through the articles to find info on countries that want them out.

Since you're so great at these confounded interwebs that give me so much trouble, perhaps you could simply point me to a resource that shows a sovereign US ally that demanded the US to leave a military base on its soil where the US refused.

Unlike your blatant hatred for me and my fellow citizens, I do not hate you. But I do despise your willful ignorance of things and your insistence on believing anything your local media want you to believe with respect to US foreign policy. (Note that, unlike you, I am also willing to be honest and tell you directly how I disagree with you and what I feel toward you, rather than pretend that any animosity is not really directed toward you at all.)

WOW, you are really quite aggresive aren't you?

No, but I try to be honest.

blatant hatred? youre funny.

Thankyewverrumuch. I'll be here all week.

Believing anything my local media tells me? thats funny too, I don't watch MSM for that reason, you only see one view, what the TV wants you to.

And the really fascinating thing is that I don't even watch TV. Amazing how much TV can influence me without my even watching it!

What do you think I live in venezuela?

I assumed Australia, but maybe "Kiwi trapped in Aussie" really means you're a Chinese gooseberry confined to, er, Venezuela.

I am in a western country too, you know. you got the problem of thinking that 'America' can't do anything wrong or that they wouldn't 'because we are America

And yet, this is directly antithetical to what I've written.

Your powers of mind-reading are astounding. You're able to tell me what I think, when even I myself don't know I'm thinking it!

You seem to be in need of a history lesson.

That, or else I need to take mind-reading lessons from you and learn to impute to others attitudes that they explicitly and implicitly deny. Either would probably work.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Vort

[FunkyTown]

So... In the interests of giving two sides to the story, here is an interview with Hugo Chavez. Make of it what you will: