Would You Care?

[Shawn]

Snow wrote:

It's a matter of semantics.

You think Christ to be the cornerstone - one small part of the foundation, a stone joining two walls.

We believe that Christ is the entire foundation of the Church.

I've been accused of being attacking so I am going to try and phrase this without the least bit of malice. How does "believing Christ is the entire foundation of a Church" actually play out in the lives of those who attend the church in question (here, it's Mormon). You stated that we believe Christ is the entire foundation, but in my experience as a Latter-day Saint, Jesus Christ remains but a footnote to the religion. What I mean by this is prayers are said in His name, His name is in the title, there were pictures of Him around, and all the important holidays of His life are recognized in one degree or another, but how does Jesus Christ transform lives of individual members to the point where they live for Him because of having experienced spiritual rebirth?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Jul 26 2005, 08:22 PM

Snow wrote:

It's a matter of semantics.

You think Christ to be the cornerstone - one small part of the foundation, a stone joining two walls.

We believe that Christ is the entire foundation of the Church.

I've been accused of being attacking so I am going to try and phrase this without the least bit of malice. How does "believing Christ is the entire foundation of a Church" actually play out in the lives of those who attend the church in question (here, it's Mormon). You stated that we believe Christ is the entire foundation, but in my experience as a Latter-day Saint, Jesus Christ remains but a footnote to the religion. What I mean by this is prayers are said in His name, His name is in the title, there were pictures of Him around, and all the important holidays of His life are recognized in one degree or another, but how does Jesus Christ transform lives of individual members to the point where they live for Him because of having experienced spiritual rebirth?

Shawn,

If Christ is not the center of you spiritual/religious experience, then that is your issue, but not extrapolate your experience to the the Church as a whole. I know who the creator and the Savior is, thank you very much.

[roman]

snow;

Ah, I see you still employ the ole double standard----In one post you speak for every single mormon on the earth and a few post later---you tell Shawn not to do the very think you just did.

Being around lds most of my life I can tell you that some look to JS a long time before they consider Jesus Christ. they look to lds writings and never consider the Bible. So it goes without saying---what their foundation is. they will also tell me how they love to sing praises to JS---how one must enter into eternity thru JS---how the whole idea of thier faith stands or falls on the validity of the testimony of JS----

I could go on, but you get the idea. Shawn is right---Jesus -at least to some lds----is an after thought.

roman

[Traveler]

Originally posted by roman@Jul 27 2005, 03:04 AM

snow;

Ah, I see you still employ the ole double standard----In one post you speak for every single mormon on the earth and a few post later---you tell Shawn not to do the very think you just did.

Being around lds most of my life I can tell you that some look to JS a long time before they consider Jesus Christ. they look to lds writings and never consider the Bible. So it goes without saying---what their foundation is. they will also tell me how they love to sing praises to JS---how one must enter into eternity thru JS---how the whole idea of thier faith stands or falls on the validity of the testimony of JS----

I could go on, but you get the idea. Shawn is right---Jesus -at least to some lds----is an after thought.

roman

Thank you Roman for demonstrating what it means to be a real Christian and always think of Jesus first - your post is the perfect example of how you really think. We LDS will get right to work on the little tiny speck harming our spiritual eyes.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Jul 27 2005, 02:04 AM

snow;

Ah, I see you still employ the ole double standard----In one post you speak for every single mormon on the earth and a few post later---you tell Shawn not to do the very think you just did.

  roman

Wrong Roman,

We, as Mormons, have a body of stated beliefs comprised of scripture with include our Articles of Fatih. That corpus clearly state the foundation of our our belief - being Christ. I am not speaking for all Mormons, I am reporting our jointly approved belief.

Being around lds most of my life I can tell you that some look to JS a long time before they consider Jesus Christ. they look to lds writings and never consider the Bible. So it goes without saying---what their foundation is. they will also tell me how they love to sing praises to JS---how one must enter into eternity thru JS---how the whole idea of thier faith stands or falls on the validity of the testimony of JS----

Deliberate misstatements won't get you too far here Roman. We are all too much aware of what we think and believe for someone with only a vague acquaintence with our faith to tell us what we think and believe - in a way that directly opposes what we actually think and believe.

For example... find me one Mormon, just one, that never considers the Bible. Just one Roman. Go ahead, I'll wait. There's 12 million of us so it shouldn't be hard to find one. Actually, I am well aware that you cannot since Mormons, as a people and by common consent, accept the Bible as the word of God. You are not only wrong, but deliberately and completely wrong.

Second, find me one single bit of LDS doctrine that states the primacy of JS over Christ. You can't do it. Your whole perspective relies on defining Mormons in a way that defies their self-understanding. You may not be an anti-Mormon but your tactic is the exact same. Misdefine, misdirect, misapply. When an anti-Mormon is honest, most their entire case falls.

But, let's give you the benefit of the doubt. If you think you have a case - then you go right ahead, using LDS doctrince and practices to prove your point.

[Shawn]

SNOW WROTE:

Shawn,

If Christ is not the center of you spiritual/religious experience, then that is your issue, but not extrapolate your experience to the the Church as a whole. I know who the creator and the Savior is, thank you very much.

Would you mind describing Him as you know Him, Snow?

Shawn

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Jul 27 2005, 04:50 PM

SNOW WROTE:

Shawn,

If Christ is not the center of you spiritual/religious experience, then that is your issue, but not extrapolate your experience to the the Church as a whole. I know who the creator and the Savior is, thank you very much.

Would you mind describing Him as you know Him, Snow?

Shawn

I don't know what your motives are and so try not to impute to you that which is not in your heart but, and forgive me, your question seems to me a challenge - that if I say the right words in the proper order, pleasing unto to you, that you will judge me as having passed the test, whatever test and that I don't care to do.

Pass.

[Shawn]

Snow wrote:

I don't know what your motives are and so try not to impute to you that which is not in your heart but, and forgive me, your question seems to me a challenge - that if I say the right words in the proper order, pleasing unto to you, that you will judge me as having passed the test, whatever test and that I don't care to do.

Pass.

I understand. In response I would love to descibe him as I know Him.

Being born of a virgin, with God himself as the Father and Mary His mortal mother, Jesus was created not as other men and women by blood or lust of the flesh but immaculately. Without the stain of human sin upon Him at birth He came forth 100 percent God and 100 percent man – God’s perfect offering for sin.

Whatever a man could feel and experience, Jesus could feel and experience. And whatever God is, Jesus was. With these attributes, He becomes both our empathetic mediator before our all-good and holy God, and also All God, able to carry the weight of the world successfully, righteously, and as a manifestation of God in the flesh.

In His humanity, he faced trials, persecution, and mockery; as God He loved those who rejected Him and carried their evil ways upon His sinless frame. As man, He knew temptation, desire, hunger, and thirst; as God He resisted evil, rebuked the Devil, and overcame the demands of the flesh. As man He ate and drank with friends and disciples, wept at the tomb of Lazarus, and accepted invitations to sit with sinners; as God He turned water into wine, multiplied fishes and loaves, raised Lazarus from the dead, and forgave the sinners’ crimes. As man He was slapped, beaten, crowned with thorns, and rejected by His friends. He sweated in blood, was pierced through his hands and feet, was tortured as a reject, a criminal, a Sabbath-breaker, and a blasphemer. As God He endured the incomprehensible demands of justice, offered Himself in undefiled innocence, held Himself to the cross out of perfect and pure love for the sinner, and willingly accepted the full and furious wrath of our all just God for every single sin, sickness, wrong-doing, failure, and transgression that has ever occurred or ever will occur in or out of the heart of Man.

Because God offered His Only Begotten Son as the supreme sacrifice for the world, and because the Son willingly gave Himself over to all the misery and suffering incurred from God’s perfectly just wrath, no offering could ever take

His place; no other deed, sacrifice, payment, or attempt at worthiness will gain acceptance from Almighty God other than the righteous and complete payment of His Son. There is no act, deed, amount of money, service, work, diligence, ordinance, attendance, temple rite, testimony, or self-sacrificial offering of any kind that could ever take any part of restoring fallen humanity to the presence of God. I cannot emphasize this point too emphatically. Such faithless acts or attitudes aren’t needed, aren’t worthy, and would never meet the demands of perfect justice that God demands for sin and rebellion. Few human ideologies more readily mock God, religious or otherwise, than for human beings to think they could ever do anything to contribute to the suffering, sacrifice, payment or atonement for sin Jesus gave on the cross.

I hope you will forever judge me on these words, Snow.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Jul 28 2005, 05:30 PM

I hope you will forever judge me on these words, Snow.

Of course I WOULDN'T judge by those words Shawn. Your ability to string together certain words in a certain order tells nothing about the sincerity of your heart, your integrity and your service to Christ by being in the service of your fellow man.

[Shawn]

Snow wrote:

Of course I WOULDN'T judge by those words Shawn. Your ability to string together certain words in a certain order tells nothing about the sincerity of your heart, your integrity and your service to Christ by being in the service of your fellow man.

I'm asking you to judge me by these words. I mean, this is a medium based on words alone. You can't know me, personally, or judge me by my actions (unless you're my neighbor Bob going by the name Snow!). So please, since we are exchanging in a word medium, judge me by what I write. And I promise what I write comes from my heart, and is evidenced in the actions of my life (that is, when I'm not being a total failure, which does happen on occasion).

It sort of seems like you are either on the offensive with me, or you are being very defensive with me. Either way, I'm sorry I bring this kind of response out from you. I am trying to "hear" you explain what things mean to you. SInce you were reticent to share, I thought I'd answer my own question as a token of my willingness to open up. When I did, I was met with another remark like the one quoted above. In earlier posts, you make comments about Jesus, that you know Him, that you see Him for what He is. All I asked was for you to tell us what He is to you. Will you answer now?

IJA,

Shawn

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Snow+Jul 28 2005, 07:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jul 28 2005, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Shawn@Jul 28 2005, 05:30 PM

I hope you will forever judge me on these words, Snow.

Of course I WOULDN'T judge by those words Shawn. Your ability to string together certain words in a certain order tells nothing about the sincerity of your heart, your integrity and your service to Christ by being in the service of your fellow man.

Good post Snow....

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Jul 28 2005, 06:53 PM

Snow wrote:

Of course I WOULDN'T judge by those words Shawn. Your ability to string together certain words in a certain order tells nothing about the sincerity of your heart, your integrity and your service to Christ by being in the service of your fellow man.

I'm asking you to judge me by these words. I mean, this is a medium based on words alone. You can't know me, personally, or judge me by my actions (unless you're my neighbor Bob going by the name Snow!). So please, since we are exchanging in a word medium, judge me by what I write. And I promise what I write comes from my heart, and is evidenced in the actions of my life (that is, when I'm not being a total failure, which does happen on occasion).

It sort of seems like you are either on the offensive with me, or you are being very defensive with me. Either way, I'm sorry I bring this kind of response out from you. I am trying to "hear" you explain what things mean to you. SInce you were reticent to share, I thought I'd answer my own question as a token of my willingness to open up. When I did, I was met with another remark like the one quoted above. In earlier posts, you make comments about Jesus, that you know Him, that you see Him for what He is. All I asked was for you to tell us what He is to you. Will you answer now?

IJA,

Shawn

I don't know why you are so anxious to be judged but if I were to judge you, it wouldn't be based on what you say explicitly. I can say anything and influence others to think one thing or t'other about me, neither of which might not be true. I prefer to try and intuit what or who you are based on what's between the lines, what you don't intend, necessarily, for other's to understand about you; and by the way, I am not on the offensive with you any more than you are with me. I wish you no ill, I simply respond to what I think you are really saying.

For example, going by your few posts and the title of your impending book, I'd say this about you: You think that YOU understand what the "good news" is all about and any Mormon rank and file member or leader, to the extent they disagree with your specific interpretation of Christianity is wrong. That is - either they believe the way you want them to believe or they are in error; and the way in which they are in error is that Mormons aren't really born-again - they just don't get it. They're all focused on actually obeying God but that's wrong - that's just a big guilt trip. What they really need is to just believe; just have faith, stop trying to live a Christ-like life and simply accept Christ as the Savior and then they can be born-again then they can be free for Christ to work the miracle in their souls, not by sweat and blood serving Christ by serving others but just by accepting.

So, if I'mm judging you, I'd judge that you have little idea about how Mormons are reborn and how they accept Christ.

Now - sure, you may not like how I bottom-lined it but that's your essential position although if you were to put the specific words into the specific order, you would make it sound kinder, gentler, less dogmatic and judgemental. Right?

[Shawn]

Close to being right, I suppose. But I take exception to a few things you wrote. For example, I really don't think I am looking for people to agree with ME. I reject notions of doctrinal relativity and believe there exists a confirmed right and wrong when it comes to Jesus/God/Religion, etc. I think the Bible lays the main facts out nicely (but within context and as a whole volume of books). If you were to disagree with ME, I really don't mind at all. Especially if it is in regard to one of my opinions. But if you were to disagree with what the Bible says (in context and as a whole remember) then I would NOT attack you for differing with me, but would try and get you to express why you believe the way you believe. The way I see it (and this is my opinion) Latter-day Saints often claim the Jesus experience and being Christian, etc., but lack an understanding of the essence of the Good News. Now you could argue (as you have) that I don't understand what Latter-day Saints believe. My question to you is again, explain your Christianity to me to show me where I err. In this way I may be proven wrong or right? You see, I think it is easy to say that I don't understand Mormon theology or the Mormon experience. But I want you to teach me why I don't through your subjective experience. What have I missed in my years as a Latter-day Saint? Tell me why all the accusations against the Church (when it comes to Jesus) are wrong. I am seriously and honestly waiting to hear. Because to be rather frank, there are times when I do wonder if I missed some key lessons on Jesus over my years of being in the Church. I don't think I did, but I wonder sometimes. And it's also important to know that I fight as hard for LDS with my collegues in school as I do with LDS in places like this. Teach me what I've missed Snow. I'm open and willing to hear what you have to say.

[huma17]

Originally posted by Snow@Jul 25 2005, 11:26 PM

There is no proof that BY was involved so the argument goes that he created the climate of fear and us-versus-them hysteria that made it possible for such a crime to occur.

Such an argument has two necessary but ridiculous propositions:

1. People are sheep, not agents unto themselves, responsible for their own actions.

2. That is was BY, and not the persecutors and tormentors of the Saints who was responsible for the climate.

Go figure.

Well put.

[huma17]

Originally posted by Shawn@Jul 26 2005, 08:13 PM

Huma17

Please don't feel belittled. I am sorry if I offended. Really. My intent was to communicate that my saying "you really don't know anything at all" was philosophically based. Meaning, outside of a metaphysical interpretation of knowing, humankind has trouble proving it knows anything. I really hate personal attacks and I frankly apologize for writing in a way that sounded like one. I did not mean it as such.

IJA,

Shawn

Thanks.

[roman]

Originally posted by Snow+Jul 27 2005, 06:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jul 27 2005, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--roman@Jul 27 2005, 02:04 AM

snow;

Ah, I see you still employ the ole double standard----In one post you speak for every single mormon on the earth and a few post later---you tell Shawn not to do the very think you just did.

  roman

Wrong Roman,

We, as Mormons, have a body of stated beliefs comprised of scripture with include our Articles of Fatih. That corpus clearly state the foundation of our our belief - being Christ. I am not speaking for all Mormons, I am reporting our jointly approved belief.

Being around lds most of my life I can tell you that some look to JS a long time before they consider Jesus Christ. they look to lds writings and never consider the Bible. So it goes without saying---what their foundation is. they will also tell me how they love to sing praises to JS---how one must enter into eternity thru JS---how the whole idea of thier faith stands or falls on the validity of the testimony of JS----

Deliberate misstatements won't get you too far here Roman. We are all too much aware of what we think and believe for someone with only a vague acquaintence with our faith to tell us what we think and believe - in a way that directly opposes what we actually think and believe.

For example... find me one Mormon, just one, that never considers the Bible. Just one Roman. Go ahead, I'll wait. There's 12 million of us so it shouldn't be hard to find one. Actually, I am well aware that you cannot since Mormons, as a people and by common consent, accept the Bible as the word of God. You are not only wrong, but deliberately and completely wrong.

Second, find me one single bit of LDS doctrine that states the primacy of JS over Christ. You can't do it. Your whole perspective relies on defining Mormons in a way that defies their self-understanding. You may not be an anti-Mormon but your tactic is the exact same. Misdefine, misdirect, misapply. When an anti-Mormon is honest, most their entire case falls.

But, let's give you the benefit of the doubt. If you think you have a case - then you go right ahead, using LDS doctrince and practices to prove your point.

snow;

sorry i haven'r responded to your tactics----er i mean post but I work out of town and and some times must leave on a moments notice. I will get back to you when I can

Ain't this great---just like old times

Just one point----If I gave you the names of 100 lds that only look to the BoM and not the Bible---what would that prove? Face it---there are all kinds of lds at all stages of belief and unbelief---for you to not acknowledge that is not being intelectually honest. There is no way in the world that you can speak on the subject of every single lds as you do. I would agree though that on the average you are right on lds understanding of faith and practice and doctrine----but you must also agree with me --that there are some lds nuts out there---I just happen to knowq a few of them.

You say i have a vauge aquantince with your faith-------now there is deliberate falsehood if I ever read one----{ your trying to make points by misspeaking the truth] ----like I said a few post ago-----I live around and inteact with lds EVERYDAY

Lastly---I NEVER challenged lds doctrine over Jesus Christ------you are deliberaly misspeaking AGAIN-----I said that some lds believe exactly what i stated earlier---You staement says that you believe every single lds have a complete understanding of lds beliefs----WITH NO ERROR----face it if you had a point you lost it with all the misses you had----- mis stakes----mis quotes-----mis points

well it look like I did answer you after all---

roman

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Jul 30 2005, 12:36 PM

Just one point----If I gave you the names of 100 lds that only look to the BoM and not the Bible---what would that prove? Face it---there are all kinds of lds at all stages of belief and unbelief---for you to not acknowledge that is not being intelectually honest. There is no way in the world that you can speak on the subject of every single lds as you do. I would agree though that on the average you are right on lds understanding of faith and practice and doctrine----but you must also agree with me --that there are some lds nuts out there---I just happen to knowq a few of them.

We are hardly talking about weird odd balls. There are evangelicals who murder because they think God told them to. That's no indictment on evangelicals as a whole. The fact is that Mormons, as a people, acept the Bible as well as the BoM. You are not a credible witness if you say otherwise. It's written into our Articles of Faith. The Bible forms the major part of our scripture curriculum. It's quoted in all our meetings and classes. Check our official and non official websites, our books, our magazines, our General Conferences. It is an essential and basic part of our worship, from the rank and file member up to the prophet. Period. To say otherwise (oddballs aside) only makes you wrong.

You say i have a vauge aquantince with your faith-------now there is deliberate  falsehood if I ever read one----{ your trying to make points by misspeaking the truth] ----like I said a few post ago-----I live around and inteact with lds EVERYDAY

I give you kudos for trying but your posts show me, an educated and lifelong member, that you really don't have a reliable grasp of our faith. Knowing a bunch of us does not make you anything but vaguely in touch with how and what we think, and why. Your understanding is weak, very weak at best. That's not a fault. You are probably knowledgeable about your own faith - just not ours.

Lastly---I NEVER challenged lds doctrine over Jesus Christ------you are deliberaly misspeaking AGAIN 

Roman - here is the exact quote you made: "Being around lds most of my life I can tell you that some look to JS a long time before they consider Jesus Christ. they look to lds writings and never consider the Bible." I responded directly to your statement by saying "Second, find me one single bit of LDS doctrine that states the primacy of JS over Christ. You can't do it."

For you to say I misspoke is nonsense. There's the proof of it.

You staement says that you believe every single lds have a complete understanding of lds beliefs----WITH NO ERROR----face it if you had a point you lost it with all the misses you had----- mis stakes----mis quotes-----mis points

Now that just plain wrong, completely wrong. I never said any such thing. Check my posts; go on, check em. If you can find anything such thing from me, I will... there's no point in promising anything cuz I just didn't say it and my posts will bear that out.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Jul 28 2005, 09:37 PM

For example, I really don't think I am looking for people to agree with ME. I reject notions of doctrinal relativity and believe there exists a confirmed right and wrong when it comes to Jesus/God/Religion, etc. I think the Bible lays the main facts out nicely (but within context and as a whole volume of books). If you were to disagree with ME, I really don't mind at all. Especially if it is in regard to one of my opinions. But if you were to disagree with what the Bible says (in context and as a whole remember) then I would NOT attack you for differing with me, but would try and get you to express why you believe the way you believe. The way I see it (and this is my opinion) Latter-day Saints often claim the Jesus experience and being Christian, etc., but lack an understanding of the essence of the Good News. Now you could argue (as you have) that I don't understand what Latter-day Saints believe.

And that's my point. You understand the "good news" and to the extent that someone, a Mormon, understands it differently than you tell them to, they just don't get it and will not get it until they agree with you.

My question to you is again, explain your Christianity to me to show me where I err.  In this way I may be proven wrong or right?  You see, I think it is easy to say that I don't understand Mormon theology or the Mormon experience.  But I want you to teach me why I don't through your subjective experience.  What have I missed in my years as a Latter-day Saint?  Tell me why all the accusations against the Church (when it comes to Jesus) are wrong.

I have no desire to explain exactly why your accusations are wrong. Personally I think you should know better, but my beef with you is not that you don't understand LDS theology. I think you do. My issue with you is that you are so egotistical that you think YOUR experience with Christ is valid and the average LDS experience with Christ is less valid - that your's is the true experience and the Mormon experience is not that of truly being born-again and having His image burned into our countenances - that your path to Christ is good, and ours is bogus.

Now go and ahead and pretty up my take on you if you care to - so that is sounds more palatable to those that you are trying to sway.

[roman]

Ah snow you still have the ability to give a non answer to a direct post.

you really have your spin machine well oiled up----now I remember while i stop posting here years ago

What is that word Bat used on you----you know the one----

Any way simply because you fail to realize that outside your little world there are some that turn lds doctrine on its head---and still call themselfs lds---some lds who believe different from the standard way you would have them believe---you turn a deaf ear to them and claim that they don't exsist.

I know lds who always look to the BoM and don't care that the Bible contradicts or says something otherwise----

You would have me believe that their are no lds still having mulipte wifes---but there is and they call themselfs lds---ain't plural marriage a no no in lds doctrine---didn't your prophet claim a revalation from God on this---but these people still practice it and still call themselfs lds

i know what your faith statements say and i know how the majority of lds interpert your doctrine---just as you do-------But why take the stance that the lds church has absoluty no nutcases when it come to those matters------that belief of yours takes all the steam out of your case

Now so you will know I never said that the mojority of lds never consider the Bible---my whole point was and still is that some---don't consider it Some some some ---how you got all or the most out of that is ---well your problem

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Jul 31 2005, 02:48 AM

Ah snow you still have the ability to give a non answer to a direct post.

you really have your spin machine well oiled up----now I remember while i stop posting here years ago

  What is that word Bat used on you----you know the one----

What I see is someone who doesn't like it when I contradict them - straight on - and I know what I'm talking about. When someone is flat wrong or dishonest - I say it. When someone is idiotic (and I'm not saying that about you) I say that too.

Any way simply because you fail to realize that outside your little world there are some that turn lds doctrine on its head---and still call themselfs lds---some lds who believe different from the standard way you would have them believe---you turn a deaf ear to them and claim that they don't exsist.

I know lds who always look to the BoM and don't care that the Bible contradicts or says something otherwise----

That's just plain false. Except for oddballs, non-believers and crazies, we Mormons, as a people, believe the Bible. Period. Say otherwise and you don't know what you are talking about. We don't believe that the Bible and BOM contradict each other, we believe they contradict each other. It is interpretation that makes some people, like you, think that there is contradiction.

Although this site is slow, it is still read by a good number of Mormon. Find someone we all know is a regular and believing Mormon that accepts the BoM but not the Bible - You can't do it and you won't do it because you don't know what you are talking about.

You would have me believe that their are no lds still having mulipte wifes---but there is and they call themselfs lds---ain't plural marriage a no no in lds doctrine---didn't your prophet claim a revalation from God on this---but these people still practice it and still call themselfs lds

Now this is where I am tempted to say that your post is idiotic or nearly so and you should know better - Who cares what they call themselves. They could call themselves full-blooded Canadian mule-deer but unless they really are full-blooded Canandian mule deer, then they aren't. If someone had multiple wives, and the Church knew about it, they would be excommunicated toot sweet. Period. Sure there are fundamentalist who call themselves LDS but that doesn't make them members of our Church. Like someone who says they are Christian but don't accept Christ - them saying they are Christian means nothing, just as you claim of LDS polygamists means nothing.

  i know what your faith statements say and i know how the majority of lds interpert your doctrine---just as you do-------But why take the stance that the lds church has absoluty no nutcases when it come to those matters------that belief of yours takes all the steam out of your case

Why do you play that stupid game. You know perfectly well that I said the exact opposite. I said, and I quote, "We are hardly talking about weird odd balls. There are evangelicals who murder because they think God told them to. That's no indictment on evangelicals as a whole."

Obviously I acknowledged that oddballs exists and that they are excluded from this conversation because they are not relevent to the point being made. Follow along Roman.

Now so you will know I never said that the mojority of lds never consider the Bible---my whole point was and still is that some---don't consider it Some some some ---how you got all or the most out of that is ---well your problem

Here's where I have to point out dishonesty or at the very least, you're being very inobservant. I never said "most." You are making that up. (check my posts - see what I wrote - it's all there) Follow the argument, which is, Mormons as a Church and a people accept the Bible. Period. That disbelieving Mormons or oddballs might believe differently is no more an indictment against Mormons than is a murder who was once also a Christian.

[begood2]

Originally posted by Snow@Jul 31 2005, 11:46 AM

That's just plain false. Except for oddballs, non-believers and crazies, we Mormons, as a people, believe the Bible. Period. Say otherwise and you don't know what you are talking about. We don't believe that the Bible and BOM contradict each other, _(we believe they contradict each other). It is interpretation that makes some people, like you, think that there is contradiction.

I think you meant to say complement each other.

[Snow]

Yes - thank you. They (the BoM and Bible) complement, not contradict, each other. It is a central tenet of our faith. Not believing it makes you less than wholly Mormon just as not believing the Bible makes you less than wholly Christian.

[Cal]

My experience is that the LDS Church leaders don't really care what you believe as long as you don't preach it from the pupit or local newspapers, and that you pay your tithing, of course.

When the Church wants to avoid controversy, it can just ignore the issue. Haven't you noticed. You also might have noticed that in recent years the TV adds have changed from emphasizing the BoM to emphasizing the Bible. A blatant announcement that the BoM is no longer considered a literal history of the ancient native americans would be to big a pill for most members to swallow. Better to just subtly deemphasize it, at least publically.

[roman]

Originally posted by Snow@Jul 31 2005, 11:46 AM

, we believe they contradict each other.

snow;

You make it tooo easy my friend. Everyone knows that you were speaking of the Bible and the BoM here----And yes everyone also know what you really meant-----------But can I save this quote of yours ---it goes right along with

1. Adam-god

2. plural marraige

3. quakers on the moon

4 and a million other famous lds quotes

-----I'm playing man--don't have a cow

No, in reality I made a simple statement that I know some lds who favor the BoM so highly over the Bible that they never consider the Bible

That in and of itself is a statement I know to be true---how do I prove it or back it up on a public message board----I can't and neither can you disprove it to be false

Oh you tried in your usuall fashion of misdicerted thoughts--attacks on me--- trying to insert words into my mouth ---name calling and so on----just to try and make a point that can not be made. All of which you will deny. Most people know that what I say is true ---this you also know but will never acknowledge.

you have no authority or say in who claims to be a mormon or even what the qualifacations of belief for a lds are. If a canadian mule dear what to be a mormon--on what grounds can you deny him.

face it snow---in your zeal to pronounce me as wrong--you will say anything as proof of your statement I quoted. You lose all and i mean all resectability when you do these things--and i've seen you do it many times in the past

You should know better by now---I used to get out on the school yard playground and act like first graders with you---but I went away for 2-3 years and grew up------so go get off the playground-----and learn how to properly engage a topic or statement head on instead of from the backside and from around the corner.

Stop make stuff up and just deal with what printed in front of you.

I'm also leaving town---so i won't see your responce--if you leave one

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman+Aug 6 2005, 02:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (roman @ Aug 6 2005, 02:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Jul 31 2005, 11:46 AM

, we believe they contradict each other.

snow;

You make it tooo easy my friend. Everyone knows that you were speaking of the Bible and the BoM here----And yes everyone also know what you really meant-----------But can I save this quote of yours ---it goes right along with

1. Adam-god

2. plural marraige

3. quakers on the moon

4 and a million other famous lds quotes

This is why I usually avoid debating topics with you Roman - you make no sense and have no command of the LDS facts at your disposal.

You just tried to show that the Bible and the BoM of Mormon contradict each other and list 4 items that you think prove it. Okay Roman - put up or shut up... Where in the BoM (or Bible) does it discuss Adam-God, plural marriage (alright, the Bible allows it but the BoM does not - unless specifically ordained by God) quakers on the Moon or "a million other famous lds quote."?

You needn't answer because you can't. You don't know the answers. The problem is that you sought to compare the Bible and the BoM by referencing issue extraneous to both. That won't work. Try again. This time stick to the topic --- a topic you started.

No, in reality I made a simple statement that I know some lds who favor the BoM so highly over the Bible that they never consider the Bible That in and of itself is a statement I know to be true---how do I prove it or back it up on a public message board----I can't and neither can you disprove it to be false

Think Roman, think. The way you could prove your point is by starting a poll, asking only for responses from believing Mormons, inquiring if they look to the BoM while ignoring the Bible. That's just one way. Another way is to look at our websites and publications. Is there any indication that the Bible is deprecated while the BoM is elevated? That two ways. Another way is to attend our services and hear what is said. That's three ways. Look at our published scriptures - the Bible comes first. That's four ways. Attend Sunday School and note that the Bible is taught 2 out of every four years while other scriptures are taught with only half the frequency of the Bible. That's five ways. Golly, why didn't you think of that? The answer is because you know next to nothing about Mormonism.

  Oh you tried in  your usuall fashion of misdicerted thoughts--attacks on me--- trying to insert words into my mouth ---name calling and so on----just to try and make a point that can not be made.

Bull! Every word I wrote is right here on this thread. Show me where I attacked you, called you names, inserted words in your mouth, and so on? Go ahead, show me.

I, on the other hand have already shown, in my post of July 31, where, using your own words, how you claimed the polar opposite of what I acutally said... and now you are the one claiming that I am doing what you, as I showed, are guilty of.

Again - put up or shut up. Where did I do what you claim I did. I always back up my claims. Thus far - you have not.

Most people know that what I say is true

At yet, not a single one has agreed with you. How do you figure that?

face it snow---in your zeal to pronounce me as wrong--you will say anything as proof of your statement I quoted. You lose all  and i mean all resectability when you do these things--and i've seen you do it many times in the past

Really now Roman? Besides in the recesses of your mind, how do you measure that? What's your evidence? What rationale leads to that assumption? Care to back up your assertion for a change?

You should know better by now---I used to get out on the school yard playground and act like first graders with you---but I went away for 2-3 years and grew up------so go get off the playground-----and learn how to properly engage a topic or statement head on instead of from the backside and from around the corner.

...and yet you have come here, made false assertions, false accusations, made an illogical argument (that the Bible and BoM contradict each other because of some non-BoM/Bible issues) Tell me about how mature that is Roman.

Last chance - stay on topic, don't fabricate and give us your evidence to support your supposition.

Here's my prediction... you won't and if you even respond, it will be to complain, probably incorrectly, about me and won't address your claim in any meaningful way... this you will do even knowing that I predicted it.

Best of luck.