Doctrine & Covenants 130:21

[ErikJohnson]

I’m curious how LDS here understand D&C 130:21—

“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.”

First off, does it really mean what it says: Any blessing? And if so, can God change his mind and grant blessings regardless of obedience to LDS law—even when someone disobeys to the point of apostasy?

I think of my own circumstances prior to my departure from the LDS Church. I was one of those misfits in the “Single Adult” program (some of you may shudder instinctively when you see those words—I understand, completely). I was active and tithe-paying, but no real knowledge of God, no prospects, deeply conflicted over doctrinal matters, and permanently stuck in my rut (and I’d still be there if God hadn’t willed otherwise). And in the 3 years following my official resignation, God blessed me with a wife and then a child and along the way made us part of an amazing Christian community here in Seattle.

If D&C 130:21 was true at face value—it doesn’t seem like I could have been blessed at all, let alone in such great abundance. Yet that’s exactly what happened. To me, it’s evidence of a God of Grace—not one of quid-pro-quo. But the verse very strongly implies the latter.

What do LDS say? Could D&C 130:21 be wrong or not applicable to every blessing in every situation?

--Erik

[Dravin]

If D&C 130:21 was true at face value—it doesn’t seem like I could have been blessed at all, let alone in such great abundance.

While I am out on a limb here, I have a hard time believing that you have failed to keep any commandments since you've left the Church. Your premise is flawed.

[Hemidakota]

To add fairness and allow it to be more direct from General Authorities of the past, here is the quotes on this subject - verse 20-21

Apostle Orson F. Whitney - It is not for man to sit in judgment upon the decrees of the Almighty. It is his duty to obey. We are told by the Prophet Joseph Smith that it is on the principle of obedience that we receive all our blessings. [sec. 130:20-21, quoted.] . . .

He [Abraham] was commanded to slay his son Isaac; and though it doubtless wrung his heart to make the sacrifice, he was willing, and was about to make it, when he received, from the same source, another command suspending the former behest, and requiring of him that he lay not his hand upon the lad. [Gen. 22:1-14.] Abraham would have carried out the first commandment, had he not received the second. And had he not been willing he would have been a transgressor; but, having received a commandment not to do the thing that had been commanded, if he had gone on willfully and disobeyed the later requirement, he would have been a transgressor. Nor would the Giver of those commandments have been inconsistent. "My word is my law, saith the Lord." He has a right to require one thing today and another thing tomorrow, and the latest word that comes from Him is the word that his people must obey.

This is what it means to "live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." [Matt. 15:18.] We cannot justify ourselves in living by that particular part of the word that appeals to us, the part that we desire to obey, but must be willing to make sacrifices. Sometimes the sacrifice is involved in the doing of a deed and sometimes in leaving it undone. We do not take our commands from the Bible. We are not governed by the gospel as revealed to the Nephites. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times, and have a right to receive divine revelation here and now and this is our guide, our law, and we must be governed, thereby. No man can stand up today in this Church and justify himself in any course by pleading what the Nephites did or what the Jews did or did not do. The vital question with us is: What does God require of the Latter-day Saints? We have as much right to the word of the Lord as had the Nephites, the Jews, or the early Christians. If this is not true, Mormonism is a sham and is not what it claims to be.

In the month of January, 1847, the Latter-day Saints were encamped upon the banks of the Missouri river. They had been expelled from the State of Illinois, and a band of pioneers were being selected for the journey across the plains to the Rocky Mountains. The word and will of the Lord was given through President Brigham Young, commanding the people to organize themselves into companies, with captains of hundreds, and fifties, and tens, preparatory to their journey to the West. [section 136.] That was the word of the Lord to our parents and grand-parents. The Prophet Joseph Smith had predicted that the Latter-day Saints would be driven westward and become a mighty people in the midst of the Rocky Mountains, and President Brigham Young, as his successor and executor gave that word and will of the Lord at Winter Quarters, but is it the word and will of the Lord to you and to me? Are we to hitch up ox-teams in this day of railroads, and automobiles and aeroplanes, and go wandering off to California, or to Mexico, or to Canada, and justify ourselves by pointing to the word of the Lord given in January, 1847, upon the banks of the Missouri? Why no; the fallacy is apparent at a glance. (CR, October 1910, pp. 51-52.)

Marion G. Romney - The perfection upon which exaltation hangs, I repeat, is an individual matter. It is conditioned upon the observance of celestial laws as they apply to earth life. The Word of Wisdom is one of them, so also are chastity, tithing, observance of the Sabbath day, prayer, honesty, industry, love of God and fellow men, patience, kindness, charity, and all the rest of the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Each individual who observes one or more of these laws shall receive the blessings predicated thereon, and each Church member who will, with all the energy of his soul, diligently strive to live them all, shall receive the blessings predicated upon such striving. Eternal life, the greatest gift of God, is that blessing, and it will follow the living of the gospel as the night the day, regardless of statistics or averages, or of what others think or say or do, for the Lord Almighty himself has said that ". . . every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am." (D&C 93:1.)

The converse, that every member of the Church who refuses to do so will fall short of the glory of God, is just as true, for the Lord has also said that ". . . no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end." (3 Nephi 27:19.) (CR, October 1956, pp. 15-16.)

[Hemidakota]

While I am out on a limb here, I have a hard time believing that you have failed to keep any commandments since you've left the Church. Your premise is flawed.

If he received the Holy Ghost confirmation and then leave the church, then it is better for him to hang a millstone around his neck then to reject the gospel of Jesus the Christ. It always go back if the Holy Ghost had made it known what was given was truth.

[Dravin]

If he received the Holy Ghost confirmation and then leave the church, then it is better for him to hang a millstone around his neck then to reject the gospel of Jesus the Christ. It always go back if the Holy Ghost had made it known what was given was truth.

His argument was that he's been blessed, I was just pointing out that he's probably still keeping commandments and thus receiving the blessing from God that are predicated upon the commandments he is keeping.

Edit:

Erik, to answer you more than just the snippet I gave. I don't think things are mutually exclusive, God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust, judgement comes later, evil people can still prosper in this life and who knows just what blessings are from god and what are the natural consequences of the world we live in and the actions we take. That said if one wants the blessing promised for paying a full tithe one must pay a full tithe for example. And of course the above I'm fairly sure you are keeping some commandments so you aren't quite the control you might think you are.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Dravin

[Hemidakota]

Hmm...yes! I did catch it but the light received is only limited and will never actually see the source whom is holding it. The person will be content in not seeing who is holding the light in this life or the next. For some, they are happy to stand in the light but do not wish to be with the person who holds the source of the light. Look around...I found the same types in the church. Members who are content with having mediocre faith and average work but never reaching the source of the light in mortality for one reason or another.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Dravin]

That's great Hemi, but doesn't really have much to do with what I've said, at least from what I can see.

[Hemidakota]

Read between the lines....something the Savior did quite often in His mortal life with questions and answering.

[NeuroTypical]

“...it is by obedience to that law...”

...can God change his mind and grant blessings regardless of obedience to LDS law

You may notice that you have added a word to that scripture that doesn't belong. Nobody is talking about "LDS" law. I don't even know what that means, although I'd guess that you think it means manmade law.

God is the one setting the laws.

LM

[Hemidakota]

I think any laws at HIS level are eternal laws and our FATHER only enforces it for our salvation sake.

[Just_A_Guy]

Brigham Young taught that Mormonism, properly understood, encompasses all truth.

From that perspective, you haven't completely left Mormonism. You can't. All "truth", all "law" is part of it. Even if you follow a recipe to bake a cake; you are following a divine law--and you will reap the (tasty!) blessing thereof, regardless of your sentiments towards the Mormon church or Mormon scriptures.

[Elgama]

as per usual helps to read it in context

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all cblessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Take in context what you have said yes you have those blessings now you have left BUT your family is not for eternity you do not have the blessing that you would have had if you were LDS so you have the blessings according to the law you are living. HOWEVER you do not know what your blessings would have been if you had remained faithful. You cannot take your own example because only Heavenly Father knows the end from the beginning

For me trials are usually our greatest blessings you do not know what your blessings would have been had you endured them

-Charley

[ErikJohnson]

... better for him to hang a millstone around his neck...

Hey Hemidakota--

You must have missed the part where I mentioned I was part of the "Single Adult" program. Or did you mean hang a second millstone around my neck?

Dravin—Interesting responses. You seem to suggest it's possible to get credit for obedience when there's absolutely no intent to be obedient. (And to be completely clear—as a Trinity-believing Christian, I have no intent whatsoever to be obedient to a Jesus who is a "spirit brother, "organized intelligence," "a God," etc. I deny the very existence of the entity that LDS seek to follow and obey.)

Leaving my personal views aside—do you not think God (as LDS understand him) discerns and judges the intent of the heart? Doesn't the intent of the heart count for much more than any outward acts or appearance? And/or are you denying the very meaning of D&C 130:21 (at least as I was taught) that all blessings are predicated on acts of obedience?

Please clarify when you have a moment. Again, I appreciate the comments.

--Erik

[Elgama]

Dravin—Interesting responses. You seem to suggest it's possible to get credit for obedience when there's absolutely no intent to be obedient. (And to be completely clear—as a Trinity-believing Christian, I have no intent whatsoever to be obedient to a Jesus who is a "spirit brother, "organized intelligence," "a God," etc. I deny the very existence of the entity that LDS seek to follow and obey.)

Leaving my personal views aside—do you not think God (as LDS understand him) discerns and judges the intent of the heart? Doesn't the intent of the heart count for much more than any outward acts or appearance? And/or are you denying the very meaning of D&C 130:21 (at least as I was taught) that all blessings are predicated on acts of obedience?

For me the scripture teaches we get the blessings we get based on our level of obedience, as I stated in my other post unless you know the end from the beginning you cannot say what blessing would be if you obedient to God as he exists rather than the one you have chosen.. you only know the blessings you have from the life you chose.

You do not know what you would have become through eternity had you stayed faithful, as verse 19 states knowledge gained through obedience gives Latter Day Saints an advantage in the eternities

-Charley

[Dravin]

Dravin—Interesting responses. You seem to suggest it's possible to get credit for obedience when there's absolutely no intent to be obedient. (And to be completely clear—as a Trinity-believing Christian, I have no intent whatsoever to be obedient to a Jesus who is a "spirit brother, "organized intelligence," "a God," etc. I deny the very existence of the entity that LDS seek to follow and obey.)*

Do you love your neighbor? Do you love God? Are you saying that you do not try to follow Christ as you understand him? If you are trying to follow Christ as you understand him I daresay the intent to be obedient to his commandments is there. Just because you don't pay tithing or what have you doesn't mean you will be denied the blessings that come with service or what have you.

Leaving my personal views aside—do you not think God (as LDS understand him) discerns and judges the intent of the heart? Doesn't the intent of the heart count for much more than any outward acts or appearance?

Yes he does, see the above. Are you saying you have no intent to follow Christ as you understand him? Though I do believe that one will be blessed for adhering to celestial law even if it is in ignorance, I think those who obey the WoW will benefit from it, those who love their neighbors will benefit from that and those who who keep sundry commandments will not know the sorrow and heartache they would if they weren't keeping them.

And/or are you denying the very meaning of D&C 130:21 (at least as I was taught) thatall*blessings are predicated on acts of obedience?*

I don't feel that the intent of D&C 130:21 is to state that anything we might say is good in this life is because we ate our Wheaties and read our scriptures that morning (or the morning before that or what have you). But similar to what Justice is getting at. If you want the blessings of being a Full Tithe Payer, you need to pay your Tithing, you want the blessings from being active in the Church, you need to be active in the Church and so on.

Edit: I just want people to know that I did edit, and it's because I went a ramblin' all over the place and ended up not making much sense and possibly getting a bit to confrontational (which seems to happen the longer my posts are).

Edited June 28, 2009 by Dravin
I turned into a ramblin' man.

[Justice]

I think "obtain" here denotes something you seek. It does not preclude Father from granting blessings as He sees fit. Only that if there is something you want, then you can obtain it by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is granted through.