Are there contradictions in the Mormon writings?

[john doe]

My mistake. Fishing means something different to me than it does for you. Why are you able to get away with insulting people? Is it because you are a moderator or you don't consider me people?

Oh, do you consider it insulting to call you confused? Well, You are. I call it the way I see it. You have made little sense since you have arrived here. That tells me that you don't know what you're talking about. You have little clue as to what we believe, but when we post real slowly so you can understand you start talking about backing away from logic because 'it's from the devil'. I'm insulted that you would call our doctrine of the devil. Maybe it's you that has been doing the insulting around here.

[aj4u]

Wow AJ! You've got a real party going on in #121. Who's the band? Are they any good? So why weren't we invited?:)

You are all invited. It is on me

[aj4u]

for me a person becomes a witness when God guides me that way, they are not a witness because they proclaim they are - even with Jesus, Heavenly Father bears witness of him. And for me its the same with any word I receive of God's it is proceeded by the still small voice saying something along the lines of this is my beloved.. hear them

We can have too many people who place themselves above God and proclaim themselves as witnesses. We can never have too much guidance from God in our lives

I can use many adjectives and scriptural meanings etc, but the most important to me is the companionship, the wise guide in my life, the personal response, someone I can lean on and rely on.

The atonement is important but its important because Jesus lives and I love Him without that relationship in 2009 my Faith and Knowledge would be nothing

Who is He to you?

-Charley

Jesus is my Creator, my Everlasting Father, my Life, my Hope, my joy, Lover of my soul, my King my, Wonderful counselor, my Prince of Prince, my Savior, my Rock, the Door to my salvation, He is the Author and Finisher of my faith, my God, The Truth The Life and The Way, The One who justifies me and presents me blameless on the day of judgment; My healer and the forgiver of my sins and in Him I am totally complete, acceptable and pleasing in God’s sight. I hope that answers your question. Edited June 14, 2009 by aj4u

[JohnnyRudick]

I cannot say that you don't have any truth because that wouldn't be true, but neither can you say the same about me.

You hold the truth that is true.

You also hold the false hoods planted in the truth from some unscrupulous scribes starting about 150 AD and you even at time turn to the deliberate interpolations and reintroductions of the errors and misconceptions salted into the Scriptures anew with the NIV.

I am not saying that the King James Bible is totally with out error but it is certainly the best English copy we have today as the modern translators use every chance they get to salt the "oldest" and "best", New and Improved per-version or manuscript they can find.

I say, even if you do not "go LDS", stick and learn to read the KIng James Bible.

It will do you the best job of bringing you the partial view of what God has reveled to man, and even glimpse of what is in store for today.

Remember, God did lead other sheep to the farther most parts of the earth and He did not abandon them either.

The Book of Mormon tells us of Sheep He led from the Tower of Babel that ended up in this world.

Also others from the land of Jerusalem in about 600 BC and led them also to this world.

It is a shame to be without what God has revealed to them when He has made it available to the world.

Not to forget the leadership today just as God placed Apostles and the like in His Church in the beginning, He still has the same organization today.

Yes it is modified to suit the needs of today's world but the authority given to the Apostles in that day is in need today as well as it is the same church.

If you have studied the Bible as a good Christian should, you know of which verses I speak.

You also know of the subtle differences between the various versions of the Bible.

Sometimes the meanings can be at great odds with each other even to the point of saying that the other one shouldn't be there.

The quotes from the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price lets us know which of the leading Greek texts translates into a more accurate English Bible.

Getting late

Bro. Rudick

[aj4u]

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

[aj4u]

You hold the truth that is true.

You also hold the false hoods planted in the truth from some unscrupulous scribes starting about 150 AD and you even at time turn to the deliberate interpolations and reintroductions of the errors and misconceptions salted into the Scriptures anew with the NIV.

I am not saying that the King James Bible is totally with out error but it is certainly the best English copy we have today as the modern translators use every chance they get to salt the "oldest" and "best", New and Improved per-version or manuscript they can find.

I say, even if you do not "go LDS", stick and learn to read the KIng James Bible.

It will do you the best job of bringing you the partial view of what God has reveled to man, and even glimpse of what is in store for today.

Remember, God did lead other sheep to the farther most parts of the earth and He did not abandon them either.

The Book of Mormon tells us of Sheep He led from the Tower of Babel that ended up in this world.

Also others from the land of Jerusalem in about 600 BC and led them also to this world.

It is a shame to be without what God has revealed to them when He has made it available to the world.

Not to forget the leadership today just as God placed Apostles and the like in His Church in the beginning, He still has the same organization today.

Yes it is modified to suit the needs of today's world but the authority given to the Apostles in that day is in need today as well as it is the same church.

If you have studied the Bible as a good Christian should, you know of which verses I speak.

You also know of the subtle differences between the various versions of the Bible.

Sometimes the meanings can be at great odds with each other even to the point of saying that the other one shouldn't be there.

The quotes from the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price lets us know which of the leading Greek texts translates into a more accurate English Bible.

Getting late

Bro. Rudick

I don't think the KJV is the best. It has its equal share of translational errors as most Bibles including the NIV. You say I "Hold the false hoods planted in the truth from some unscrupulous scribes.." Well, I am sure I have some misconceptions and error in certain areas. I think all faiths have a measure of that, but some of those errors make the difference between spiritual life and death and some don't, but I can tell you, that is not where my error lies! To know Jesus is to have eternal life. I know Him and want to make Him known!

[Traveler]

I cannot say that you don't have any truth because that wouldn't be true, but neither can you say the same about me.

This is not correct because it relies on the understanding of men. The key to truth is not as much in logic or doctrine but lies in the essence of what something is. This is because a duck is not what an expert says is a duck but in what a duck is. Often it is said if it walks like and duck and quacks like a duck then without conclusive demonstration to the contrary – it is a duck.

So how does one identify a disciple of Christ? I submit that there is not one instance in scripture where the means was scripture. When I was young my father said that if you want to know what is person is – observe them when they do not have to be anybody.

If you cannot figure out what a person is until they tell you then you are being deceived. Or as Jesus said, “As a man thinks in his heart so is he.”

The way to know if truth is among the “Mormons” is to come among us and see. See how we prepare our youth, see how we prepare our missionaries, see how we prepare our single members for parenthood and a marriage that will never end, see how we care for those among us that need help, see how we prepare our ministers of relief and priests to perform sacred ordinances, see how we fast and give offerings for the poor, see how we strive to visit every member every month to help with physical and spiritual needs and see how we have turned our hearts towards our fathers to bring the hope of Christ to those that died without knowing of him.

A redound critic of Christianity once said that Christians are like a heard of geese that waddle around in the mud and once every seven days they get together to talk about flying. And when they are done talking they waddle back home through the mud.

Talk is cheap and preaching alone does not a disciple make. It is most unfortunate that the meaning of “the Word of G-d” is thought of by so many to describe nothing more than preaching. If that was all that is needed to be a disciple – Jesus would have never taught the parable of the Good Samaritan. If someone’s doctrine does not help them behave better (more like G-d himself) than someone without that doctrine then that doctrine is not true – because if a doctrine is true then it will set that believer free in the same manner that G-d is free. It is not a hearer of the Word but the doer of the Word that is a disciple.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

Do you believe that Mormons believe it?

[Traveler]

I don't think the KJV is the best. It has its equal share of translational errors as most Bibles including the NIV. You say I "Hold the false hoods planted in the truth from some unscrupulous scribes.." Well, I am sure I have some misconceptions and error in certain areas. I think all faiths have a measure of that, but some of those errors make the difference between spiritual life and death and some don't, but I can tell you, that is not where my error lies! To know Jesus is to have eternal life. I know Him and want to make Him known!

If you know him you will keep his commandments. If you do not keep his commandments then what you make known of him is a lie. I know of no other religion that assist all it members in keeping the commandments of Christ more consistently world wide than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The Traveler

[Islander]

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

Where did you hear that?

[dnc76v22]

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

- Matthew 19:28

Would you not believe there are others, that Jesus has appointed to be judges?

[rameumptom]

:offtopic:You are speaking of the evolution of prophecy, but look at the title of the thread. Maybe we could bring this on track by asking how do you know that prophets are from God? Not all that claim to be spokesman for God are from God. One way I judge prophets is by what they say and how it lines up with Scriptures and whether or not their prophecies come to pass. If they contradict the word in the Holy Bible and their prophecy fails, that is a red flag. :ohnoyoudont:If someone fails to see the flag, they are in deep trouble and deception.

And I say that your concept is bogus. Why? Because even Jesus Christ made prophecies that did not come to pass! Are you going to reject him, because in your view he would be a false prophet?

Clearly, if there are contradictions in the Bible, and you accept it; then there should be given the same leeway to the LDS writings? Otherwise, hypocrisy is slipping into your posts.

The majority of Joseph Smith's prophecies have come true, or are coming true. Many things in the Book of Mormon have shown to be authentic, which Joseph could not have known in his day. Joseph used a name in the Book of Moses in reference to Enoch. Where else is that found? Only in the Dead Sea Scrolls fragment of Enoch!

Joseph's 1832 prophecy on War has been very faithfully coming to pass: Civil War, World War, fall of Socialism, rising up of Muslims against the Gentile nations (Europe and America).

Our modern prophets have given us prophecies and programs that made little sense in the day they were given, but much sense decades later. Our Family Home Evening program began in the 1950s, when families were doing fine. But it is a very necessary program today to help save families from external influences.

Pres Hinckley told us over a decade ago to get out of debt. He talked about the Great Depression and the great famine in Egypt predicted in Pharaoh's dream during Joseph's time. Those who listened to the prophet, were not devastated by the current economic crisis.

I could go on with many instances like this. Perhaps you could be fair enough to start a thread on "Are there correct teachings and prophecies in Mormon writings?"

As I said, if you declare a person a false prophet over one bad prophecy, then you'd better become an atheist, because Jesus made at least one bad prophecy. If you'd like to read some of them, read Prof Bart Ehrman's "Jesus, Interrupted." Of course, that presumes you actually read stuff to learn about the things you talk about.

And going to the "original" Hebrew and Greek is impossible. There are no originals. There are only copies of copies. There are so many differences in the various ancient New Testament versions, that Bart Ehrman states there are more differences than there are words in the Bible! And this includes things that were intentionally put into the Bible by later people, such as the Johannine Comma.

As Snow mentioned, the Book of John was probably not written by the apostle John (in fact, it does not tell us who wrote it, but this was a later presumption by Christians). The book was written at least 90 years after Jesus' birth. Clearly the stories and sermons in it were not the original, exact words of Jesus and his apostles. There were oral stories, and understandings about Jesus, which by then also included Hellenistic interpolations. Figuring out what was original, and what was added later is a very difficult task, even for the best of scholars.

For this reason, we have prophets today. They help us to know God's will for today. The doctrines they give us help us to know Christ and his will better than other Christians do.

While traditional Christians are fighting over what constitutes doctrine of Christ, Mormons are generally in step with their leaders on doctrine. Why? Because we have modern prophets to guide us, and the other Christian sects do not.

[Islander]

The argument is useless when some already made up their minds. That seems to be the MO. There is no intent to engage in inquiry, just ill prepared argumentation.

[pam]

Do Mormons believe they need the permission of Joseph Smith to enter the highest heaven?

Nope

[aj4u]

This is not correct because it relies on the understanding of men. The key to truth is not as much in logic or doctrine but lies in the essence of what something is. This is because a duck is not what an expert says is a duck but in what a duck is. Often it is said if it walks like and duck and quacks like a duck then without conclusive demonstration to the contrary – it is a duck.

So how does one identify a disciple of Christ? I submit that there is not one instance in scripture where the means was scripture. When I was young my father said that if you want to know what is person is – observe them when they do not have to be anybody.

If you cannot figure out what a person is until they tell you then you are being deceived. Or as Jesus said, “As a man thinks in his heart so is he.”

The way to know if truth is among the “Mormons” is to come among us and see. See how we prepare our youth, see how we prepare our missionaries, see how we prepare our single members for parenthood and a marriage that will never end, see how we care for those among us that need help, see how we prepare our ministers of relief and priests to perform sacred ordinances, see how we fast and give offerings for the poor, see how we strive to visit every member every month to help with physical and spiritual needs and see how we have turned our hearts towards our fathers to bring the hope of Christ to those that died without knowing of him.

A redound critic of Christianity once said that Christians are like a heard of geese that waddle around in the mud and once every seven days they get together to talk about flying. And when they are done talking they waddle back home through the mud.

Talk is cheap and preaching alone does not a disciple make. It is most unfortunate that the meaning of “the Word of G-d” is thought of by so many to describe nothing more than preaching. If that was all that is needed to be a disciple – Jesus would have never taught the parable of the Good Samaritan. If someone’s doctrine does not help them behave better (more like G-d himself) than someone without that doctrine then that doctrine is not true – because if a doctrine is true then it will set that believer free in the same manner that G-d is free. It is not a hearer of the Word but the doer of the Word that is a disciple.

The Traveler

Thanks traveler:

That was good. I agree. I guess you could have summed all you said with the Bible quote "Ye shall know them by their fruits" However, it is a bit more involved then you say still. We can go to certain communities or groups of people that are very loving and helpful toward each other. There you will find unity and people helping each other as if they were helping themselves. But there are groups doing this in the form of cults, people groups, tribes, sects of all sought that don't believe or know Jesus at all. So what good is unity without Truth? It benefits them for the here and now, but what about there eternal soul, what about the here after. I have seen JWs helping one another and being loving toward us, but they are a cult who doesn't know Jesus even though they profess to be Christians. I am sure you have had people cut down your belief in horrible ways. I have had it happen to me. Nasty things were said. Of course i didn't receive it, but I was still in deception. I thank God that I am out of the cult I was once part of, but they too had the type of fellowship you were speaking of. That is why people joined the group. My friend, we cannot appreciate God's Mercy until we have know the Devils justice.

Edited June 14, 2009 by aj4u

[aj4u]

Talk is cheap but it is all we have on this forum

[pam]

Thanks traveler:

That was good. I agree. I guess you could have summed all you said with the Bible quote "Ye shall know them by their fruits" However, it is a bit more involved then you say still. We can go to certain communities or groups of people that are very loving and helpful toward each other. There you will find unity and people helping each other as if they were helping themselves. But there are groups doing this in the form of cults, people groups, tribes, sects of all sought that don't believe or know Jesus at all. So what good is unity without Truth? It benefits them for the here and now, but what about there eternal soul, what about the here after. I have seen JWs helping one another and being loving toward us, but they are a cult who doesn't know Jesus even though they profess to be Christians. I am sure you have had people cut down your belief in horrible ways. I have had it happen to me. Nasty things were said. Of course i didn't receive it, but I was still in deception. I thank God that I am out of the cult I was once part of, but they too had the type of fellowship you were speaking of. That is why people joined the COG. My friend, we cannot appreciate God's Mercy until we have know the Devils justice.

You are correct, there are a great many good and wonderful people that have not had the opportunity to know Christ. That's why we, as LDS, believe they will have the opportunity in the next life to learn about him, to learn about the plan of salvation that is set out for all of us. We also believe they will have the opportunity to reject or accept it.

That's why temples are of such great importance to us. We can (by proxy) perform ordinances such as baptism for those that accept the Gospel and accept Christ in the next life.

[aj4u]

Nope

Thanks I am trying to clear up some misconceptions.

[Elgama]

Jesus is my Creator, my Everlasting Father, my Life, my Hope, my joy, Lover of my soul, my King my, Wonderful counselor, my Prince of Prince, my Savior, my Rock, the Door to my salvation, He is the Author and Finisher of my faith, my God, The Truth The Life and The Way, The One who justifies me and presents me blameless on the day of judgment; My healer and the forgiver of my sins and in Him I am totally complete, acceptable and pleasing in God’s sight. I hope that answers your question.

sort of but guess I just find it very impersonal and cold the way you describe Him, for me my relationship with God is one to one and it comes before any scriptural. But it does in many ways increase my understanding of your position

For me your description is like a lover using poetry instead of their own words to express their feelings

-Charley

[aj4u]

Do you believe that Mormons believe it?

I was sent a link from a member on the forum that said they do believe that, but Pam tells me you don't. So, I will have to take her word for it and check my reading :huh:comprehension. The last thing I wnt to do is believe something that is not true of you.

[aj4u]

sort of but guess I just find it very impersonal and cold the way you describe Him, for me my relationship with God is one to one and it comes before any scriptural. But it does in many ways increase my understanding of your position

For me your description is like a lover using poetry instead of their own words to express their feelings

-Charley

You threading on my pearls. :taz:I will be careful for the next time.

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't think the KJV is the best. It has its equal share of translational errors as most Bibles including the NIV. You say I "Hold the false hoods planted in the truth from some unscrupulous scribes.." Well, I am sure I have some misconceptions and error in certain areas. I think all faiths have a measure of that, but some of those errors make the difference between spiritual life and death and some don't, but I can tell you, that is not where my error lies! To know Jesus is to have eternal life. I know Him and want to make Him known!

I have told you why I can believe it over the other versions of this Bible.

I have told you in other threads of the history of the texts of the bibles you depend on for your information of Jesus Christ you believe in.

You have told me that you just think a blanket statement that comes out to "Well they are all about the same"

Kinda like the statement said by some, "Well we are all getting to the same place just taking different roads."

You are confused because of the pollutions of men placed in the versions of bibles you and the rest of Christianity try to have faith in

and they are all shifting sands.

Stand on the solid Rock of Revelation of a true Prophet of God

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art

thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it

unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,

and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell

shall not prevail against it.

Bro. Rudick

[pam]

I was sent a link from a member on the forum that said they do believe that, but Pam tells me you don't. So, I will have to take her word for it and check my reading :huh:comprehension. The last thing I wnt to do is believe something that is not true of you.

Let me clarify. I say nope because I have never been taught that Joseph Smith specifically would have the ultimate say in what "glory" of heaven I am assigned or go to.

Would you mind sharing the link that was provided to you? I would like to read it myself.

I don't mind admitting when I am shown that I'm wrong.

[aj4u]

If you know him you will keep his commandments. If you do not keep his commandments then what you make known of him is a lie. I know of no other religion that assist all it members in keeping the commandments of Christ more consistently world wide than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The Traveler

That is what i said in my group. We forsook all we had to the disciples in our group. I had thousands in the bank, a new car and many others stored up goods and relationship with my family. I left all to go into all the world to follow Christ by living in the street passing out literature witnessing every day staying with who ever would take us in. Warning and pleading with people to get right with God cause were living in the last days. With an end-prophet leading the way. My family forsook me for leaving them to follow Jesus. My brothers hated me. I did all that for a cult that professed to be end-time prophets. We would dress in sadd clothe and ashes with rods making a scene that would turn any head singing and playing songs on street corners doing anything and every thing to win a soul. We did this not for two years. I did it for 6 years before I realized I was deceived. My wife did it for 10. We were living out Acts literally. After all I went through, I have learned that my services for God in that cult couldn't match up to what others are giving for Christ across the globe today. If you think LDS are the only ones pouring out for God that is a delusion in itself alone? Edited June 14, 2009 by aj4u

[Elgama]

You threading on my pearls. :taz:I will be careful for the next time.

sorry if offended I do appreciate its important to you to see Him that way guess I don't understand the lack of personal warmth it could merely be the way it comes across in print.

-Charley