Obama's Healthcare?? Plan

[Charlyc]

That's a rather flagrant misrepresentation.

Another misrepresentation.

Glad you edited out 'lie' and softened things down a bit.

I certainly didn't know that it was a lie nor is it a misrepresentation, but GOP voters might be a bit touchy these days, right?

[Just_A_Guy]

Glad you edited out 'lie' and softened things down a bit.

No problem.

I certainly didn't know that it was a lie nor is it a misrepresentation, but GOP voters might be a bit touchy these days, right?

I wouldn't know, as I'm not a GOP voter and have not been for eleven years. But if you've fallen for the idea that Republicans (or conservatives/libertarians) want anyone to go starving or to die from lack of medical treatment, I can only say that I'm genuinely sorry for you.

[bytor2112]

1- DEMS: part of everyones taxes pays for the poor' basic medical costs and some of the middle class medical cost.

2- GOP: doesn't want to see their taxes pay for their fellow citizens medical cost period. Plus they want insurance companies to make as much money as possible in a free open market. Plus they want a full 'users pay' system where the wealthy pay for the best coverage and the poor who can't afford insurance, or someone denied coverage, go and pray in church for divine intervention when they get sick.

between the two, like mixing oil/water, wont happen so the majority wins out: so part of your taxes, if not all, will pay other peoples medical costs.

I hope that explains it

It explains it very well....unless your interested in truth.

[Just_A_Guy]

CNN: Senator Snowe "deeply disappointed" by public option's rebirth. Recall that a couple of weeks ago, Snowe was the key player in getting the Senate version of ObamaCare out of committee.

This should be a "teachable moment" for the so-called "moderate" Republicans. Progressives do not "compromise" over the long term. They just bide their time while getting conservatives to sell out, one principle at a time.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Palerider]

Thats why I always vote Republican...I want to see people starve and I always lie......:)

[Elphaba]

There were, but they were virtually unnoticed until Pelosi mentioned the issue. And the specific case Speaker Pelosi was referring to seems to have been a plant.

I read wizbang every now and then, and I like Kevin’s posts because they give me perspective. I rarely agree with him, and admit he sometimes grates on me. But I have to say, his conspiracy theory in this one put me off.

Kevin claims there were no photos or references on the internet, of people carrying signs with swastikas on them at town hall meetings prior to Pelosi‘s comments, but that this one magically showed up immediately after them:

He may be right, but that doesn’t mean the woman in this particular photo is a plant. It only means the photo wasn’t online prior to Pelosi’s comments, and that it was published online after them, in Huffington Post's article Anti-Obama Protester Compares President To Nazi In Swastika Sign,

The author says a Democrat gave him the picture. I think this is the most damning statement in the whole issue because it is so cryptic. If it was Pelosi who gave him the picture, then I don't see any reason not to disclose that. I can see how this would make Kevin suspicious, but ultimately, I think it's irrelevant.

Frankly, it doesn’t matter to me whether the picture magically appeared or not--what matters to me is if it is accurate. According to Bob Moore of the Ft. Collins Coloradoan, it is. In the following he refers to the woman pictured above.

coloradoan.com | Fort Collins PluckPersona | The Coloradoan,:

I have no way of knowing if this is what Pelosi was referring to, but the image was snapped July 29 in Old Town Fort Collins. The woman holding the sign was part of a counter-protest organized by the Tea Party of Northern Colorado, responding to a rally by health-care reform supporters.

I saw the sign during the protest. It was definitely an outlier in the counter-protect, in which most signs were more straightforward objections to health-care reform.

. . . .

Ray Harvey of Tea Party of Northern Colorado, one of the organizers of the counter-protest, mentioned to me that a couple of motorists had confronted the woman with the swastika sign because they didn't notice the circle and slash. They thought she was promoting the Nazis. She clearly was struggling to get her message out.

Additionally, Kevin selectively quotes James Taranto at the Wall Street Journal, who has a verified account of a person at a town hall meeting who saw people carrying signs, with swastikas on them, prior to Pelosi’s comments.

From Taranto’s Desperately Seeking Swastikas:

There were in fact swastikas displayed on several of the signs outside. Signs were not permitted inside the hall.

Why Kevin chose to ignore this part of Taranto’s story is a mystery to me, as he must think it’s a reliable source, else I can’t imagine he would have quoted Taranto at all.

Actually, it turns our there is more than just the one photo that “magically” appeared, as demonstrated in the following Youtube by CNN‘s Rick Sanchez.

So, are all of these people plants? I can’t imagine that could be true.

I do think Kevin makes an important distinction, and that is that the picture of the woman with the brown shirt was not a town-hall meeting. However, it makes sense to me Pelosi could get this kind of event confused with an actual town-hall meeting.

Here’s something I can‘t believe--all of the people who think Pelosi was accusing protestors of being Nazis.

This is what Pelosi actually said:

I think they're AstroTurf. You be the judge. They're carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.

The only way her comment makes any sense is in light of the hundreds of “Obama is a Nazi”-type signs from last summer’s tea party protests. None of these signs could have been construed to mean the holder was actually a Nazi, and that is not what Pelosi meant.

Her point was these people are still carrying around the same kind of "Obama is a Nazi" signs with swastikas on them they did last summer at the tea party protests.

That’s so obvious I don’t understand how anyone could think otherwise.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

CNN: Senator Snowe "deeply disappointed" by public option's rebirth. Recall that a couple of weeks ago, Snowe was the key player in getting the Senate version of ObamaCare out of committee.

This should be a "teachable moment" for the so-called "moderate" Republicans. Progressives do not "compromise" over the long term. They just bide their time while getting conservatives to sell out, one principle at a time.

You're so dramatic JAG!

As I understand it, Senator Snowe's trigger never had the support the public option/state opt out has because there is no guarantee the trigger would actually get pulled.

The state opt-out, on the other hand, is a compromise that could well survive a fillibuster.

Unfortunatley, I live in a state that would probably opt out, and I have a problem with that. I don't know--what do you think? Would Utah opt out?

I must say I'm shocked to see Reid has some cojones. Whether you agree with him or not, would you have ever expected this from him?

Elphaba

[Charlyc]

No problem.

I can only say that I'm genuinely sorry for you.

Cheers, and thank-you for your concern

[Charlyc]

It explains it very well....unless your interested in truth.

Well...........maybe it actually takes an outsider to see this without bias and hence find the truth. I really have no special interest in either party but after hanging around here for a few months I can't say the same of my brethren/sisters living in America. I hope that changes some day.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Charlyc

[Charlyc]

Thats why I always vote Republican...I want to see people starve and I always lie......:)

Yeap! by-products of Reaganomics

[Elphaba]

Thats why I always vote Republican...I want to see people starve and I always lie......:)

Oh c'mon. You know it's only liberals you want to see starve.

Elphaba

[Just_A_Guy]

Unfortunatley, I live in a state that would probably opt out, and I have a problem with that. I don't know--what do you think? Would Utah opt out?

I suppose it will depend on how the bill affects Medicaid and other existing programs. I think Utah would prefer to opt out; but the state legislature can be surprisingly pragmatic. If existing federally-funded programs are gutted to the point that the state has nowhere to turn but to full-blown Obamacare, I doubt Utah will stand back on principle.

I must say I'm shocked to see Reid has some cojones. Whether you agree with him or not, would you have ever expected this from him?

Frankly: Yes. But that was more my conservative paranoia (and my belief that Pelosi, not Reid, is calling the shots in Congress) than any personal judgment on Reid. :)

[Just_A_Guy]

Re Pelosi, Nazis, and liberal plants, I should have been more careful with the original link I provided. The one I was thinking of was this (which featured in Sanchez's report--the same report where he sanctimoniously apologized to Speaker Pelosi for taking so long to run the story, but pointed out that as professional journalists they have standards on sources).

That said, I appreciate your rebuttal of the WizBang post. I would even go you one further and suggest that for the purposes of this discussion, the distinction between "town hall" and "public demonstrations that are not technically a town hall" seems contrived at best.

Regarding the Speaker's intent, though, I don't think your interpretation is "obvious" at all. Context is everything. She's answering the question:

Do you think there's a legitimate grassroots opposition going on here?

Thence the reply:

I think they're AstroTurf. You be the judge. They're carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on health care.

The question wasn't about the arguments the tea partiers were making; it was about the people themselves. If Speaker Pelosi had wanted to say "they're painting the President as a Nazi, and that's just ridiculous", she could have easily done so. But she didn't. She said "carrying swastikas". And Taranto's point is painfully valid: everyone knows who carries swastikas.

A day or two later, CNN's Sanchez runs a fake photo while sanctimoniously condemning the use of the swastika even as political satire (been around the last 8 years much, Ricky?). And a week later? This.

Fishy, no?

[Elphaba]

I apologize in advance that this is so long. I don’t know how to address your comments without providing transcripts of what was said regarding the Dingell town hall meeting. The same with Steven Wakowski’s (sp?) video.

Re Pelosi, Nazis, and liberal plants, I should have been more careful with the original link I provided. The one I was thinking of was this . . . .

For the sake of space I’m only commenting on the two videos posted in this link. First is the video featuring Steve Wakowski. The beginning of the video is clips of various pundits and news anchors talking about the Obama/Hitler mustache poster. Then Wakoiski continues:

Now my reaction was probably the same as yours--those crazed white-ring extremists angry mobsters are putting Hitler mustaches on President Obama.

But then I remembered something. I've seen this poster somewhere else before. That’s right, it was a rally for single payer healthcare in the middle of Washington DC thrown by one of the most influential healthcare reform groups in the country.

[video showing the Obama/Hitler sign displayed by Larouche supporters at what I assume is a tea party protest last summer. ]

Yes a group called Larouche Pak was sporting several signs which compared president Obama to the Nazis. Included among these signs was the now-famous poster of Obama with a Hitler mustache, which many in these programs use to demonstrate the insanity of Obamacare . . . “

Larouche supporter:

Yes, Larouche has advocated a single-payer system.

Now, Larouche is for single-payer program. Not exactly a right-wing position.

Now I know what you must be thinking. Clearly the Larouche Pak is a group of white-wing nut jobs well funded by the insurance companies who have come to sabotage Obama’s healthcare plan. Well, it seems that that is not exactly true.

Now that’s okay, reporting’s hard. It’s not like Larouche Pak goes around posting all these Obama Nazi posters on their website.

What? Oh, they do. Oh. Yes, it seems that once you land at LaRouche’s Pak’s website, you're urged to stop Obama’s Nazi healthcare plan. And if you click through the health section, you’re greeted with, well, this picture:

[Video of Obama/Hitler mustache].

Oops, I mean this one.

[Video of anti-Obama poster.]

Wait, those are exactly the same. [i’m confused by this as they are not the same. This poster only has words on it.]

It seems as if MSNBC has found a wholly separate situation where crazed right-wingers have used similar Obama Hitler posters.

Woman reporter:

Limbaugh is firing back against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi who dismissed some of these town hall protesters by saying they have been showing up at these meetings with swastikas and other Nazi symbols. Take a look at these pictures:

[Picture of Obama/Nazi mustahe in Chicago.]

[Picture of Obama/Nazi at two protests stop Obama’s Nazi healthcare cuts.]

Well that all seems very convincing, except when you look a bit closer at the sign right next to that protestor. Yes, that says Larouche. Of course there is the other sign [Obama/Hitler mustache], but it seems I can’t find anything using that type of rhetoric. Except, of course, the Larouche Pak.

Huh. It seems we’ve got the media either being too lazy, too incompetent, or too wrapped up in their own narrative to do the job.

This video is extremely misleading. First, the Larouche group is a radical white-ring organization. This is obvious if you visit its website.

Second, the Larouche supporter’s comments, where she says Larouche is in favor of a single-payer plan, betrays her as either uninformed, or she misspoke. Remember, she had placed at least three posters of Obama/Hitler mustache at her site. It makes no sense that she would contradict Larouche’s actual position, which adamantly opposes healthcare reform, while surrounded by these pictures.

Third, a poster on the site FreeRepublic, which theblogprof linked, writes the following:

The guy who was at Dingell’s Romulus townhall meeting was a Lyndon LaRoushe supporter. There were several LaRouse supporters there handing out literature that equated Obama to Hitler. They always do that stuff, but those guys really are the fringe. The stuff is clearly labeled Lyndon LaRoushe.

I actually think that is plausible, given the Obama/Hitler mustache sign seems to have come from the Larouche group.

Fourth, what does it matter if the Obama/Hitler mustache sign came from the Larouche Group? People opposed to Obamacare agree with that sentiment. For example, here are a number of signs of Obama and swastikas, which Wakowski has apparently never seen:

Next is the clip of the Neil Cavuto show, with a couple's description of what transpired at Dingell's town hall meeting:

Women at Dingell town hall meeting: Well, there were a lot of…first of all this event was very very staged. As we were standing in line and there were signs of people supporting the bill, and supporting Congressman Dingell, and then those people, kind of exited the line, and there was a big window next to us and we saw them being ushered out and going through a back door into the meeting room and ultimately those people filled up the front four rows of the meeting room.

And it was a festering frustration kind of thing because any time there was support for the bill, people in the front four rows were holding up signs and cheering and everything, and the people who were in the remaining part of the meeting area felt like there is no discussion. And when Nancy Pelosi was talking about how people would be shouting and not having a discussion, there was no opportunity for discussion.

Cavuto: So you’re saying we’re so used to hearing the criticism that these things are staged manufactured AstroTurf events if you will, that you’re saying yeah they’re staged all right but on the other side that you felt this was staged to make it look like a Democrat friendly or at least healthcare reform friendly crowd, right?

Man: Clearly in this case clearly that was the case. The only people allowed in the room was signs of the supporters that were up front. There was exactly a gentlemen there carrying a sign around outside with Obama as a picture of Hitler, and it turned out later after the meeting he was outside handing out Dingell information on the healthcare program so it appears he was part of the Dingell operation to begin with.

Cavuto: To villainies the president, right?

Man: Yup.

This couple is wrong about a number of things. Below is a photo by “Electablog” from the DailyKOS, clearly showing he sat amongst the opponents at the meeting.

Electablog continues:

It became instantly clear that there were going to be some angry altercations during the meeting. As I sat in my chair waiting for the show to begin a middle-aged woman behind me rattled off a non-stop stream of Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck talking points about healthcarerationingeuthanizingtheelderlyfreeabortionssocialisttakeoverlyingcommunistnazi…

. . ..

I looked around and everywhere tea baggers were in the faces of healthcare reformers, faces red, veins bulging in their necks, literally screaming at people mere inches away as if the loudest person wins.

. . . .

He [Dingell] introduced [a] disabled woman named Marcia Boehm, a university employee and small business owner. Marcia is a little person and stands about 3½ feet tall.

As she spoke (or tried to), she was engulfed in more nasty commentary from the tea baggers in the audience.

SHE'S A PLANT!!!" and "GO HOME, LADY!

She told her story of losing her health care coverage and, due to her pre-existing condition, her inability to obtain further coverage. She asked the audience to think about how we decide "who deserves health care and who doesn't.

Electablog goes on to tell how Dingell tried to take questions, but he was interrupted by a man who pushed his wheelchair bound disabled son to the podium:

He proceeded to scream (literally scream) at Rep. Dingell, telling him that, under this new legislation, his son with cerebral palsy would be euthanized.

. . . .

Although Rep. Dingell assured him that this was certainly not the case, the man became more and more incensed, egged on by the crowd behind him. Dingell staffers were finally forced to move forward to ensure the man did not threaten Rep. Dingell. Eventually, the situation had escalated such that the Romulus police intervened and escorted him out of the room.

Why in the world didn't the couple Cavuto interviewed mention any of this? It looks to me like they purposely omitted it. If I were paranoid I could say this is a typical tactic of right-wing protestors of healthcare reform. I don't happen to think that, but given their wont to say the same of liberals, I admit I wonder.

Regarding the Speaker's intent, though, I don't think your interpretation is "obvious" at all. Context is everything. She's answering the question:

The question wasn't about the arguments the tea partiers were making; it was about the people themselves. If Speaker Pelosi had wanted to say "they're painting the President as a Nazi, and that's just ridiculous", she could have easily done so. But she didn't. She said "carrying swastikas".

And Taranto's point is painfully valid: everyone knows who carries swastikas.

Given that logic the tens of people, perhaps hundred (that‘s only a guesstimate) who carried signs with swastikas on them to the tea party protests, are Nazis. I refer you to the pictures of people holding swastikas I posted above.

Pelosi isn‘t calling anyone a Nazi. If you look at the situation, Pelosi was put on the spot and made an off-the-cuff comment, albeit an unfortunate one, because conservatives are making it mean something she didn't intend. However, I think her commment is understandable when you combine the fact that she was caught off-guard with the numerous tea party protestors' signs with swastikas printed on them.

I should say I am no fan of Pelosi. I am extremely critical of her, as I think she’s basically done nothing to further the platform she ran on in 2006. But this time I think she is being unjustly accused.

Fishy, no?

I don't think so. Honestly? I think it's partisan paranoia.

Is it possible one of these was a plant? Sure. But all of them? I don't think so. Why would those who used swastikas to demonize Obama all of a suddenly stop doing so?

Elphaba

Edited October 28, 2009 by Elphaba

[rameumptom]

Oh c'mon. You know it's only liberals you want to see starve.

Elphaba

Elphaba, you should be ashamed of yourself. That's not true at all.

Everyone knows that conservatives want liberals to "die quickly." Starvation takes way too long.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think my argument would boil down to two main points.

First, the man in the Electablog photo you posted is not the same man as the one in this photo. So the allegation made in the Cavuto interview so far stands unrefuted: the guy in the photo was handing out pro-Dingell material during the meeting itself. Can he be linked with LaRouche, other than the claim (not verfiable from the photos I've seen) that the poster had LaRouche's name on it?

I'll concede that a number of town halls--possibly including Rep. Dingell's--wound up as train wrecks. But I don't see how that affects whether or not one of Dingell's guys was walking around carrying an Obama-as-Hitler sign.

Given that logic the tens of people, perhaps hundred (that‘s only a guesstimate) who carried signs with swastikas on them to the tea party protests, are Nazis. I refer you to the pictures of people holding swastikas I posted above.

Indeed. When were those photos taken, though--before, or after, Speaker Pelosi's comments? Pardon the melodrama, but it seems to me that the question here is "what did Speaker Pelosi know, and when did she know it?"

Pelosi isn‘t calling anyone a Nazi. If you look at the situation, Pelosi was put on the spot and made an off-the-cuff comment, albeit an unfortunate one, because conservatives are making it mean something she didn't intend. However, I think her commment is understandable when you combine the fact that she was caught off-guard with the numerous tea party protestors' signs with swastikas printed on them.

Frankly, I think the comment played well with her core constituency. As she knew it would. The woman hasn't exactly been living in a void for the past eight years; she knows how and to whom the "Nazi" label has been applied during the Bush administration.

I should say I am no fan of Pelosi. I am extremely critical of her, as I think she’s basically done nothing to further the platform she ran on in 2006. But this time I think she is being unjustly accused.

I appreciate your candor.

Is it possible one of these was a plant? Sure. But all of them? I don't think so. Why would those who used swastikas to demonize Obama all of a suddenly stop doing so?

Are they all plants? I would concede that no, they are not. We've got our share of morons. But "suddenly stop"? The conservative argument is that for the most part, the signs started (or at least became far more ubiquitous, and more aggressively covered by the media) in the wake of Speaker Pelosi's comments. As far as I can tell, the tea parties had been going on for well over a month before this swastika kerfluffle hit the presses.

[unixknight]

Where was all this "ZOMG people are saying the Prezident is a Nazi!!!!!" outrage when protesters were putting swastikas on pictures of Bush?

[bytor2112]

Where was all this "ZOMG people are saying the Prezident is a Nazi!!!!!" outrage when protesters were putting swastikas on pictures of Bush?

They were carrying the signs......

[Elphaba]

First, the man in the Electablog photo you posted is not the same man as the one in this photo.

Yes he is.

Perhaps you meant to post a different photo? The man holding the sign in every photo at the Dingell town hall meeting is the same as the one you just posted. If you meant to post a different picture, and it proves me wrong, I really want to know about it because I want the truth.

So the allegation made in the Cavuto interview so far stands unrefuted: the guy in the photo was handing out pro-Dingell material during the meeting itself.

I admit this is probably true, as I’ve seen three people mention it on their blogs. I meant to include this in my last post. However, none of these people were actually there. They are only repeating what the couple said, which was a complete misrepresentation of the meeting.

If we accept their version of what happened, only the proponents of healthcare reform got to speak, and the people behind them did not. This is not true: for example, the couple fails to mention the man who wheeled his wheelchair-bound son to the podium. Every time Dingell tried to speak, the man shouted him down, and was so aggressive the police escorted him out of the building.

Why didn’t the couple mention that?

So Cavuto’s interview does not persuade me at all; in fact, I do not trust the couple given they were completely disingenuous, and seriously misrepresented what actually happened.

Fishy? J

Can he be linked with LaRouche, other than the claim (not verfiable from the photos I've seen) that the poster had LaRouche's name on it?

First, you might want to ask Wakowski that. The point of his whole video is that all of the Obama/Hitler mustache signs are from the LaRouche group, including the one the young man took to the Dingell meeting.

Additionally, it is possible the man is not a LaRouche follower despite what Wakowski says. In fact, his poster is not the same as LaRouche’s in that the words at the bottom are different. The one at the Dingell meeting had the words” I’ve Changed,” below the picture. The posters at the LaRouche’s tea party site had a lot of copy below the photo. It’s impossible to read it, but the point is, the two posters are different.

Also, I posted one picture above where a woman holding that sign is also holding a LaRouche sign. So, it’s possible the young man just liked the picture and copied it, and changed the words immediately below the picture to ‘I’ve Changed? Because I don’t believe this man was a plant, I think this is highly likely.

　

I'll concede that a number of town halls--possibly including Rep. Dingell's--wound up as train wrecks. But I don't see how that affects whether or not one of Dingell's guys was walking around carrying an Obama-as-Hitler sign.

It doesn’t.

Indeed. When were those photos taken, though--before, or after, Speaker Pelosi's comments?

According to the news shows I’ve seen, they were before.

Pardon the melodrama, but it seems to me that the question here is "what did Speaker Pelosi know, and when did she know it?"

Unless Pelosi never watched the news, never read the papers, or never used the internet, she had to have seen the swastikas at the tea party protests. I even followed the protests and saw numerous signs equating Obama and Hitler via a swastika. Certainly she saw them as well.

Frankly, I think the comment played well with her core constituency. As she knew it would.

Do you have a link to anyone who has said that? I haven’t seen it, but I admit I could have missed it.

The woman hasn't exactly been living in a void for the past eight years; she knows how and to whom the "Nazi" label has been applied during the Bush administration.

Okay, I see your point now given the Bush/Nazi signs.

However, the tea party protests, including the huge one at the Washington D.C. mall, had many posters with Obama=Nazi/swastika signs, and these are far more recent than the Bush/Nazi signs.

There is no doubt Pelosi was aware of this at the impromptu interview. So when she said, without preparation, that people were carrying signs with swastikas to the town hall meetings, I believe she assumed they were doing the same at the town hall meetings.

Are they all plants? I would concede that no, they are not. We've got our share of morons. But "suddenly stop"? The conservative argument is that for the most part, the signs started (or at least became far more ubiquitous, and more aggressively covered by the media) in the wake of Speaker Pelosi's comments. As far as I can tell, the tea parties had been going on for well over a month before this swastika kerfluffle hit the presses.

That is my point. She obviously would have seen these signs, including the ones that equate Obama as a Nazi. Thus, I think this is what she was referring to when she said what she did.

I know I have been well aware of the Nazi signs at the tea parties, and if I had said what Pelosi did, I would not have meant anyone was a Nazi. It’s just too far fetched to me.

So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m sure it’s boring to read the same argument over and over in my posts. J

Regarding the photo you mentioned in your first paragraph, if you meant a different one would you please post it? If it is different from the one in my post, I’d like to know as I really want to know if I’m wrong.

Elphaba

　

Edited October 29, 2009 by Elphaba
fixed formatting--no word changes. It's the same as before I fixed it.

[Elphaba]

First, the man in the Electablog photo you posted is not the same man as the one in this photo.

Yes he is. He is black and is wearing a striped shirt. Additionally, the woman with him is the same in both photos.

Perhaps you meant to post a different photo? If so, and it proves me wrong, please, post it because I really want to know the truth.

So the allegation made in the Cavuto interview so far stands unrefuted: the guy in the photo was handing out pro-Dingell material during the meeting itself.

I admit this is probably true, as I’ve seen three people mention it on their blogs. I meant to include this in my last post.

However, none of these people were actually there. They are only repeating what the couple said, which was a complete misrepresentation of the meeting.

If we accept their version of what happened, only the proponents of healthcare reform got to speak, and the people behind them did not. This is not true: for example, they fail to mention the man who wheeled his wheelchair-bound son to the podium. Every time Dingell tried to speak, the man shouted him down, and was so aggressive the police escorted him out of the building.

Why didn’t the couple mention that?

So Cavuto’s interview does not persuade me at all; in fact, I do not trust the couple given they were completely disingenuous, and severely misrepresented what actually happened.

Fishy? :)

Can he be linked with LaRouche, other than the claim (not verfiable from the photos I've seen) that the poster had LaRouche's name on it?

First, you might want to ask Wakowski since he says they the guy is a LaRouche follower.

It is possible the man is not a LaRouche follower despite what Wakowski says. In fact, his poster is not the same as LaRouche’s in that the words at the bottom are different. The one at the Dingell meeting had the words” I’ve Changed,” below the picture. The posters at the LaRouche’s tea party site had a lot of copy below the photo. It’s impossible to read it, but the point is, the two posters are different.

Also, I posted one picture in my previous post where a woman holding that sign is also holding a LaRouche sign. But it is possible the young man at the Dingell meeting was not a follower of LaRouche. He could have copied the picture and changed the words immediately below the picture to "I’ve Changed?

But it is also possible he is a follower of LaRouche. When I said he could have copied the picture, if the LaRouche group is the only faction who has the poster, it would have been difficult to do so. I really don't know where the man got the picture to make a poster out of it.

But my question is, what does it matter? The sign is very effective, and because I don't believe he was a plant, it accurately reflects his position.

　

But I don't see how that affects whether or not one of Dingell's guys was walking around carrying an Obama-as-Hitler sign.

That's true.

Indeed. When were those photos taken, though--before, or after, Speaker Pelosi's comments?

According to the news shows I’ve seen, they were before.

Pardon the melodrama, but it seems to me that the question here is "what did Speaker Pelosi know, and when did she know it?"

Unless Pelosi never watched the news, never read the papers, or never used the internet, she had to have seen the swastikas at the tea party protests.

I even followed the protests and saw numerous signs equating Obama and Hitler via a swastika. Certainly she saw them as well.

Frankly, I think the comment played well with her core constituency.

As she knew it would.

Do you have a link to anyone who has said that? I haven’t seen it, but I admit I could have missed it.

The woman hasn't exactly been living in a void for the past eight years; she knows how and to whom the "Nazi" label has been applied during the Bush administration.

Okay, I see your point now given the Bush/Nazi signs.

However, the tea party protests, including the huge one at the Washington D.C. mall, had many posters with Obama=Nazi/swastika signs, and these are far more recent than the Bush/Nazi signs.

There is no doubt Pelosi was aware of this at the impromptu interview. So when she said, without preparation, that people were carrying signs with swastikas to the town hall meetings, I believe she assumed this was true because of the swastika signs at the protests.

Are they all plants? I would concede that no, they are not. We've got our share of morons. But "suddenly stop"? The conservative argument is that for the most part, the signs started (or at least became far more ubiquitous, and more aggressively covered by the media) in the wake of Speaker Pelosi's comments.

This appears to be Fox News' position. I believe CNN and MSNBC report the signs existed before Pelosi's comments.

Obviously each station is portraying the situation based on its bias, including Fox. (I say that because so many people say it really is "fair and balanced." I find, as is true for the other stations, that it lacks perspective; thus, it is far from "fair and balanced." The same could be said of the other stations as well.

Also, as far as I can tell, the tea parties had been going on for well over a month before this swastika kerfluffle hit the presses.

That is my point. She obviously would have seen these signs, including the ones that equate Obama to a Nazi. Thus, I think this is what she was referring to when she said what she did in the moment.

So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m sure it’s boring to read my same argument over and over in my posts.

Regarding the photo you mentioned in your first paragraph, if you meant a different one would you please post it? If it is different from the one in my post, I’d like to know as I really want to know if I’m wrong.

Elphaba

Edited October 28, 2009 by Elphaba

[Just_A_Guy]

Yes he is. He is black and is wearing a striped shirt. Additionally, the woman with him is the same in both photos.

Perhaps you meant to post a different photo? If so, and it proves me wrong, please, post it because I really want to know the truth.

Was your original point that the guy who is in this photo (outside the town hall) is the same as the guy in this photo? That's what I'm responding to--and I don't see it. Mr. Stripey-shirt is not sitting with Obamacare opponents in the town hall; which is what I understood you to be arguing.

If we accept their version of what happened, only the proponents of healthcare reform got to speak, and the people behind them did not. This is not true: for example, they fail to mention the man who wheeled his wheelchair-bound son to the podium. Every time Dingell tried to speak, the man shouted him down, and was so aggressive the police escorted him out of the building.

Do you have a link to the full Cavuto interview? All I hear them saying in this particular excerpt is that Obamacare supporters were allowed to fill up the first four rows.

First, you might want to ask Wakowski since he says they the guy is a LaRouche follower.

I'm sure we'd both rather hear from a primary source.

But my question is, what does it matter? The sign is very effective, and because I don't believe he was a plant, it accurately reflects his position.

Only insofar as how Pelosi chooses to interpret the meaning of the sign, and re-convey that interpretation to her audience.

　

According to the news shows I’ve seen, they were before. Unless Pelosi never watched the news, never read the papers, or never used the internet, she had to have seen the swastikas at the tea party protests.

What was the original source of the photos? (sorry if you already gave it). I'd swear I recognize the sign in the second photo of your series from press coverage of the DC rally in September.

However, the tea party protests, including the huge one at the Washington D.C. mall, had many posters with Obama=Nazi/swastika signs, and these are far more recent than the Bush/Nazi signs.

There is no doubt Pelosi was aware of this at the impromptu interview. So when she said, without preparation, that people were carrying signs with swastikas to the town hall meetings, I believe she assumed this was true because of the swastika signs at the protests.

But again--many/most of these appear to be(September) responses to Pelosi's (August) comment. Who was using the swastika prior to August 6th? Any photos of tea-partiers using swastikas after that date are really just self-fulfilling prophecies (dismal, to be sure; but inevitable bits of satire by people who [believe they] have just been called Nazis by the most powerful woman in America).

I believe CNN and MSNBC report the signs existed before Pelosi's comments.

I'll have to do some digging when I get more time.

Obviously each station is portraying the situation based on its bias, including Fox. (I say that because so many people say it really is "fair and balanced." I find, as is true for the other stations, that it lacks perspective; thus, it is far from "fair and balanced." The same could be said of the other stations as well.

Fox is useful for the alternate perspective it applies, but it's hard to take them seriously as a "fair and balanced" news source when their web features include a regular column by a "sexpert" (along with the perennial photos of scantily clad female celebrities).

That is my point. She obviously would have seen these signs, including the ones that equate Obama to a Nazi. Thus, I think this is what she was referring to when she said what she did in the moment.

So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m sure it’s boring to read my same argument over and over in my posts.

Yeah; until we can put all the swastika photos/stories (or at least the most prominent ones) into a timeline, frankly we're not going to get much further. I'm far too lazy (er--busy) to tackle such a project--you up for it?

[Elphaba]

Where was all this "ZOMG people are saying the Prezident is a Nazi!!!!!" outrage when protesters were putting swastikas on pictures of Bush?

I think this is a valid point. However, where was your (collective your) anger when Bush did the following;

• Started a war with another country for concocted reasons, which did not hold up under scrutiny.
• Deceived the American public about how badly the war was going. He insisted we were victorious. Additionally, his chief military officer, Gen. Peter Pace, argued that the United States was making “very, very good progress” just two days before the more credible U.S. ambassador to Iraq warned that a civil war was possible in Iraq.
• Gave artificial government statistics to measure progress in the war in Iraq. This included saying that fewer US personnel were dying than was true.
• Initially used excessive force in counterinsurgency warfare instead of a plan to win hearts and minds.
• Refused to listen to experts who knew that ousting Hussein would cause the centuries-old rift between Sunni and Shii’a to explode.
• Approved the use of torture and put Cheney in charge of the program, though Cheney did not tell him everything, and he did not ask.
• Held hands with the Saudi Arabian king.

Why did conservatives get furious when Obama bowed to the Saudi king, but did not when Bush actually held his hand?

I live in a very conservative area, with a very conservative family, and I never heard a peep from any of them.

While I agree the Bush/Nazi signs were wrong, the Obama/Nazi signs are just as absurd.

Finally, because Bush misunderestimated the meaning of a gazillion words, he rarely spoke in accurate and complete sentences. Where was the outrage about that?! :p

Elphaba

[Just_A_Guy]

Finally, because Bush misunderestimated the meaning of a gazillion words, he rarely spoke in accurate and complete sentences. Where was the outrage about that?! :p

Let us not assassinate this lad further, Elphaba. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency madam, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

And for the record I have not now, nor have I ever, defended George Bush's use of the term "nuculaaaar".

[Moksha]

And the specific case Speaker Pelosi was referring to seems to have been a plant.

Oh my gosh, it's The Invasion of the Body Snatchers all over again.

[Moksha]

... "ZOMG people are saying the Prezident is a Nazi!!!!!" ...

This is utter nonsense. Obama, being the master of all socialists, is an avowed enemy of the Nazis and their syndicate of capitalists!!!