semantics

[bytebear]

This topics seems to be akin to a 2nd grader wondering why their teacher isn't teaching them algebra. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Milk before meat. To everything a season, and all that. It's not that these things are secret. But there is an order to understanding, just as in mathematics, and in life. You must learn to stand before you walk, walk before you run, and learn how to discern truth through the Holy Ghost before we can understand our eternal potential.

[HiJolly]

OK but this is in a LDS context for an LDS audience. My question is about the non LDS context and the way (I believe LDS refer to them as investigators) are handled when it come to their questions. I asked this question of some of my LDS friends(to include the missionaries) and they say that sometimes people misunderstand the godhood teaching as polytheism. OK but why not take the time and have a discussion rather than say "we dont teach that". To me this is seems to be the root of many misunderstandings of the LDS faith.

I agree, but I also think that even for someone like myself, who loves to talk ad infinitum (and some say, ad nauseum) there simply isn't time to do so. People have other things to do. For those that don't, I end up leaving their homes at 2:00am and such.

HiJolly

[ryanh]

I in my curiosity about the church have run into this type of thing time and again myself. Wouldn't it be better to just let go of this secrecy and be upfront?

Hi BenRaines I never thought there was a secret to it either until my friend got the responses she did from her own family and clergy. I thought this was a point of faith taught in church. I don't know what the secret teaching was/is.

So which is it? You've been seeing lots of this "time and again", or you never saw it until your friend recounted her experiences to you? Something doesn't jive in the way I'm reading those two posts.

The missionaries say that there are things they aren't allowed to teach until after the subject has been baptized.

I've served a mission and never heard of any restrictions. If someone wanted to know, it was discussed. There is such an idea that is is best to present milk before meat that has to be taken into consideration, and meat needs to be forthcoming. But, as Elder Boyd K Packer teaches, that is a case by case situation.

Some are so near spiritual death that they must be spoonfed on the broth of fellowship, or nourished carefully on activities and programs. As the scriptures say, they must have milk before meat (see 1 Cor. 3:2; D&C 19:22). But we must take care lest the only nourishment they receive thereafter is that broth.

I've never heard of anyone trying to keep doctrines secret, nor encouragement to perpetuate differences based on semantics only. Don't know what happened in the case of your friend, if there is just some gross miscommunication on her part, or on the part of others, but something is not as it seems IMO.

One blunt thought Lst, since you do seem to be someone ready to digest meat - would you really care what the doctrines were if you were to receive a witness from the Holy Ghost that correct principles were taught in this Church? Conversion through intellect/understanding is a cheap substitute for true conversion through the Holy Ghost. That latter will persist where the former may wither and die in the heat of the sun (see Matt. 13:4–8).

[bytebear]

OK but this is in a LDS context for an LDS audience. My question is about the non LDS context and the way (I believe LDS refer to them as investigators) are handled when it come to their questions. I asked this question of some of my LDS friends(to include the missionaries) and they say that sometimes people misunderstand the godhood teaching as polytheism. OK but why not take the time and have a discussion rather than say "we dont teach that". To me this is seems to be the root of many misunderstandings of the LDS faith.

But we don't teach that. The godhead is one God made of three beings in perfect harmony. Just as a married couple is one entity, made up of two people. And we are told we can become one with God, (sometimes described as becoming gods), and yet there is still only one God. How that works? That's a philosophical question, not a doctrinal one. Doctrine states there is one God. Doctrine says the Godhead is made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost which is one God. Your interpretation may vary.

[Vort]

Vort never heard of what? The teaching on Godhood/eternal progression or the denial of such because of the presence of the uninitiated?

I never heard of any Latter-day Saint refusing to teach LDS doctrine because the people were investigating the Church. If anything, the opposite is true -- we're only too eager to every little scrap of doctrine to anyone who asks a casual question, even if that "doctrine" is of questionable validity or narrow application.

In my experience, if Mormons have a weakness vis-a-vis doctrinal exposition, it's that we talk too much, not too little.

[bytebear]

I never heard of any Latter-day Saint refusing to teach LDS doctrine because the people were investigating the Church. If anything, the opposite is true -- we're only too eager to every little scrap of doctrine to anyone who asks a casual question, even if that "doctrine" is of questionable validity or narrow application.

In my experience, if Mormons have a weakness vis-a-vis doctrinal exposition, it's that we talk too much, not too little.

I agree. I am reminded of when Mitt Romney was questioned on a radio program about specific doctrines. So inappropriate, but what can you do. Anyway, he handled it well, but the radio host kept disbelieving his explanations, to which Romney said, "Do you trust that I know my religion better than you know my religion?" and the host said, "well, I don't know" which really meant that even when given straight from the horses' mouth information, many people still don't believe the truth. So, I don't know that you feel like things are being kept secret, but that you cannot accept the most basic of answers, and feel there must be something deeper or dare I say ominous that we just aren't telling you.

[prisonchaplain]

I have been as of recent having an excellent dialog with some missionaries in my area and some of my more thoroughly educated mormon friends and it seems to me that there really are a lot of commonalities between lds teaching and a lot of the rest of Christianity (maybe not the charismatic/evangelical movement).

I was feeling all warm and fuzzy about this...then the little paranthetical part that threw me under the bus! :-)

[bytebear]

I was feeling all warm and fuzzy about this...then the little paranthetical part that threw me under the bus! :-)

Well, everyone knows that charismatic/evangelicals are just a big cult.

(ducking)

[Lstinthwrld]

So which is it? You've been seeing lots of this "time and again", or you never saw it until your friend recounted her experiences to you? Something doesn't jive in the way I'm reading those two posts.

If you look at the two snippets of posts that you present here in context you will see I am referring to two different things. One being my perceived idea of not discussing with non initiated people and the other the clergy just outright denying a teaching to an uninitiated family member when it is in fact taught

I've served a mission and never heard of any restrictions. If someone wanted to know, it was discussed. There is such an idea that is is best to present milk before meat that has to be taken into consideration, and meat needs to be forthcoming. But, as Elder Boyd K Packer teaches, that is a case by case situation.

I agree the missionaries I talk to are very educated and forthright people and they haven't told me anything is off limits.

I've never heard of anyone trying to keep doctrines secret, nor encouragement to perpetuate differences based on semantics only. Don't know what happened in the case of your friend, if there is just some gross miss communication on her part, or on the part of others, but something is not as it seems IMO.

I agree but I talked to her stepdad and he says it id indeed how it all happened. She is very disturbed over the issue.

One blunt thought Lst, since you do seem to be someone ready to digest meat - would you really care what the doctrines were if you were to receive a witness from the Holy Ghost that correct principles were taught in this Church? Conversion through intellect/understanding is a cheap substitute for true conversion through the Holy Ghost. That latter will persist where the former may wither and die in the heat of the sun (see Matt. 13:4–8).

I would not care if that were the case. Now having said that I (obviously) am not LDS but I agree with 99.9% percent of the beliefs /practices of the LDS church. Truth is truth whether you are initiated or not and I guess that is my point.

[Lstinthwrld]

Wow I really screwed this reply up. Sorry I hope everyone can understand it.

[Lstinthwrld]

This topics seems to be akin to a 2nd grader wondering why their teacher isn't teaching them algebra. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Milk before meat. To everything a season, and all that. It's not that these things are secret. But there is an order to understanding, just as in mathematics, and in life. You must learn to stand before you walk, walk before you run, and learn how to discern truth through the Holy Ghost before we can understand our eternal potential.

Ok so let's be clear here. Are you saying the Holu Ghost as the mormons understand it is the only way to the truth?

[prisonchaplain]

Well, everyone knows that charismatic/evangelicals are just a big cult.

(ducking)

Which is my point, exactly...don't you see? We share . . .

[Lstinthwrld]

I was feeling all warm and fuzzy about this...then the little paranthetical part that threw me under the bus! :-)

Sorry not trying to involve a bus. I was just making a vague reference to the doctirinal differences that's all. The charismatic/evangelical movement seems to be pretty litereal where others like Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism seem to take a little more on allegory and share a little more with the mormon theology thats all.

Not trying to offend.

[prisonchaplain]

So where do you draw the line between 'not knowing' and 'deliberate misleading'? Can we do that?

HiJolly

In his example the bishop said that the church did not teach Eternal Progression, then in private, he said the church did, but such truths were not shared with the unbaptized. My guess is that if such an incident took place, then the bishop may have over-interpreted the "line upon line, precept upon precept" principle.

I believe it was the Apostle Paul who spoke of giving milk before meat. On the other hand, when the child asks a "meat" question, we answer as best we can, and only revert to "you'll understand when you're older," if we have to.

[prisonchaplain]

Sorry not trying to involve a bus. I was just making a vague reference to the doctirinal differences that's all. The charismatic/evangelical movement seems to be pretty litereal where others like Eastern Orthodoxy/Catholicism seem to take a little more on allegory and share a little more with the mormon theology thats all.

Not trying to offend.

I did smile at the end...:-)

I understand your thought. On the other hand, in many ways, LDS theology and religious practice are more in line with charismatic and pentecostalism, than with mainstream churches. Sensing the Spirit, gaining a testimony, prayers for healing, etc. Also, the believe in continuing revelation...you take it further than we do, but at least we accept the core idea.

[bytebear]

Ok so let's be clear here. Are you saying the Holy Ghost as the mormons understand it is the only way to the truth?

Right now, since we are separated from God's presence, yes.

[Lstinthwrld]

I agree. I am reminded of when Mitt Romney was questioned on a radio program about specific doctrines. So inappropriate, but what can you do. Anyway, he handled it well, but the radio host kept disbelieving his explanations, to which Romney said, "Do you trust that I know my religion better than you know my religion?" and the host said, "well, I don't know" which really meant that even when given straight from the horses' mouth information, many people still don't believe the truth. So, I don't know that you feel like things are being kept secret, but that you cannot accept the most basic of answers, and feel there must be something deeper or dare I say ominous that we just aren't telling you.

Come on! Where are you getting this from? You can find the answers to anything (especially religion) if look hard enough at research and available sources. Do you really think I haven't done that? One of my friends fathers was a member of you're quorum of 70 do you think I haven't asked him some of these questions. As a matter of fact he was the one who suggested I present the questions to the community at large.

Please enough with the conspiracy theories.

[Lstinthwrld]

I did smile at the end...:-)

I understand your thought. On the other hand, in many ways, LDS theology and religious practice are more in line with charismatic and pentecostalism, than with mainstream churches. Sensing the Spirit, gaining a testimony, prayers for healing, etc. Also, the believe in continuing revelation...you take it further than we do, but at least we accept the core idea.

Good point and you are right in those aspects. Thank you.

[bytebear]

Come on! Where are you getting this from? You can find the answers to anything (especially religion) if look hard enough at research and available sources. Do you really think I haven't done that? One of my friends fathers was a member of you're quorum of 70 do you think I haven't asked him some of these questions. As a matter of fact he was the one who suggested I present the questions to the community at large.

Please enough with the conspiracy theories.

I wasn't accusing you of such practices. I am just saying that is a common occurance, and as such, LDS folks tend to be more guarded with their explanations than they normally would. They stop explaining because they won't be believed anyway.

Have you asked God?

[Lstinthwrld]

Right now, since we are separated from God's presence, yes.

Don't you find this stance a little absolutist and indeed arrogant?

[Lstinthwrld]

Have you asked God?

Nope don't have his phone #

[Lstinthwrld]

I wasn't accusing you of such practices. I am just saying that is a common occurance, and as such, LDS folks tend to be more guarded with their explanations than they normally would. They stop explaining because they won't be believed anyway.

Have you asked God?

Thank you! Now go back and reread my posts and apply this statement of yours.

[bytebear]

Don't you find this stance a little absolutist and indeed arrogant?

Here's some scriptures that maybe will explain the concept of learning spiritual truths:

D&C 9

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

Moroni 10

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Luke 24

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

[bytebear]

Thank you! Now go back and reread my posts and apply this statement of yours.

But, you are assuming that all Mormons do the same thing. That we are told not to talk about certain doctrines. This is simply false, and that bishop, and your friend's mom were acting on their own, and not on any council from the church hierarchy.

[Lstinthwrld]

But, you are assuming that all Mormons do the same thing. That we are told not to talk about certain doctrines. This is simply false, and that bishop, and your friend's mom were acting on their own, and not on any council from the church hierarchy.

You are right and I understand this point about the bishop. But you are told not to talk about certain things.