Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?

[aj4u]

Please note that I have not attacked Carl's motives, sincerity or character. The things you (Carl62) accuse me of is the antithesis of my position. I am looking to build up people in Christ. Right now and from where I am standing, it looks like you are doing the tearing down.

[aj4u]

AJ you mentioned earlier that someone on this site provided that link to you. In fact you mentioned ztodd. You also mentioned it was done in this thread. I would like you to show me WHERE that link was provided on this thread. If you can't, then I am going to assume that YOU provided the link to somehow further your agenda which is now becoming quite clear. At least to me.

Here is the quote and the link: 1. [back] Brigham Young, "Intelligence, Etc.," Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt, J.V. Long and others, (Oct. 9, 1859), Vol. 7 (London: Latter-day Saint's Book Depot, 1860), 289–289. off-site wiki Brigham clearly states that Joseph Smith is responsible for this dispensation only: "Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are...He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation..." (emphasis added)

The God Makers/Cartoon - FAIRMormon

[pam]

You already posted that link. I am asking you WHERE on this thread did someone from this forum provide that link to you. That is what you claimed earlier.

[john doe]

The Journal of Discourses is not doctrinal or to be viewed as doctrine by LDS. It may be used help explain some doctrines or truths, but it is not in the LDS canon of scripture. I don't believe it is even published anymore. As such, I view it as background noise, and not binding on me and my LDS beliefs.

The very use of The Godmakers makes me suspicious of anyone's motives here. I suggest you try another source for information on our church.

BTW, it is generally better to 'build people up in Christ' by adding to the truth they have, not by attempting to tear down their faith by claiming they have ideas from the devil.

[aj4u]

If you cannot accept the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus the Christ, wait until other works and recorded history of the Savior spent with beside those in the middle east or the Americas. :)

Is another testament another way of saying another gospel? 2 Corn. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.... I do not believe I am lost Gal. 48-1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

48-1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

48-1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

It is mentioned more than once for a reason. Where are you going with this statement of yours? Where ever it is, I fear to thread! Edited June 15, 2009 by aj4u

[pam]

Another testament doesn't mean another gospel. It means another witness to.

[JohnnyRudick]

Is another testament another way of saying another gospel? , , ,

Look up

Testament - Testify - Witness

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against

thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he

shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee

one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses

every word may be established.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but

before two or three witnesses.

John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth;

and no man receiveth his testimony.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on

you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and

into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's

sake.

Luke 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

The Book of Mormon is another witness and testimony of Jesus Christ

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 15, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[john doe]

Is another testament another way of saying another gospel?

No. The gospel is the same, the other testament helps clarify the testimony of Jesus and His gospel. Maybe you have read the passage in II Corinthians 13?

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Have you read the Book of Mormon? Do you even own a copy of it? Perhaps you could point out how you think it contradicts the Bible?

[aj4u]

Look up

Testament - Testify - Witness

We have the Old Testament and the New Testament which contains the gospel in it.; Now, we have another testament. I am sorry, it is not sitting right with me. Does the other testament (witness) have the gospel in it? What would the Apostle Paul say?

[aj4u]

No. The gospel is the same, the other testament helps clarify the testimony of Jesus and His gospel. Maybe you have read the passage in II Corinthians 13? Have you read the Book of Mormon? Do you even own a copy of it? Perhaps you could point out how you think it contradicts the Bible?

The gospel is the good news which is very clear to me. What part of it needed clarification to you?

This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”[a] 2 I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare— 3 since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. 4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.

Edited June 15, 2009 by aj4u

[john doe]

Does the other testament (witness) have the gospel in it? What would the Apostle Paul say?

Yes, the Book of Mormon has the Gospel of Jesus Christ in it. That's why it's called Another Testament. Paul would advise you to read it and pray sincerely about it.

[john doe]

The gospel is the good news which is very clear to me. What part of it needed clarification to you?

The chapters in Alma explaining faith were extremely meaningful to me. There are many great sermons contained in it.

Have you read it yet? Why are you so scared to read it? Are you afraid of being brainwashed by its contents? You keep reading all this stuff negative about it, why not read it for yourself and trust your own heart about it?

[aj4u]

Yes, I know the story behind the BOM and I have a copy!

[aj4u]

The chapters in Alma explaining faith were extremely meaningful to me. There are many great sermons contained in it.

Have you read it yet? Why are you so scared to read it? Are you afraid of being brainwashed by its contents? You keep reading all this stuff negative about it, why not read it for yourself and trust your own heart about it?

No, I will read it, but it would be helpful if you gave me something specific to read and look for.

[Guest TheLutheran]

Are you really serious in believing that link? The God Makers is an anti-Mormon cartoon making fun of some of our doctrine and so completely twisting it around it's not even funny.

It's all a falsehood and totally unbelievable.

I found the following quote in an article written by Robert L. Millet for the June 1994 Ensign entitled "Joseph Smith Among The Prophets" at lds.org:

"President Brigham Young uttered this bold statement: “Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians … that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ. … "

Is lds.org a reliable source?

[JohnnyRudick]

We have the Old Testament and the New Testament which contains the gospel in it.; Now, we have another testament. I am sorry, it is not sitting right with me. Does the other testament (witness) have the gospel in it? What would the Apostle Paul say?

He would say we have at least three witnesses to the Divinity and Authority of Christ?

Bro. Rudick

[pam]

Also according to lds.org

After we are resurrected, we will be brought before our Father in Heaven to be judged for the last time. This is called the Last Judgment. This last judgment will decide where we will go to live forever. We will be judged by the things we said and did and thought in this life. We will be judged by how well we followed Jesus’ teachings. We will be judged by records that have been kept both on this earth and in heaven. Our Father in Heaven will have Jesus judge us.

Ancient and modern scriptures frequently warn us not to judge others or be quick to find fault with them. (Matt. 7:1; Acts 10:28; Rom. 14:10, 13; D&C 20:54.) We are told that Christ is to be our judge (John 5:22; Acts 10:42; Rom. 14:10–12; James 4:12; Morm. 3:20), and he has even said that he is more concerned with saving us than judging us (John 12:47).

[Dravin]

Now, we have another testament. I am sorry, it is not sitting right with me.

That's okay the NT doesn't sit well with the Jews either.

Does the other testament (witness) have the gospel in it?

Yes, The Book of Mormon teaches the Gospel.

What would the Apostle Paul say?

Did you even read John Doe's post? He quoted him, though that's an example of what he has said, as for what he would said? I can very well see him saying much the same thing as the Lord told Nephi if you were to ask him now:

Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

[john doe]

No, I will read it, but it would be helpful if you gave me something specific to read and look for.

I would suggest you start at the beginning and read it straight through the first time. Then if you want to focus on certain topics, you can reread certain portions. Christ appears in 3rd Nephi, you will find many similarities to the sermons in the New Testament there. Alma, as I stated before has some great insights to faith. King Benjamin in Mosiah delivered a wonderful sermon on service and the proper role of leaders, both spiritual and political. The stories of the Army of Helaman and Captain Moroni are stirring and thought-provoking.

[ztodd]

Patience. You guys have grown up with these things, but AJ hasn't. So of course he doesn't understand yet on the same level as us.

We can't force him to understand- just answer his questions as he asks us.

"Turn the other cheek"... giving him a taste of his own medicine does not help. Instead let's just answer his questions and allow him to answer our questions, each in a more civilized manner.

[JohnnyRudick]

I found the following quote in an article written by Robert L. Millet for the June 1994 Ensign entitled "Joseph Smith Among The Prophets" at lds.org:

"President Brigham Young uttered this bold statement: “Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians … that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ. … "

Is lds.org a reliable source?

Yes LDS.ORG is a reliable source.

It is reliable in that we believe that Brigham Young taught that on at least one ocasion.

Yet again as has been pointed out before (over and over) this and other teachings that the opposition digs up

are not found in the Standard Works of the Church.

Not in the Bible

Not in the Book of Mormon

Not in the D&C

Not in the Pearl of Great Price

The teaching never "caught on":o

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 15, 2009 by JohnnyRudick

[pam]

I don't take everything written in the Journal of Discourses as gospel doctrine. They aren't scripture and many times were the opinions of the Prophets at the time. That's where the quote is taken from.

[aj4u]

Is this the part about faith?

17] And now my beloved brethren, do you believe these things? Behold, I say unto you, yea, I know that ye believe them; and the way that I know that ye believe them is by the manifestation of the Spirit which is in me. And now because your faith is strong concerning that, yea, concerning the things which I have spoken, great is my joy.

[18] For as I said unto you from the beginning, that I had much desire that ye were not in the state of dilemma like your brethren, even so I have found that my desires have been gratified.

[19] For I perceive that ye are in the paths of righteousness; I perceive that ye are in the path which leads to the kingdom of God; yea, I perceive that ye are making his paths straight.

[20] I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round.

Is this the part about faith you referred to?

[21] And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness.

[22] And now my beloved brethren, I have said these things unto you that I might awaken you to a sense of your duty to God, that ye may walk blameless before him, that ye may walk after the holy order of God, after which ye have been received.

[23] And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.

[24] And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.

[25] And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless, that ye may at last be brought to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the holy prophets who have been ever since the world began, having your garments spotless even as their garments are spotless, in the kingdom of heaven to go no more out.

[26] And now my beloved brethren, I have spoken these words unto you according to the Spirit which testifieth in me; and my soul doth exceedingly rejoice, because of the exceeding diligence and heed which ye have given unto my word.

[27] And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen.

Alma 8

[1] And now it came to pass that Alma returned from the land of Gideon, after having taught the people of Gideon many things which cannot be written, having established the order of the church, according as he had before done in the land of Zarahemla, yea, he returned to his own house at Zarahemla to rest himself from the labors which he had performed.

[2] And thus ended the ninth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

[3] And it came to pass in the commencement of the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, that Alma departed from thence and took his journey over into the land of Melek, on the west of the river Sidon, on the west by the borders of the wilderness.

[4] And he began to teach the people in the land of Melek according to the holy order of God, by which he had been called; and he began to teach the people throughout all the land of Melek.

[5] And it came to pass that the people came to him throughout all the borders of the land which was by the wilderness side. And they were baptized throughout all the land;

[6] So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days' journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah.

[7] Now it was the custom of the people of Nephi to call their lands, and their cities, and their villages, yea, even all their small villages, after the name of him who first possessed them; and thus it was with the land of Ammonihah.

[8] And it came to pass that when Alma had come to the city of Ammonihah he began to preach the word of God unto them.

[9] Now Satan had gotten great hold upon the hearts of the people of the city of Ammonihah; therefore they would not hearken unto the words of Alma.

[10] Nevertheless Alma labored much in the spirit, wrestling with God in mighty prayer, that he would pour out his Spirit upon the people who were in the city; that he would also grant that he might baptize them unto repentance.

[11] Nevertheless, they hardened their hearts, saying unto him: Behold, we know that thou art Alma; and we know that thou art high priest over the church which thou hast established in many parts of the land, according to your tradition; and we are not of thy church, and we do not believe in such foolish traditions.

[12] And now we know that because we are not of thy church we know that thou hast no power over us; and thou hast delivered up the judgment-seat unto Nephihah; therefore thou art not the chief judge over us.

[13] Now when the people had said this, and withstood all his words, and reviled him, and spit upon him, and caused that he should be cast out of their city, he departed thence and took his journey towards the city which was called Aaron.

[14] And it came to pass that while he was journeying thither, being weighed down with sorrow, wading through much tribulation and anguish of soul, because of the wickedness of the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, it came to pass while Alma was thus weighed down with sorrow, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto him, saying:

[15] Blessed art thou, Alma; therefore, lift up thy head and rejoice, for thou hast great cause to rejoice; for thou hast been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time which thou receivedst thy first message from him. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you.

[16] And behold, I am sent to command thee that thou return to the city of Ammonihah, and preach again unto the people of the city; yea, preach unto them. Yea, say unto them, except they repent the Lord God will destroy them.

[17] For behold, they do study at this time that they may destroy the liberty of thy people, (for thus saith the Lord) which is contrary to the statutes, and judgments, and commandments which he has given unto his people.

[18] Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah.

[19] And as he entered the city he was an hungered, and he said to a man: Will ye give to an humble servant of God something to eat?

[20] And the man said unto him: I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision: Thou shalt receive. Therefore, go with me into my house and I will impart unto thee of my food; and I know that thou wilt be a blessing unto me and my house.

[21] And it came to pass that the man received him into his house; and the man was called Amulek; and he brought forth bread and meat and set before Alma.

[22] And it came to pass that Alma ate bread and was filled; and he blessed Amulek and his house, and he gave thanks unto God.

[23] And after he had eaten and was filled he said unto Amulek: I am Alma, and am the high priest over the church of God throughout the land.

[24] And behold, I have been called to preach the word of God among all this people, according to the spirit of revelation and prophecy; and I was in this land and they would not receive me, but they cast me out and I was about to set my back towards this land forever.

[25] But behold, I have been commanded that I should turn again and prophesy unto this people, yea, and to testify against them concerning their iniquities.

[26] And now, Amulek, because thou hast fed me and taken me in, thou art blessed; for I was an hungered, for I had fasted many days.

[27] And Alma tarried many days with Amulek before he began to preach unto the people.

[28] And it came to pass that the people did wax more gross in their iniquities.

[29] And the word came to Alma, saying: Go; and also say unto my servant Amulek, go forth and prophesy unto this people, saying -- Repent ye, for thus saith the Lord, except ye repent I will visit this people in mine anger; yea, and I will not turn my fierce anger away.

[30] And Alma went forth, and also Amulek, among the people, to declare the words of God unto them; and they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

[31] And they had power given unto them, insomuch that they could not be confined in dungeons; neither was it possible that any man could slay them; nevertheless they did not exercise their power until they were bound in bands and cast into prison. Now, this was done that the Lord might show forth his power in them.

[john doe]

Yes LDS.ORG is a reliable source.

It is reliable in that we believe that Brigham Young taught that on at least one ocasion.

Yet again as has been pointed out before (over and over) this and other teachings that the opposition digs up are not found in the Standard Works of the Church.

Not in the Bible

Not in the Book of Mormon

Not in the D&C

Not in the Pearl of Great Price

The teaching never "caught on":o

Bro. Rudick

I don't know that it's that it never 'caught on', rather the teaching is not contained in any canonized work. Therefore it is not binding on us. While it may possibly be a true proposition, we are not obligated to defend it as doctrine. The Journal of Discourses is a record of sermons, but not all contained in it is binding on us. For some of it, the records may not have been entirely accurate. It's a nice reference, and fleshes out some early church ideas, but the Lord does not hold us liable to believe all of it.

[Carl62]

Please note that I have not attacked Carl's motives, sincerity or character. The things you (Carl62) accuse me of is the antithesis of my position. I am looking to build up people in Christ. Right now and from where I am standing, it looks like you are doing the tearing down.

My character is sincere in that I don't have any motives! The only thing I may be "guilty" of is trying to get rid of somebody whose ONLY motive here is to tear our church down! AND YES, I DON'T CARE HOW YOU TRY TO SPIN IT, YOU KNOW THAT IS YOUR ULTIMATE GOAL!!! When you start trying to tear us down by quoting anti-mormon garbage like "The Godmakers", I know where this is going, and FAST. Oh, and since your now quoting scripture on me to say that God will not dwell in a Temple made of bare hands, then how do you explain Jesus's love and passion for the Temple in Jerusalem when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers and drove the merchants out. Mark 11:17 says that He told them "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer?' but ye have made it a den of thieves." I have nothing against you personally AJ because to be quite frank, I don't know you other than the past two threads. But all I know is from what I've read and the tone from a lot of your posts and threads have yes, been very negative. Just look at the titles of the two past threads you've started: "Does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible?" and "Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?" I mean, come on! Who's the one being negative again? Huh? Who? I can assure you and anybody who knows me knows that I am not a negative person. When it comes to talking about Jesus Christ and His gospel, I will be more than glad to talk to ANYONE for however long they want. It's a suject I never get tired of.:) But when I slowly sense that somebody is coming along like a sheep in wolves clothing to slowly erode away at something I dearly love like the gospel, the only response I can give is the very same one that Jesus unfortunately even had to tell his beloved disciple Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan". Mark 8:33