why do you believe

[mountthepavement]

I guess this could be answered in a rather lengthy way, but if you will, permit me to conduct an informal poll in which responders are asked to generally describe the TYPE of their criteria for belief, such as:

1) emotional

2) logical

3) on the testimony, assurance or expertise of others

4) personal sensory communication with God

5) anything else I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

In interest of full disclosure I am not LDS but I am interested in your particular individual experiences and beliefs! Hopefully, my agenda is simply to ask questions and listen charitably.

Thanks!

--mountthepavement

[pam]

I suppose my personal thoughts would be it is based on a confirmation from my Heavenly Father that all that I believe to be regarding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true.

Never would I base my decision on the testimony of another. Each testimony has to be a personal testament to themself of their own thoughts and beliefs.

I've never had some "hit me over the head" experience that some may have had. I've been a member all my life. While some would think that I've been brainwashed into what I believe...I say hogwash.

All that I have learned through my years seems yes logical and also loving.

Funny I've even tried at times to try and convince myself that the Church isn't true. But it doesn't work. I know with certainty that it is true.

[mountthepavement]

hello,

thanks for your response. i'm still here, so i hope you won't mind a quick follow-up!

I am interested in the "confirmation." What do you mean by that? That's what I am interested in. I understand you believe it to be true, of course.

Thanks again!

--mountthepavement

[mountthepavement]

Each testimony has to be a personal testament to themself of their own thoughts and beliefs.

Perhaps I should have paid closer attention to this above.

...

Would you characterize this as a form of internal reflection? Is it similar or dissimilar to the experience of reflecting on other aspects of your identity?

Thanks!! :)

[pam]

I have prayed to my Heavenly Father about these things. When I say confirmation I'm referring to an answer to my prayer. To a comforting warm feeling that all is true. It's hard to describe in written word. It's like a feeling of having someone wrapping their arms around me and say...yep...you've got it. I don't know if that makes sense to you.

[pam]

Each individual testimony is personal. Each person arrives at their decision to believe all is true in their own personal ways. We are all at different levels of spirituality, knowledge and even faith.

While I can listen to others describe and share their testimony and be extremely touched by it; it is still THEIR testimony and I have to rely on my own faith and understanding to obtain my own.

[mountthepavement]

I have prayed to my Heavenly Father about these things. When I say confirmation I'm referring to an answer to my prayer.

Okay. Sorry to be overly querulous, but I do believe you mean a physical, material, or external confirmation? Or...

To a comforting warm feeling that all is true. It's hard to describe in written word. It's like a feeling of having someone wrapping their arms around me and say...yep...you've got it. I don't know if that makes sense to you.

Or is the above specifically what you mean, the warm, comforting feeling. Or both!!? :)

In reply to whether it makes sense, I think I must answer to the utmost sense of what it seems to me to mean to be charitable by saying, certainly I can imagine what you mean, and then ask further questions to the extent that your patience allows.

Thanks! :)

[mountthepavement]

Each individual testimony is personal. Each person arrives at their decision to believe all is true in their own personal ways.

I am interested also in this statement! I take you quite literally that we must or may decide whether to follow the call that you have felt!

What are the criteria for such a decision! I know this is a circular sounding question. But there are many decisions in life on which we bring to bear various criteria, such as getting Tide or the other less-advertised stuff. Some criteria may even be quite conscious.

I think an understandable answer might be to refer me back to the warm feeling, if you like, but, of course, you can answer for yourself as well!

Thanks. You are already generous with your time.

Edit: I think I understand now that your warm feeling (a continuing feeling, or least periodic one no doubt!) is indeed the criterion for your decision. A follow-up question may be in regard to your statement that it has subsequently seemed logical. I am now curious if you would agree with my supposition that others not only arrive at this DECISION in particular, personal ways, but, more to the point, to this feeling of confirmation through particular, personal narrative paths or biographical chronologies-- that is, that the individual differences lie in the narrative details, but not in the feeling of truth which is one-in-the-same among all believers (LDS) ?

Edited June 7, 2009 by mountthepavement

[mountthepavement]

Also, based on previous (little) experience, I am personally hypothesizing (for my own purposes) that 100% of your co-religionists found their decision (at least in part) and their certainty on this confirmation that we can refer to charitably as the warm, comforting feeling of truth. I don't necessarily think I am right in this, but I am just conjecturing or wondering this for myself. Would you put it at a high number or as nearly or perhaps completely universal in your own estimation? Could it be that other LDS members have another experience or non-experiential criterion? Of course, I do hope to hear from some more as well here! But I am thankful to at least hear what you have to say.

Thanks!

Edited June 7, 2009 by mountthepavement

[NeuroTypical]

Here's something I wrote a few years back about my experience. I hope it gives you some insight into what our scriptures call knowledge.

Alma 32:27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The first scripture promises a slowly evolving process from faith to knowledge, through the assumption that if it looks good, and acts good, and produces good fruit, then it is good. Not really enough to base a testimony on, in my opinion. But Moroni promised something else - "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.". That sounded a little more like it. So, when I looked at the verse, it laid out my side of the bargain:

1- "And when ye shall receive these things" - Before it would work, I had to read the Book of Mormon. But more than read it, to "receive" it. I had to internalize it - deeply reading for meaning, more than just a cursory glance. Not a critical reading, looking for faults. I had to read it, with the notion that it very well might be exactly what it claimes to be - scripture. True. The word of God. A literal history of people who literally lived.

2- "I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true"

So, I had to pray. Not just pray, but pray in the name of Christ. That means, I had to be worthy of his name. The guy who owns The Simsons brand, will let any amount of stupid garbage bear the name - Bart Simpson toothpaste, cheap flimsy Homer travel mugs, stupid T-shirts make out of inferior materials, whatever. But Jesus is more choosy. If you are going to bear his name, you need to be following his teachings.

This is possible to do, without actually believing in him. After all, I follow some of Sun-Tzu's "art of war" notions, but I don't believe he is a god, and I also don't share his faith. The best advice for a happy marriage, the notion that I've used as a foundation for mine, came from a drunk Tongan I met in an alleyway one night. I follow that advice daily, yet I'm not a big fan of the guy who gave it to me.

So, to take upon myself the name of Christ, I had to do and be a couple of main things:

* Not sinning

* Loving my neighbor

* Desiring to know a God I could love

I did not have to be perfect, I figured it was a matter of heart. It wasn't how close to my destination I was, it mattered only that my compass was pointed in the right direction, and I was following it. Yes, there was some doubt about what the compass was pointing to - was it true north, or just wishful thinking. But that didn't matter - I was just trying to satisfy this part of the scripture - and be able to pray in the name of Christ.

So, I prayed. I prayed nightly, starting about halfway through the book. I prayed fervently. My prayers were short and simple: "Dear Heavenly Father, if thou exist, thou knowest my heart. Thou knowest I am sincere. I desire to know of the truthfulness of this work. Please show it to me. In the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen". Simple, plain, sincere, over and over again.

3- "and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,"

Ok - 3 requirements - and I had to have all 3 of them. In years past, I had read the BoM and prayed in the name of Christ, and got nothing. I was missing real intent - I figured I wouldn't get an answer, and praying was a way of proving my guess true.

It's about where my heart is. It needs to be sincere, not with an ulterior motive, burdened by unrepented of sin, or trying to get something else out of the experience. My intent had to be true. No faith, no promise.

I can't impress enough on everyone, the importance of these 3 items. They're related, but if you are missing one, don't be expecting anything. If you are having a hard time figuring out where you are on these 3, you're probably not there.

Throughout the process, I was comfortable with my part of the bargain. It was like showing up for a test being very, very well prepared - there's a confidence based on the fact that you know what you're doing. I wasn't lying to myself, or bending any rules, or figuring out the least I could do to satisfy the bare minimum - I was there, and there solidly.

I did not believe in God - but I didn't have to. I just had to want to. I was not setting aside doubts - they held the center stage.

4- "He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

So, what can I say - it happened.

It happened at work, where I was a candy maker, with an arm covered with chocolate. (If you've ever been to a fancy hotel, or taken a fancy cruise, and there's a chocolate mint on your pillow - that's what I used to make by hand.)

The details? Here is where I need to be a bit vague, in order to avoid embarassing stuff about someone who is not me. I was working away quietly, thinking about reality, wondering if I'd ever know what it was, and thinking about an unresolved situation in my life. I was at a crossroads, only tangentially related to my quest to discover the truth about the Book of Mormon. As I thought about this crossroads, trying to discern what to make out of the facts before me, I thought something along the lines of "Well, this pattern indicates that things are moving in the right direction... "

And it happened.

Words can't really explain it - they can only approximate it.

It was unmistakable, not a warm fuzzy, not an emotional reaction.

I had my answer. It was "yes".

It was a strong, internal sensation. Not a feeling - I wasn't happy or sad. The best word is "confirmation" . And what was it confirming? Many things. It was confirming that yes, I had just said something true - the pattern I was looking at was indeed moving in the right direction. It confirmed that there WAS a right direction. It confirmed that this notion of reality that I had looked at - this bizarre tale of prophets and plates and revelations and restorations, had the added benefit of being true.

A few side details:

* The first thing that dawned on me was, "My gosh, this is the Holy Ghost speaking with me!" The second thought that came a few minutes later was "My gosh, I've felt this before!" In one or two of the most stressful times of my life, I had felt that sensation before. I had written off the experience at the time, but realization flooded me - the Lord had stood by me, even while I was inactive.

* Other people tell me their conversion stories, and they are often different. My Bishop, as a young man, was watching a sunset, and said a brief prayer "thank you, God", and heard the words as clear as day "You'll be all right - I'll always take care of you". My experience was different. Another guy from my ward had been desiring to feel the Love of Christ - and felt it unexpectedly when he stood up to shake hands with a brother from another ward. They stood there with clasped hands, with tears flowing down both their faces. My experience was different - there was not a lot of emotion (although I pretty soon felt exhilleration, as it sank in what was happening). My wife's grandfather was on a bar stool 40 years ago, having left the church, and was almost knocked to the floor by the words "Wayne, why hast thou forsaken me?" I heard no words. The energy and the impact was internal to me, not external like it was to him.

* I have since felt this impression, this confirmation, quite often. As I returned to church in full force, keeping my baptismal covenant, the Holy Ghost has been, at points in my life, my constant companion.

* I have since been able to test this "answer", this influence of the spirit, this burning in the bosom, fairly scientifically. I've been able, once, to "switch" it on and off several times, by asking the Lord in prayer "should I do this?.... should I not do this?... should I do this?"

[Justice]

My answer is very simple.

Because the Book of Mormon is scripture.

[bmy-]

1) emotional

2) logical

3) on the testimony, assurance or expertise of others

4) personal sensory communication with God

5) anything else I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

Logical thinking and testimony.. and fear of the unknown. I don't have 'faith'.. I have hope.

[mountthepavement]

hello loudmouth :),

What I am hearing is a description of what you call the Holy Ghost, I see. No to be flippant, but do you think that this sensation (I accept that you say it is not emotional but rather some kind of physical sensation) is correlated with a particular neurochemical, say, oxytocin?

Also, another follow-up if you'll permit me: Who is your neighbor?

Thanks, this is all interesting. I see you have de-emphasized the description of warm, making sure to point out it wasn't warm and fuzzy, but you do call it burning, which way be a warm and, indeed, comforting feeling, as Pam described, albeit one which is more physical or visceral than emotional, visceral meaning, from the gut.

Edited June 7, 2009 by mountthepavement
needed to identify responsee

[mountthepavement]

My answer is very simple.

Because the Book of Mormon is scripture.

Hi!

That is indeed very brief. Of course, what I am asking is, briefly, how did you come to accept that it is (true) scripture (versus what you perhaps might call untrue, such as the Vedas or something.)

Thanks!

[mountthepavement]

Logical thinking and testimony.. and fear of the unknown. I don't have 'faith'.. I have hope.

Great!

Okay, what do you mean by testimony? Your own? Others'? Seems like you mean something specific.

It's interesting... am I right in hearing that you de-emphasize faith? But I trust you probably say that you do have faith in some sense, just not as regards life after death, no? Does hope sound like a stronger term for your expectations than faith? It sounds to me weaker, so I hope you will clarify.

Finally, what sort of logical thinking? And what makes the thinking you have in mind logical versus, say, linguistic but not strictly logical?

Thanks for any response I get in advance!!

[Misshalfway]

I guess this could be answered in a rather lengthy way, but if you will, permit me to conduct an informal poll in which responders are asked to generally describe the TYPE of their criteria for belief, such as:

1) emotional

2) logical

3) on the testimony, assurance or expertise of others

4) personal sensory communication with God

5) anything else I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

In interest of full disclosure I am not LDS but I am interested in your particular individual experiences and beliefs! Hopefully, my agenda is simply to ask questions and listen charitably.

Thanks!

--mountthepavement

Ok....so I will try to answer your poll.

I think my belief system (I am LDS) is based upon a combination of your top four...plus a few things. Not quite sure what you mean by number 5.

Sometimes a certain belief started for one reason and has stayed with me for another. M ost of the time, though, I would evaluated my beliefs based upon what I call spiritual evidence -- or maybe the results I have observed thru my spiritual experimentation. Something that really entails a combination of faith, obedience, trust, mistake making, and repentance. I think also my belief system has been shaped by a few battles with fear and doubt and the outcomes of those battles.

[Misshalfway]

I guess this could be answered in a rather lengthy way, but if you will, permit me to conduct an informal poll in which responders are asked to generally describe the TYPE of their criteria for belief, such as:

1) emotional

2) logical

3) on the testimony, assurance or expertise of others

4) personal sensory communication with God

5) anything else I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

In interest of full disclosure I am not LDS but I am interested in your particular individual experiences and beliefs! Hopefully, my agenda is simply to ask questions and listen charitably.

Thanks!

--mountthepavement

Ok....so I will try to answer your poll.

I think my belief system (I am LDS) is based upon a combination of your top four...plus a few things. Not quite sure what you mean by number 5.

Sometimes a certain belief started for one reason and has stayed with me for another. M ost of the time, though, I would evaluate my beliefs based upon what I call spiritual evidence -- or maybe the results I have observed thru my spiritual experimentation and commitments. Something that really entails a combination of faith, obedience, trust, mistake making, and repentance over time. I think also my belief system has been shaped by a few battles with fear and doubt and the outcomes of those battles.

[pam]

What are the criteria for such a decision!

I don't believe there is any criteria set in stone. Again each person is different. What might be a criteria for one may not be for another. Again each person arrives or gains their testimony differently. For some it might be like a light bulb going off in their head...for others just a comforting feeling. No two people arrive at it in the exact same way.

[bmy-]

Great!

Okay, what do you mean by testimony? Your own? Others'? Seems like you mean something specific.

It's interesting... am I right in hearing that you de-emphasize faith? But I trust you probably say that you do have faith in some sense, just not as regards life after death, no? Does hope sound like a stronger term for your expectations than faith? It sounds to me weaker, so I hope you will clarify.

Finally, what sort of logical thinking? And what makes the thinking you have in mind logical versus, say, linguistic but not strictly logical?

Thanks for any response I get in advance!!

Oh, sorry! I meant the testimony of others (specifically those i'm close to). You're right in saying hope is much weaker than faith. I hope this Church is true because there's a few people I want to be around forever (including myself, hah).

Logical thinking.. I believe that everything arose through natural processes.. even God. No creation.. nothing. More or less that 'species' God evolved to where he is now. As far as i'm aware this is the only Christian theology that can work with scientific theories, etc. So it's the one I chose.

[mountthepavement]

Ok....so I will try to answer your poll.

I think my belief system (I am LDS) is based upon a combination of your top four...plus a few things. Not quite sure what you mean by number 5.

Sometimes a certain belief started for one reason and has stayed with me for another. M ost of the time, though, I would evaluate my beliefs based upon what I call spiritual evidence -- or maybe the results I have observed thru my spiritual experimentation and commitments. Something that really entails a combination of faith, obedience, trust, mistake making, and repentance over time. I think also my belief system has been shaped by a few battles with fear and doubt and the outcomes of those battles.

#5 is my way of saying "fill-in-the-blank"! Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Hello tho!

Now, I am sorry if this is a distressing question in the way I frame it, but I think it probably won't be for you, since I can guess you have already asked yourself many such questions:

How do you know that your positive spiritual feedback, if you will, is indeed from god, or a god of truth, and is not either a physical, emotional, or even rhetorical enticement from your own mind or perhaps some spiritual entity to believe something false. In short, if members of other religions describe a similar process for coming to their beliefs, how can we know which is right? I do not say that I know folks of other faith have similar experiences, but I would suppose, for the record.

That's probably enough for now! Thanks for responding if you do!

[mountthepavement]

Logical thinking.. I believe that everything arose through natural processes.. even God. No creation.. nothing. More or less that 'species' God evolved to where he is now. As far as i'm aware this is the only Christian theology that can work with scientific theories, etc. So it's the one I chose.

Well, that's really neat! What about the PRIMORDIAL stuff? I mean, where did all the stuff that constitutes the medium for godly evolution come from? Is this an unfair question, perhaps a trick? I hope not. Also, is god still evolving and improving himself in some way? Is god immortal? If natural selection can be understood as what occurs when genetic variation is coupled with competition for reproductive resources, and evolution is the change in genetic make-up in a population over time due to the failure of some members to reproduce (perhaps even the death of some), then how is this process experienced by the gods? Especially, I am interested in what the limited resources are among the gods that would give rise to competition. I hope that is an interesting topic.

Thanks a lot!

[mountthepavement]

Oh, sorry! I meant the testimony of others (specifically those i'm close to). You're right in saying hope is much weaker than faith. I hope this Church is true because there's a few people I want to be around forever (including myself, hah).

Also, then, is it a hope of yours to gain the stronger quality of faith in your life?

[Misshalfway]

#5 is my way of saying "fill-in-the-blank"! Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Hello tho!

Now, I am sorry if this is a distressing question in the way I frame it, but I think it probably won't be for you, since I can guess you have already asked yourself many such questions:

How do you know that your positive spiritual feedback, if you will, is indeed from god, or a god of truth, and is not either a physical, emotional, or even rhetorical enticement from your own mind or perhaps some spiritual entity to believe something false. In short, if members of other religions describe a similar process for coming to their beliefs, how can we know which is right? I do not say that I know folks of other faith have similar experiences, but I would suppose, for the record.

That's probably enough for now! Thanks for responding if you do!

I find myself at a loss for the words that could adequately show you what I mean. I hope you will forgive me or try to see the depth and breadth when I say simply that somehow I know.

Spiritual knowledge is something that I have had to learn to identify amidst all the rest of the "stuff" going on in my head and body. And then there is that ever important element of faith that must be identified as well because I can't say in all honesty that every piece of my knowledge is perfect or complete. But there is enough surety that I can confidently put my trust and faith to work inside of the process and with the knowledge that I have received. In short, I can say that the process works! And that there are things I do know....things that defy reason and culture and human-ness.

Spiritual communication is something that defies description and you only really understand after you feel it. And I think to really understand it and perhaps accept it, you must have more than one experience with it. The process of gaining this knowledge must be something you do over and over. It is the "rinse and repeat" philosophy. :) And it works kinda like a a volume button. The more you push, the louder the voice. Or in scriptural terms, each repetition brings more and more light and with that light comes greater understanding and even wisdom.

It is something that seems to lay to rest all the questioning or emotion-izing (yeah...I think I just invented a word. ) and even the trap over over intellectualizing and it happens in a very remarkable yet incredibly simple way. And I think it would be easy to dismiss as hormones or even some prideful delusion if one wasn't able to discern. I think that is why the testing for me has made the difference because it has taught a little of how to discern.

Sometimes I thought I was feeling the spirit and really I was just riding the waves of emotion. Other times I was riding the waves of emotion, but was sure something else was working on me inside of that emotion-- something outside of myself. I have also had the experience where the logic or the hormones were raging as it were, and still the spirit taught me or effected me in a way that seemed to transcend it all.

And now....I am sort of familiar with the spirit voice and how it teaches me or works with my ways of doing things. Sometimes I see it work in others and find that I want more of what they have. And so.....I go back to the process to see if I can taste what they can taste. :)

Make any sense whatsoever????

[pam]

Spiritual communication is something that defies description and you only really understand after you feel it.

Pretty much what I was trying to say earlier but you said it so much more eloquently.

[Dravin]

Pam, Misshalfway I think this talk: The Candle of the Lord probably touches on what you're talking about, mostly the first section, "What does salt taste like?"