Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?

[Palerider]

some fish don't need any!

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[aj4u]

It appears to me that your methods of discernment are very similar to the methods of the Pharisees and Scribes that were used to condemn Jesus and judge him worthy of death.

Point1. The things of G-d (including scripture) will appear contradictory and foolish except understood through the spirit of G-d. Since the vast majority of the world (especially the wise and scholarly) tends to rely on philosophies of man (AKA ancient experts such as the example of the Scribes and Pharisees) the proper view as inspired by G-d will appear contradictory and foolish to most of the world’s religious experts.

Point2. Jesus taught that a tree (note that trees are often used in scripture as a symbolic reference to man) be understood not by their doctrine but by their deeds. In other words if someone is loving and compassionate towards others even if they are a Samaritan (devout in false religious doctrines) that they are better examples of the truths of G-d than a Priest or Levite (devout in correct religious doctrines) but are not compassionate.

The Traveler

The verse you are referring to is "the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness, but unto us that are saved (Being saved) it is the power of God." I am saved. I have the gift of etenral life and have been born again. I have love and faith that works by love. I want to see others out of deception and knowing that they too can have eternal life. I expect to be judged for sharing the truth of the gospel and rejoice in it. Unlike the religious rulers of Jesus time, I am not willing to stone those who do not see the Scripture as I do, but that doesn't stop me from trying to share the love of the truth. I have other things to do with my time, but people and their souls is God's business. As Paul states: "Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel." I am living up the the light God has given me. Can you still blame me for that?

[mountthepavement]

Yes, but they would never come against the inspired ancient text! Man inspired of God wrote these Manuscripts, and God does not change with time. His word is established forever. Those who don't believe that are push or tossed around like the waves of the sea with no stabilizing ballast. Those who refuse the love of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they may believe a lie.

What do you think is the difference between your beliefs and LDS, or what is the important difference?

Also, do you think god "evolved" in some sense in his relationship with humanity starting from the OT onwards?

[aj4u]

First of all, EVERYONE CALM DOWN!! I don't think that AJ is trying to pick a fight and if they are, it isn't readily apparent. I know that as a religion we're accustomed to being verbally assaulted for our beliefs, but I just don't believe that is the case here. I think it is a valid question and a valid topic for discussion.

This is one of many items that Christian Traditionalism has deemed to be the will of God, even though they have absolutely no basis for their conclusion. It's simply a matter of taking the sense of morality according to one non-Biblical tradition or another and imposing it upon Christendom. We know from internal textual evidence that the birth of Christ was in the Spring and not anywhere near the Winter Solstice. This is another case of taking non-Biblical Traditions and implementing them into Christianity. Many Pagan faiths had significant observances at the Winter Solstice, so it amounts to inserting a Christian holiday to make it easier for those pagan peoples to convert to Christianity. The self-contradicting aspect of the Trinity Doctrine (three beings that are one being and three at the same time) bears better resemblance to the Greek Mysteries than it does to anything in the Bible. Much of the ritualism that developed over time is completely non-Biblical as well, but bears a lot of resemblance to pagan rituals. Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny are entirely pagan in their origins. Rabbits and eggs are symbols of fertility and are directly borrowed from fertility holidays and observances -- perfect for the Springtime. Christmas Trees, Holly, Mistletoe and other evergreen things were used by many pagan religions to remind the Sun to come back and turn the world green again.

One thing that I would ask: If you have something from LDS writings or sermons, etc, that you believe to be contradictory, please study it in greater depth and read around it. Simply put, try to be sure that the LDS source really is contradicting things and be sure that the writer/speaker has authority to make official statements for the LDS Church. If you still feel it is contradictory, then share it.

Considering the hostile response, I can understand your caution.

Thank you that was insightfull.

[mountthepavement]

Can you still blame me for that?

Do you think it is better to apologize for offending someone or bringing an occasion for offense or to simply warn them not to be offended, Christianly speaking?

[Traveler]

The verse you are referring to is "the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness, but unto us that are saved (Being saved) it is the power of God." I am saved. I have the gift of etenral life and have been born again. I have love and faith that works by love. I want to see others out of deception and knowing that they too can have eternal life. I expect to be judged for sharing the truth of the gospel and rejoice in it. Unlike the religious rulers of Jesus time, I am not willing to stone those who do not see the Scripture as I do, but that doesn't stop me from trying to share the love of the truth. I have other things to do with my time, but people and their souls is God's business. As Paul states: "Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel." I am living up the the light God has given me. Can you still blame me for that?

Wrong scripture – try:

1 Cor 2:11-14 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again your arguments look so much like the arguments of the Scribes and Pharisees that honored G-d with their mouths and claimed to be saved because they were the children of the covenant. And yes – they too wanted all to believe as they did and so they taught their doctrine. Their arguments were always about doctrine and never about behavior.

So I ask you what deeds have the LDS done that you think we are not of G-d? - So that you have come to correct us?

The Traveler

[aj4u]

What do you think is the difference between your beliefs and LDS, or what is the important difference?

Well, these are excellent questions. I am not sure where to begin. There are certain things that God has spoken in the Bible that are not considered to be translational errors that appear as contradictions to Christians like me in LDS belief. Such as "As man is God once was; as God is man may become" Is.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. There are other such verses that contadict the LDS statement. Other Biblical verses that contradict it are "God is Spirit..." I do not believe God was just referring to hand made idols of wood and stone. God was referring to deep spiritual idolatry of one's belief that doesn't necessarily involve hand made idols as well. Rev. 3: 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

All the churches God spoke to in Rev. needed some refining, but they are still His churches. Why would you think that the LDS church is the only true Church?

Also, do you think god "evolved" in some sense in his relationship with humanity starting from the OT onwards?

Yes, but His word is established forever. It used to be that Israel would have to follows laws and rules and make scrafices, But Jesus is the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. He stands at the door of our heart and knocks saying, "If any man hears my voice and opens the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me" I have had this experience have you? Edited June 13, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

I am God's witness to you!

[JohnnyRudick]

We can always search out the correct translation. No one says we have to follow the translations of the KJV, NIV or the many others.

What are those core beliefs and how well do they line up the the proper translation of the Bible?

What Scriptures are you referring to, and what few contradictions do you find in core doctrine? Are they in the BOM or the Bible or both?

There you go again inferring that you have or can get your hands on the originals.

Where are these originals?

Where may I get a copy of the originals and not a version of a text or other.

You obviously have connections that I have never heard of or any of my professors I have ever had or knew.

Bro. Rudick

[MikeUpton]

I am God's witness to you!

All our base are belong to you

[JohnnyRudick]

No, but I believe it is more accessible than the golden plates.

We have never said we have to magically appear the Golden Plates as you have claimed that the originals somehow will magically appear if you need to correct a supposed contradiction.

Needing the Golden Plates is a straw man to kick at because we have a living Prophet.

Bro. Rudick

Edited June 13, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spelling;)

[Traveler]

I am God's witness to you!

By example as was Jesus or by declaration of the Law (scriptures) as were the Pharisees and Scribes?

The Traveler

[Seanette]

I am God's witness to you!

You're a prophet or an apostle?

[dnc76v22]

Oh no, not again! LOL Why does the song "Will It Go 'Round In Circles" come to mind when thinking about this thread.

[ztodd]

Well, these are excellent questions. I am not sure where to begin. There are certain things that God has spoken in the Bible that are not considered to be translational errors that appear as contradictions to Christians like me in LDS belief. Such as "As man is God once was; as God is man may become" Is.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

...

For the Isaiah verse, see this link - it may provide some new insights.

"No God beside me" - FAIRMormon

First thing to know is that we are not left to ourselves to interpret the bible. We have modern prophets to help with that. So we know that this verse in Isaiah needs to be interpreted differently than you suggest.

I admit this is curious language to use by today's standards if it doesn't mean what you proposed.

But... borrowing from the site I referenced above, there are these scriptures -

• Among all the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works (Ps. 86:8).

• God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment (ESV Ps. 82:1).

So it appears from these verses that there are other gods besides Jehovah. And this is confirmed by modern revelation.

And from Deification of man - FAIRMormon -

The first thing we must realize when we study this principle is that The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him. [2]

A belief in human deification does not mean that the LDS believe their worship is or will be properly directed at anyone but God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Was this helpful?

[aj4u]

We have never said we have to magically appear the Golden Plates as you have claimed that the originals somehow will magically appear if you need to correct a supposed contradiction.

Needing the Golden Plates is a straw man to kick at because we have a living Prophet.

Bro. Rudick

Okay, I have a living prophet too!

[aj4u]

For the Isaiah verse, see this link - it may provide some new insights.

"No God beside me" - FAIRMormon

First thing to know is that we are not left to ourselves to interpret the bible. We have modern prophets to help with that. So we know that this verse in Isaiah needs to be interpreted differently than you suggest.

I admit this is curious language to use by today's standards if it doesn't mean what you proposed.

But... borrowing from the site I referenced above, there are these scriptures -

• Among all the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works (Ps. 86:8).

• God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment (ESV Ps. 82:1).

So it appears from these verses that there are other gods besides Jehovah. And this is confirmed by modern revelation.

And from Deification of man - FAIRMormon -

The first thing we must realize when we study this principle is that The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him. [2]

A belief in human deification does not mean that the LDS believe their worship is or will be properly directed at anyone but God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Was this helpful?

Well, this is really going to be tough. You have a point, but what has really changed since Joseph Smith's visions accept a new division and another church that is contrary to the others. I see no restoration of the gospel or the body of Christ. All I see is many contradictions being cleverly and conveniently explained away from the Bible. I have a living prophet. Jesus is who He is. I also have the Spirit of God that leads me into all truth and He will show me great and wonderful things I know not and prepare me for what I am not ready for yet. I just don't need another dose of deception. I have been there and done that.

[Traveler]

Well, these are excellent questions. I am not sure where to begin. There are certain things that God has spoken in the Bible that are not considered to be translational errors that appear as contradictions to Christians like me in LDS belief. Such as "As man is God once was; as God is man may become" Is.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. There are other such verses that contadict the LDS statement.

.....

Again - your problem is that you use the wisdom of the Scribes and Pharisees and not the spirit of G-d to understand the things of G-d.

The simple truth is that Jesus Christ is the example of G-d to man. So to understand the statement let us begin:

“As man is G-d once was”. This means that as man is – Jesus once lived on this earth.

Then ---

“As G-d is man may become”. This means that as Jesus now is – that is that Jesus has been resurrected and lifted up in glory to the right hand of the Father – so also man may be resurrected and lifted up in glory to be on the right hand of the Father.

I feel badly that like the Scribes and Pharisees you go through such great lengths with the scriptures to find what you think is a contradiction. The statement you dislike is such a simple truth and needs nothing but the spirit of G-d to understand it. To be honest - I do not see how anyone can call themself a Christian and born again follower of Christ and denounce this very important notion.

The Traveler

[aj4u]

Yes, that is hepful I am saving it to my favorites.

[Elgama]

Are all true believers prophets or "revelators" to a degree?

Well I don't think you need to be Christian to have a relationship with God for me a true believer is anyone who follows God's direction in their life.

I am a Child of God as such have a relationship with Him, He has shown great wisdom and as such I would be nuts to listen to a mortal human or a book instead UNLESS he OK's it as a means to me growing closer to Him

-Charley

[Elgama]

Originally Posted by aj4u View Post

I am God's witness to you!

Why do I need you as a witness when I can interact with God myself?

-Charley

[aj4u]

Again - your problem is that you use the wisdom of the Scribes and Pharisees and not the spirit of G-d to understand the things of G-d.

The simple truth is that Jesus Christ is the example of G-d to man. So to understand the statement let us begin:

“As man is G-d once was”. This means that as man is – Jesus once lived on this earth.

Then ---

“As G-d is man may become”. This means that as Jesus now is – that is that Jesus has been resurrected and lifted up in glory to the right hand of the Father – so also man may be resurrected and lifted up in glory to be on the right hand of the Father.

I feel badly that like the Scribes and Pharisees you go through such great lengths with the scriptures to find what you think is a contradiction. The statement you dislike is such a simple truth and needs nothing but the spirit of G-d to understand it. To be honest - I do not see how anyone can call themself a Christian and born again follower of Christ and denounce this very important notion.

The Traveler

I feel a pulling, but I know it is the devil. I need to back off a little this is dangerous stuff.

[pam]

Oh no, not again! LOL Why does the song "Will It Go 'Round In Circles" come to mind when thinking about this thread.

And the wheels on the bus go round and round.

[aj4u]

Why do I need you as a witness when I can interact with God myself?

-Charley

You wouldn't, but who is Jesus to you?

[pam]

:offtopic:You are speaking of the evolution of prophecy, but look at the title of the thread. Maybe we could bring this on track by asking how do you know that prophets are from God? Not all that claim to be spokesman for God are from God. One way I judge prophets is by what they say and how it lines up with Scriptures and whether or not their prophecies come to pass. If they contradict the word in the Holy Bible and their prophecy fails, that is a red flag. :ohnoyoudont:If someone fails to see the flag, they are in deep trouble and deception.

In defense of Seanette this was said in an earlier post by mountthepavement..so she was not off topic.

what does the evolution of prophecy mean to everyone?