Polygamy is affecting my testimony

[breecatasnana]

Well, by then the other leaders were invested in the practice of polygamy, too.

BTW, I think blacks not having the priesthood was not God's idea, either.

Our church is so conservative we tend not to question what previous leaders have said. BY decided blacks wouldn't have the priesthood, and it was not seriously questioned by his successors until the 1960s. When Pres. Kimball so persistently asked the question of the Lord in the 1970s, because it bothered him (SWK), the Lord revealed to him to give blacks the priesthood (just as JS had done in his time).

The Lord doesn't appear to shove things down our throat very often. He seems, rather, to work with us at our own pace.

So this means we can pick and choose which doctrines we believe and which ones we don't, then everyone can create his own version of the gospel, based on his personal choices. Wouldn't this do away with any need for a prophet if we only follow the parts of his revelations we choose? Sounds kinda like the Protestants to me. They each interpret the Bible the way they want to creating all the different versions of the gospel out there.

Didn't Paul warn against this in the New Testament?

Penny

[breecatasnana]

I tend to agree with you about blacks and the Priesthood. But what about the revelation regarding plural marriage...made up? I am sure you would agree, that if we are listening to the Spirit we can discern whether something is of God or not...particularly when faced with a decision. JS and other Prophets were surely in tune with the Spirit and as Prophets probably received a greater out pouring of the Spirit. Seems to me the Lord would have withdrawn HIS Spirit had JS been "diddling" young girls and other men's wives. Seems as though the Lord would not have elected to have the church continue with that "stigma" attached to it....and to many it is a stigma and a reason why they can't accept the church.

What do you think of Abraham 1: 26-27? Or can we pick and choose which scriptures are inspired as well, since they are written by imperfect prophets??????

This picking and chooseing thing seems to be quite dangerous to me!!!!

Penny

[bytor2112]

What do you think of Abraham 1: 26-27? Or can we pick and choose which scriptures are inspired as well, since they are written by imperfect prophets??????

This picking and chooseing thing seems to be quite dangerous to me!!!!

Penny

Not sure I understand what your driving at......I believe the scriptures ARE inspired, including the verses you mention from the Book of Abraham. I am not entirely certain that the ban came by revelation, but rather the result of external pressures. I say this because as you are probably aware, Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel....a black man, to the Priesthood. Either way, the ban has been lifted and ALL worthy males regardless of race may enjoy the blessings of the Priesthood. I also believe that plural marriage WAS from God and I sustain all the Prophets of this dispensation....past and present.

In the words of the late Elder McConkie:

It is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young…or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more. It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. [9]

— Bruce R. McConkie in 1978, after the revelation granting blacks the priesthood

Edited July 31, 2009 by bytor2112

[ruthiechan]

Not necessarily stupid..but throughout this thread the Prophets have lost names. They have become just initials. Just doesn't seem very respectful to me. Just my opinion.

Seriously. At the very least type in their name completely at first and then in parenthesis put the initials and use the initials thereafter in a post. To do otherwise is lazy imo and makes reading rather confusing or more difficult, even for me, a member who can figure it out.

[bytor2112]

Seriously. At the very least type in their name completely at first and then in parenthesis put the initials and use the initials thereafter in a post. To do otherwise is lazy imo and makes reading rather confusing or more difficult, even for me, a member who can figure it out.

Why don't you just call me stupid too?????? Just kiddin'. I am the lazy offender that uses initials....I will endeavor to improve.

[Moksha]

I am the lazy offender that uses initials....I will endeavor to improve.

Church leaders take great length to include either a first or second initial. Better not leave that off anything official.

BTW, did JS or BY have middle initials?

:)

[Moksha]

Wow. Too bad Moksha isn't the senior apostle. He'd set things straight in short order!!!!!

Church callings beyond setting up and taking down chairs seem like an endless round of board meetings. I've had my fill of that. Besides, you could follow in the footsteps of Boyd K. Packer much better. :)

He has such a deep and profound understanding of Godly truths!!!

Thanks for the compliment. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, but I only speak my own truth.

He'd set things straight in short order!!!!!

Only if I can use hindsight to do it!

:)

Edited July 31, 2009 by Moksha

[breecatasnana]

Not sure I understand what your driving at......I believe the scriptures ARE inspired, including the verses you mention from the Book of Abraham. I am not entirely certain that the ban came by revelation, but rather the result of external pressures. I say this because as you are probably aware, Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel....a black man, to the Priesthood. Either way, the ban has been lifted and ALL worthy males regardless of race may enjoy the blessings of the Priesthood. I also believe that plural marriage WAS from God and I sustain all the Prophets of this dispensation....past and present.

In the words of the late Elder McConkie:

Why do you believe Abraham when he said those descended from Ham could not hold the priesthood, but when Joseph Smith or Brigham Young said it you claim they are giving in to "external pressures"? It sounds kinda like those Jews Jesus condemned for believing the dead prophets, but condemning the living ones.

The gospel and it's precepts were restored line upon line and precept upon precept. It is my understanding that when Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel, it had not yet been revealed to him that blacks could not hold the priesthood. Just like the first baptisms for the dead were performed outside a temple. The full use of temples was not restored all at once, but little by little. Even a prophet can only act on what has been revealed, and yes they are imperfect, but they do not go around lying about what is gospel doctrine and what is not. They do not lie about revelations from God. If they did God would remove them out of their place. God will not allow them to lie to us.

You claim you sustain all the prophets of this dispensation. Is accusing Joseph Smith of lying about doctrine, giving in to presures of men, and leading us astray sustaining him?

Penny

[bytor2112]

You claim you sustain all the prophets of this dispensation. Is accusing Joseph Smith of lying about doctrine, giving in to presures of men, and leading us astray sustaining him?

Well......first of all....WHERE did I ever accuse Joseph Smith of lying?? Perhaps you should reread my post, before you get all bent out of shape. I am as ardent a defender of our faith and Joseph Smith as you will find, but, I haven't read the revelation given to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young regarding a Priesthood ban. They may well have received one, but I haven't read it.....have YOU?? If so, please share it and clear up my and I dare say others uncertainty.

And just to be perfectly clear...less there be a sliver of misunderstanding......whether God spoke it from the heavens to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or not, I accept it because they held the keys of authority to do so......but that doesn't mean it was done by revelation.

From Elder Jeffrey R Holland:

I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger [apostles] to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.

Edited August 1, 2009 by bytor2112

[HEthePrimate]

In light of having recently been officially reprimanded for something I said, perhaps I should clarify something. Even though I did say something about JS in this thread that could be interpreted as "derogatory," I actually admire Joseph Smith. I pointed out something he did that I thought was a mistake and/or morally questionable. However, I am of the school of thought that we are all sinners, and just because JS messed up, it doesn't mean that I condemn him or even dislike him. In fact, I would love to meet the man! He sounds not only charismatic and highly intelligent, but like a downright fun person to hang out with. One of the things I admire most about him is his willingness to "spiritually explore." He thought uncommon thoughts, explored ideas from a very eclectic variety of sources, and was not afraid to look silly and make mistakes in so doing. Yes, it gave the antis plenty of fodder, but I'd much rather listen to one of his sermons than sit through a modern correlated priesthood meeting where nobody's allowed to have an original thought. (Oops! Is that going to bring another reprimand? )

I will reiterate--yes, I think polygamy was a mistake. And I will re-clarify--I think Joseph Smith was a good man, a prophet, and I just like him, even though he made mistakes. I hope he will extend me the same courtesy when we meet in the next life (Heaven knows I've made plenty of mistakes!).

I do not dwell upon your faults, and you shall not upon mine. Charity, which is love, covereth a multitude of sins, and I have often covered up all the faults among you; but the prettiest thing is to have no faults at all. We should cultivate a meek, quiet and peaceable spirit. Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true “Mormons.” -- Joseph Smith, Jr.

Peace,

HEP

[deseretgov]

So if polygamy was a mistake then it was against God's will(since He had not commanded it). So then God will allow His prophets to lead His people in opposition to God's will.

[HEthePrimate]

So if polygamy was a mistake then it was against God's will(since He had not commanded it). So then God will allow His prophets to lead His people in opposition to God's will.

We're not practicing polygamy any more, are we now? Mistake made. Course correction. Back on track.

[bytor2112]

We're not practicing polygamy any more, are we now? Mistake made. Course correction. Back on track.

So, why do you think it was a mistake? The church obviously doesn't teach that. In fact, as you know, we believe today that men can be sealed to more than one wife. Elder Nelson was recently sealed to a new wife. What leads you to believe that Joseph Smith lied and led the church astray?

[Justice]

It takes a lot of faith to accept something that goes against our beliefs and nature. We often condemn things we don't understand. But, the fact is, there is strong evidence that the Lord revealed this practice to those in the Old Testament times as well. Sometimes we should try to accept what we don't understand instead of accepting only what we understand. This is where the greatest measure of faith is exercised.

[HEthePrimate]

There is strong evidence the Lord does NOT like plural marriage:

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

(Jacob 2:23-33)

This is from the Book of Mormon, which most LDS believe to be more correct than the Bible, indeed the most correct book of scripture.

Whether or not the Lord told JS to practice polygamy, it would seem clear that it would be the exception to the rule (the rule being monogamy), and justifying polygamy from the OT makes for a very feeble argument (if you believe the BoM).

HEP

Edited August 1, 2009 by HEthePrimate

[HEthePrimate]

Sometimes we should try to accept what we don't understand instead of accepting only what we understand. This is where the greatest measure of faith is exercised.

Consider the possibility that it takes faith to take the Lord at his word, "Come, now, let us reason together," and believe that if we really strive to understand, he will teach us. Granted, we're only human and will not understand everything, but I believe the Lord wants us to understand and will help us. Methinks all too often we take the easy way out and rely too much on "faith" without putting much effort into study.

HEP

[breecatasnana]

Well......first of all....WHERE did I ever accuse Joseph Smith of lying?? Perhaps you should reread my post, before you get all bent out of shape. I am as ardent a defender of our faith and Joseph Smith as you will find, but, I haven't read the revelation given to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young regarding a Priesthood ban. They may well have received one, but I haven't read it.....have YOU?? If so, please share it and clear up my and I dare say others uncertainty.

And just to be perfectly clear...less there be a sliver of misunderstanding......whether God spoke it from the heavens to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or not, I accept it because they held the keys of authority to do so......but that doesn't mean it was done by revelation.

From Elder Jeffrey R Holland:

When you said Joseph Smith only "claimed" it to be from God when in reality he was just giving into peer preasure you accused him of lying. You also accused him of teaching false doctrine when you said the priesthood ban was not from God, but just Joseph Smith let popular opinion tell him what to teach. God would not let any prophet do that, so it just did not happen. Prophets are only allowed to teach the truth God tells them to teach as doctrine. If they try to teach false doctrine God will remove them out of their place. Saying you have to see the revelation written down before you will believe it is just a cop out. Wheather he wrote it down or not God told Joseph Smith this was the way it was to be, and it was not just something Joseph Smith made up to please people. I believe all revelations given to the prophet wheather it is written down or not.

Penny

[Justice]

What I meant can be explained by paraphrasing something Joseph Smith said.

At one time God has said, "Thou shalt not kill." At another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." Whatever God commands is right.

It is possible He can command 2 different groups of people to do different things based on their obedience, level of understanding, or simply the time they live in.

Yes, there is a contradiction. But, the contradiction comes from God. Apparently both were His will.

You need to move away from viewing it as a mistake.

[Moksha]

So, why do you think it was a mistake?

It did nearly destroyed the Church. It caused polygamist leaders to be jailed and the entire assets of the Church nearly seized. The repercussions of past polygamy still haunt the Church today.

[bytor2112]

When you said Joseph Smith only "claimed" it to be from God when in reality he was just giving into peer preasure you accused him of lying. You also accused him of teaching false doctrine when you said the priesthood ban was not from God, but just Joseph Smith let popular opinion tell him what to teach. God would not let any prophet do that, so it just did not happen. Prophets are only allowed to teach the truth God tells them to teach as doctrine. If they try to teach false doctrine God will remove them out of their place. Saying you have to see the revelation written down before you will believe it is just a cop out. Wheather he wrote it down or not God told Joseph Smith this was the way it was to be, and it was not just something Joseph Smith made up to please people. I believe all revelations given to the prophet wheather it is written down or not.

Penny

We don't know if the ban began with Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, but we do know that their is not a written revelation. Also, I am fairly certain that I said "external pressures" and not peer pressure.

If you think the ban began because either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young received revelation to do so....fine. I think the times that they lived in shaped their opinions and they developed church policies that seem to be the best way to proceed given the circumstances they were in. Have you ever read Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman? If not, I highly recommend it.....it sheds a lot of light on the early days of the church and how things came to be.

I believe all revelations given to the prophet wheather it is written down or not.

If the revelation aren't written down.....how do you know about them??????

This is a part of a comment posted on another thread by Rameumpton:

Racism as we know it today was very common throughout America in 1847. The concerns of marriages between blacks and whites was a big concern at the time, especially with the McCrary issue.

In deciding what to do, I think Brigham Young went back to his Protestant roots, which believed in the curse of Cain and Cainan (Ham's son) being a curse on black people, and he applied it to the priesthood. Why? Because writings in the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham and Book of Moses could ostensibly be read in such a way as to corroborate such a view. They did not know what textual or historical criticism was back then, and so didn't parse the words like scholars today can do into their proper meaning.

There is no known revelation causing the ban to occur. Brigham Young may have caused it to occur so as to maintain order within the Church (preventing blacks from marrying whites). But it could also be an issue of 19th century racism.

As it is, those who already held the priesthood, did not lose their priesthood. Elijah Abel was ordained by Joseph Smith as a 70, and went on several missions, including after the Saints went west. However, once the Endowment House and temples were built, he was not allowed inside. So, even he was restricted from further blessings at the time.

Since Brigham Young was such a powerful character and prophet, no one bothered to question the priesthood ban, but only studied ways to understand and support it. This is why there were so many different ideas tossed out, such as blacks being fence sitters in the premortal existence, later repudiated by the Church.

Two prophets did have researchers see if the ban began via revelation, and neither time was it confirmed. Pres McKay determined that it wasn't established by revelation, but when he asked, the Lord told him to keep it in place for a while longer.

While it is tragic what happened in conjunction with the ban, and how it encouraged its own form of racism in members, I always remember that God works with people in spite of their weaknesses, not because of them. Given the fact that Brigham Young was always fighting an uphill battle to succeed in the west, I'm surprised there were so few radical events and teachings come from him.

Edited August 1, 2009 by bytor2112

[JohnnyRudick]

We don't know if the ban began with Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, but we do know that their is not a written revelation. Also, I am fairly certain that I said "external pressures" and not peer pressure.

If you think the ban began because either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young received revelation to do so....fine. . . .

If the revelation aren't written down.....how do you know about them??????

Many of us, myself included, understood that there was no direct revelation banning the priesthood from blacks.

We just assumed that the Church was following the dictates of Scripture like;

Abraham 1:25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by

Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it

was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was

patriarchal.

Abraham 1:26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his

kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days,

seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the

fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first

patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah,

his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and

with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the

Priesthood.

Abraham 1:27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could

not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs

would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father

was led away by their idolatry; . . .

Bro. Rudick

[HEthePrimate]

At one time God has said, "Thou shalt not kill." At another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." Whatever God commands is right.

I don't believe God commanded genocide.

[HEthePrimate]

It did nearly destroyed the Church. It caused polygamist leaders to be jailed and the entire assets of the Church nearly seized. The repercussions of past polygamy still haunt the Church today.

Yes, indeed. In fact, how the Church is reacting to the prospect of gay marriage may be seen as one of those repercussions.

HEP

[breecatasnana]

What I meant can be explained by paraphrasing something Joseph Smith said.

At one time God has said, "Thou shalt not kill." At another time He said "Thou shalt utterly destroy." Whatever God commands is right.

It is possible He can command 2 different groups of people to do different things based on their obedience, level of understanding, or simply the time they live in.

Yes, there is a contradiction. But, the contradiction comes from God. Apparently both were His will.

You need to move away from viewing it as a mistake.

What you say is quite true. I understand this concept completely as I believe that God put the ban on Blacks holding the priesthood through Joseph Smith and then removed it later through a different prophet.

But saying God did not tell Joseph Smith to put the ban on blacks holding the priesthood, but rather Joseph did it on his own because of peer preasure, and that he then lied to the church saying God commanded it when He did not, is not the same thing at all.

My question to you then is: Did God put the ban on Blacks holding the priesthood or did Joseph Smith do it claiming God did?

Penny

[its_Chet]

Now I'm looking for the laugh button. Not laughing at anyone, mind you.

I haven't got an opinion either way.