Questions From A Potential Mormon

[Guest Mathias]

I have been considering joining the LDS church for a long time, but there have been a few questions that I can't find answers to. I'm sorry if they seem hostile or whatever, but all the 'softball' questions I had were answered quite easily on the www.mormon.org website. But as for questions I haven't found answers to there, I was wondering if some of you could help me out. (I tried calling this hotline or whatever, but the guy said he hadn't been in the church very long so he didn't know).

So, and I derived this from the website, in 1978 (I think it was) the Priesthood was extended to all worthy males in the church, right? I was wondering, prior to '78, who exactly had been excluded, and what rationale had kept them out, and what reasoning decided that they should be allowed in? Because the way I understand it, the basis of the religion is largely that Living Prophets give God's true word. So were the living prophets before '78 wrong, or did something happen whereupon The Lord decided to extend the priesthood?

Secondly, what is the Church's view point on romantic relationships between LDS members and non-mormons? Obviously they should respect eachother enough to respect one another's religious guidelines regarding sexual activity and family structure and whatnot, but should mormons also be wary of emotional attachment to those who don't belong to the church?

Bringing me to the third question, which is what the LDS believe about the fate of other Christians, and their levels of glory. The first time I considered becoming LDS, this was one of the big issues I had, but I was talking to one or two people only.

Any answers to these questions would be very much appreciated. For the most part I've gotten only answers from bitter ex-Mormons, which is something like reading the Augsburg confession to learn about Catholicism. I would be very grateful if any of you guys are knowledgable in any of the areas addressed by the questions.

~Mathias

[Jason]

Hi,

I have been considering joining the LDS church for a long time, but there have been a few questions that I can't find answers to. I'm sorry if they seem hostile or whatever, but all the 'softball' questions I had were answered quite easily on the www.mormon.org website. But as for questions I haven't found answers to there, I was wondering if some of you could help me out. (I tried calling this hotline or whatever, but the guy said he hadn't been in the church very long so he didn't know). 

It takes a few years to learn all about the LDS church. Give yourself some time.

So, and I derived this from the website, in 1978 (I think it was) the Priesthood was extended to all worthy males in the church, right? I was wondering, prior to '78, who exactly had been excluded, and what rationale had kept them out, and what reasoning decided that they should be allowed in? Because the way I understand it, the basis of the religion is largely that Living Prophets give God's true word. So were the living prophets before '78 wrong, or did something happen whereupon The Lord decided to extend the priesthood?

Basically, the church was a product of it's time. It just took a little longer for it to accept the civil rights movement. But you could say that after some minor outside pressure, the church finally woke up to the reality of the situation (that we're all so intermixed anyway, that there's really no such thing as a pure race) so they just allowed what was happening anyway.

Secondly, what is the Church's view point on romantic relationships between LDS members and non-mormons? Obviously they should respect eachother enough to respect one another's religious guidelines regarding sexual activity and family structure and whatnot, but should mormons also be wary of emotional attachment to those who don't belong to the church?

You'll probably get mixed statements on this one. Some LDS might argue against forming relationships with non-mormons. Others might encourage it.

Bringing me to the third question, which is what the LDS believe about the fate of other Christians, and their levels of glory. The first time I considered becoming LDS, this was one of the big issues I had, but I was talking to one or two people only.

Basically, that those who didn't reject the LDS version of the gospel will be given a "second chance" card in heaven. Meanwhile, Mormons are proxy baptized for as many dead people as they can find records for.

As for the untold billions of people that there are nor ever will be records for, they will hope for the millenium and angels to hand them the paperwork.

Any answers to these questions would be very much appreciated. For the most part I've gotten only answers from bitter ex-Mormons, which is something like reading the Augsburg confession to learn about Catholicism. I would be very grateful if any of you guys are knowledgable in any of the areas addressed by the questions.

~Mathias

I try hard not to be bitter.

Course, now that I can honestly say that Jesus probably never even existed, I really don't care which "christian" church leads the pack. B)

[shanstress70]

Wow Jason, I thought I was indecisive!

[Jason]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Aug 5 2005, 11:55 AM

Wow Jason, I thought I was indecisive!

Seriously, there come's a time when you've got to look inside of yourself and ask: "Do I really believe in this?"

I think most people hide from themselves, not wanting to face the awful truth.

[shanstress70]

I think about that often since leaving the LDS church, but I always push the thought out of my mind. I will have a lot happier life if I believe! Without faith, I'm afraid I'd be very depressed.

The way I look at it is, what will it hurt to believe, even if there is nothing else?

IMO, two of the biggest downfalls of organized religion is:

1) When Christians (or Muslims, or whatever) see themselves as superior over others; they 'know' the correct way and no one else does. No one KNOWS - we can only BELIEVE. BTW, God 'tells' Muslims they are correct, too.

2) When believers live their lives as if it is only temporary here on earth, so they don't make the best out of life and relationships. (One example of this may be grandparents going on a mission and not seeing their grandbabies grow up, but there are other non-LDS examples as well.) If there IS nothing else, you've missed out on a LOT if you've lived this way.

I have made the decision to do neither of these, but to have faith in God and an afterlife.

[Jason]

shanstress,

I couldn't agree with you more.

I too accept a higher power, and believe that life continues, but refuse to believe that God is partial and only reveals his word to certain people.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Jason+Aug 5 2005, 11:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jason @ Aug 5 2005, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Aug 5 2005, 11:55 AM

Wow Jason, I thought I was indecisive!

Seriously, there come's a time when you've got to look inside of yourself and ask: "Do I really believe in this?"

I think most people hide from themselves, not wanting to face the awful truth.

I have never questioned whether or not Jesus existed. I know from personal testimonies that He does. I suppose that that is the only way one can be positive. And once one has one like I did, there can be no questioning.

Questioning the church is a different story, of course.

[Jason]

Jenda,

Not to cast doubt, but are you sure it was a confirmation of "Jesus" and not of God generally speaking?

I think way too many people take their spiritual experiences, and use them as a crutch to prop up their current belief system.

[Jenda]

Which current belief system do you think I am propping up?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jason@Aug 5 2005, 08:12 PM

Jenda,

Not to cast doubt, but are you sure it was a confirmation of "Jesus" and not of God generally speaking?

And how to you know that your confirmation is from God and not from a god, like Zeus or Odin?

[Jason]

Originally posted by Jenda@Aug 5 2005, 10:44 PM

Which current belief system do you think I am propping up?

In this case, the belief that Jesus is god. Or a god, or whatever.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 6 2005, 04:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 6 2005, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jason@Aug 5 2005, 08:12 PM

Jenda,

Not to cast doubt, but are you sure it was a confirmation of "Jesus" and not of God generally speaking? 

And how to you know that your confirmation is from God and not from a god, like Zeus or Odin?

I cannot believe in any god other than that which is manifested by nature. The universe does not get jealous, or angry, or insist on some dogmatic assertion to be a part of it.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jason+Aug 6 2005, 08:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jason @ Aug 6 2005, 08:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Aug 6 2005, 04:12 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jason@Aug 5 2005, 08:12 PM

Jenda,

Not to cast doubt, but are you sure it was a confirmation of "Jesus" and not of God generally speaking? 

And how to you know that your confirmation is from God and not from a god, like Zeus or Odin?

I cannot believe in any god other than that which is manifested by nature. The universe does not get jealous, or angry, or insist on some dogmatic assertion to be a part of it.

What what God, prey tell, is manifest by nature and what are his characteristics?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Mathias@Aug 5 2005, 12:20 AM

I have been considering joining the LDS church for a long time, but there have been a few questions that I can't find answers to. I'm sorry if they seem hostile or whatever, but all the 'softball' questions I had were answered quite easily on the www.mormon.org website. But as for questions I haven't found answers to there, I was wondering if some of you could help me out. (I tried calling this hotline or whatever, but the guy said he hadn't been in the church very long so he didn't know).

So, and I derived this from the website, in 1978 (I think it was) the Priesthood was extended to all worthy males in the church, right? I was wondering, prior to '78, who exactly had been excluded, and what rationale had kept them out, and what reasoning decided that they should be allowed in? Because the way I understand it, the basis of the religion is largely that Living Prophets give God's true word. So were the living prophets before '78 wrong, or did something happen whereupon The Lord decided to extend the priesthood?

Secondly, what is the Church's view point on romantic relationships between LDS members and non-mormons? Obviously they should respect eachother enough to respect one another's religious guidelines regarding sexual activity and family structure and whatnot, but should mormons also be wary of emotional attachment to those who don't belong to the church?

Bringing me to the third question, which is what the LDS believe about the fate of other Christians, and their levels of glory. The first time I considered becoming LDS, this was one of the big issues I had, but I was talking to one or two people only.

Any answers to these questions would be very much appreciated. For the most part I've gotten only answers from bitter ex-Mormons, which is something like reading the Augsburg confession to learn about Catholicism. I would be very grateful if any of you guys are knowledgable in any of the areas addressed by the questions.

~Mathias

First off, I do not believe this post is honestly seeking LDS doctrine. These questions are typical of non-LDS that preach not the gospel of peace but a gospel of contention and lies. The answers are well know in LDS circles - I do not believe this post is honest. The questions come from communing with anti-LDS and not from seeking any LDS understanding.

To the first question: There is an order in all things in the Kingdom of G-d. As to the priesthood and those who officiate for G-d there is an order based on genealogy. In ancient Israel only the Levites held priesthood to officiate in the ordinances. Those that were not properly connected in genealogy were not to receive the Priesthood (See Ezra 2-62). A similar order of things was established in the last days. The Priesthood was not given to those who’s genealogy had not yet been reconciled. That has changed for the first time in history. In preparation for the coming of Jesus all worthy males are under covenant and commandment to uphold the priesthood. Prior to this time some were not under such covenant.

The second question is quite immature. It is never wise to seek romance with those that do not share your faith in G-d. If you cannot see eye to eye in sacred things - it is unwise to ask G-d to bless your marriage and force you to become one against your individual and separate wills.

As to the final question - The LDS view of the plan of salvation is the answer. It is the LDS gospel or Good news in Christ. I cannot believe you have considered becoming LDS and not have heard of this doctrine called the “plan of salvation”. Temples are built to “redeem the dead” of all peoples - including those that lived loyal to other faiths.

Please try to be honest. If you are seeking to become LDS - you should not have sought grapes of thorns or figs of thistles. This identifies you as a wolf in sheep’s clothing (see Matt 7:15-16).

The Traveler

[Snow]

Originally posted by Traveler+Aug 7 2005, 12:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Aug 7 2005, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Mathias@Aug 5 2005, 12:20 AM

I have been considering joining the LDS church for a long time, but there have been a few questions that I can't find answers to.  I'm sorry if they seem hostile or whatever, but all the 'softball' questions I had were answered quite easily on the www.mormon.org website.  But as for questions I haven't found answers to there, I was wondering if some of you could help me out.  (I tried calling this hotline or whatever, but the guy said he hadn't been in the church very long so he didn't know). 

So, and I derived this from the website, in 1978 (I think it was) the Priesthood was extended to all worthy males in the church, right?  I was wondering, prior to '78, who exactly had been excluded, and what rationale had kept them out, and what reasoning decided that they should be allowed in? Because the way I understand it, the basis of the religion is largely that Living Prophets give God's true word.  So were the living prophets before '78 wrong, or did something happen whereupon The Lord decided to extend the priesthood?

Secondly, what is the Church's view point on romantic relationships between LDS members and non-mormons?  Obviously they should respect eachother enough to respect one another's religious guidelines regarding sexual activity and family structure and whatnot, but should mormons also be wary of emotional attachment to those who don't belong to the church?

Bringing me to the third question, which is what the LDS believe about the fate of other Christians,  and their levels of glory.  The first time I considered becoming LDS, this was one of the big issues I had, but I was talking to one or two people only. 

Any answers to these questions would be very much appreciated.  For the most part I've gotten only answers from bitter ex-Mormons, which is something like reading the Augsburg confession to learn about Catholicism.  I would be very grateful if any of you guys are knowledgable in any of the areas addressed by the questions. 

~Mathias

First off, I do not believe this post is honestly seeking LDS doctrine. These questions are typical of non-LDS that preach not the gospel of peace but a gospel of contention and lies. The answers are well know in LDS circles - I do not believe this post is honest. The questions come from communing with anti-LDS and not from seeking any LDS understanding.

Try reserving judegement. The poster may be well-intentioned and at any rate hasn't said anything to the contrary.

To the first question:  There is an order in all things in the Kingdom of G-d.  As to the priesthood and those who officiate for G-d there is an order based on genealogy.  In ancient Israel only the Levites held priesthood to officiate in the ordinances.  Those that were not properly connected in genealogy were not to receive the Priesthood (See Ezra 2-62).  A similar order of things was established in the last days.  The Priesthood was not given to those who’s genealogy had not yet been reconciled.  That has changed for the first time in history.  In preparation for the coming of Jesus all worthy males are under covenant and commandment to uphold the priesthood.  Prior to this time some were not under such covenant.

That hardly answers the question Traveler. The point of the question is - WHY? And I can't give an answer other than Brigham Young said so. Can you give any reason other than that?

The second question is quite immature.  It is never wise to seek romance with those that do not share your faith in G-d.  If you cannot see eye to eye in sacred things - it is unwise to ask G-d to bless your marriage and force you to become one against your individual and separate wills.

Relax - it's just a question. I married my wife before she was a member. There aren't any absolutes.

As to the final question - The LDS view of the plan of salvation is the answer.  It is the LDS gospel or Good news in Christ.  I cannot believe you have considered becoming LDS and not have heard of this doctrine called the “plan of salvation”.  Temples are built to “redeem the dead” of all peoples - including those that lived loyal to other faiths.

But to the question - the answer is that those that don't make the requisite LDS covenants go to a kingdom other than the Celestial Kingdom, though all God's children will have an adequate change to make such covenants, either in this life or the life to come but one cannot postpone the need for repentenance and acceptance of the gospel; fair warning is given.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Mathias@ Aug 5 2005, 12:20 AM

…in 1978 (I think it was) the Priesthood was extended to all worthy males in the church, right? I was wondering, prior to '78, who exactly had been excluded, and what rationale had kept them out, and what reasoning decided that they should be allowed in? Because the way I understand it, the basis of the religion is largely that Living Prophets give God's true word. So were the living prophets before '78 wrong, or did something happen whereupon The Lord decided to extend the priesthood?

People with black skin were excluded, the rationale for the exclusion was a belief that it was the will of God that people with black skin be excluded from the priesthood, and the reasoning or rationale for their subsequent inclusion was a belief that it was the will of God that the exclusion should then be put to an end. So, Yes, according to Church authorities, it is the Lord who decided to extend the priesthood, just as He extended it to certain other people in the past who He had once excluded from holding the priesthood. But as you can imagine, there is still quite a bit of debate about this from those who do not know the truth.

Secondly, what is the Church's viewpoint on romantic relationships between LDS members and non-mormons? Obviously they should respect each other enough to respect one another's religious guidelines regarding sexual activity and family structure and whatnot, but should mormons also be wary of emotional attachment to those who don't belong to the church?

Put simply, Yes, “mormons” should be wary of emotional attachment to those who don’t belong to the church, if by “emotional attachment” you’re referring to the union of a man and woman in marriage, because it is not wise and in fact it is impossible for people to be united as one when they are not in agreement with each other. And above all, a marriage should be nothing less than the union of husband and wife as one.

And btw, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints generally prefer to be called “LDS” instead of “mormon”, but people who accept the Prophet Joseph Smith’s definition of “mormon” as meaning “more good” will generally not be offended even though they will often explain the difference.

Bringing me to the third question, which is what the LDS believe about the fate of other Christians, and their levels of glory. The first time I considered becoming LDS, this was one of the big issues I had, but I was talking to one or two people only.

The Church officially teaches that ALL “Christians” will be saved to the degree that they accept and conform to the commandments of God, so those who accept and conform to ALL the commandments of God will receive the highest degree of glory. To whom more has been given, more will be required, and more will be given to those who accept more of what has been given, but Church membership in and of itself avails no special blessings. Even the gift of the Holy Ghost is conditional upon receiving that blessing.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 8 2005, 09:11 AM

People with black skin were excluded, the rationale for the exclusion was a belief that it was the will of God that people with black skin be excluded from the priesthood, and the reasoning or rationale for their subsequent inclusion was a belief that it was the will of God that the exclusion should then be put to an end.  So, Yes, according to Church authorities, it is the Lord who decided to extend the priesthood, just as He extended it to certain other people in the past who He had once excluded from holding the priesthood.  But as you can imagine, there is still quite a bit of debate about this from those who do not know the truth.

Er...no.

It is not a question of the color of the skin. There were So. Pacific Islanders with skin much blacker than Africans. Rather, it was a question or lineage and Brigham Young was under the impression that African blacks were of a "cursed" lineage extending from Cain... a belief that was shared by many Protestant Church's in theory and in practice.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Snow@Aug 7 2005, 02:12 PM

Try reserving judegement. The poster may be well-intentioned and at any rate hasn't said anything to the contrary.

In the 7th Chapter of Matthew, Jesus is in the process of concluding his most celebrated sermon with a chilling warning. He warns against the effect of false and deceptive individuals as a primary threat to his followers. He tells us that these individuals will employ a sly tactic in that they will pretend to be sheep but their intent is not loyalty to the shepherd or to the safety of the fold. They are really wolves in sheep clothing with the intent to usurp the shepherd and destroy the fold. He then warns that the only way to really discern them is by their fruits and he gives a very specific example in the form of a question: “Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?”

When someone says they are studying LDS teachings and doctrines and asks questions that obviously are not from LDS teachings but inspired by anti-LDS teachings – know with certainty, as Christ prophesied, we have encountered someone attempting to gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. LDS grapes do not grow among anti-LDS thorns. What motivates this individual is not LDS teachings but the teachings of anti-LDS. Is this particular deception, as described by Christ, a new experience for you?

The Traveler

[Snow]

Originally posted by Traveler@Aug 9 2005, 10:09 AM

When someone says they are studying LDS teachings and doctrines and asks questions that obviously are not from LDS teachings but inspired by anti-LDS teachings – know with certainty, as Christ prophesied, we have encountered someone attempting to gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. LDS grapes do not grow among anti-LDS thorns. What motivates this individual is not LDS teachings but the teachings of anti-LDS. Is this particular deception, as described by Christ, a new experience for you?

The Traveler

Marsha used to ask the same questions. She got baptised. What's the harm in giving a small benefit of the doubt?

Traveler, if you read my posts, you know that I am like an attack dog when I think someone has ill-intentions, and I think that about a fair number of new posters over time. This one may just be playing it cool but what's the harm in finding out without running the risk of offending someone unnecessarily - like I said, Marsha got baptized.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Aug 9 2005, 10:09 AM

When someone says they are studying LDS teachings and doctrines and asks questions that obviously are not from LDS teachings but inspired by anti-LDS teachings – know with certainty, as Christ prophesied, we have encountered someone attempting to gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles.  LDS grapes do not grow among anti-LDS thorns.  What motivates this individual is not LDS teachings but the teachings of anti-LDS.  Is this particular deception, as described by Christ, a new experience for you?

The Traveler

Marsha used to ask the same questions. She got baptised. What's the harm in giving a small benefit of the doubt?

Traveler, if you read my posts, you know that I am like an attack dog when I think someone has ill-intentions, and I think that about a fair number of new posters over time. This one may just be playing it cool but what's the harm in finding out without running the risk of offending someone unnecessarily - like I said, Marsha got baptized.

A very good friend of mine was raised as anti-LDS. He has posted on this forum but not for some time. He too was baptized, but it was not until he was willing to drink pure water from the source. Once he experienced pure water he has not been able to deal with water that is not pure. The invitation I offer is to those that would drink pure water from the source. As Christ talked about the seed that would be planted he told of a seed that was chocked out because of weeds and thorns. The weeds and thorns are the teaching of the anti.

This is not about LDS. It is about all religions. Those that would learn of Islam should learn from those that honor that faith. The same applies to Catholics, Baptist, Jews or whatever. My father told me once that if I desired to succede I should seek knowledge from those that have succeded and not from those that have failed. Not because there is nothing to learn from failures but because those that have success understand something that those that failed never understood.

It apears to me that Jesus dealt with the same issue. It is about source. Those that pass judgement on any group or person based on their accusers have errored in justice. The point is simple. Do not misrepsent yourself. If someone has questions because of anti-LDS sources at least be honest about it. I may not be an expert on Marsha, but I do not recall that she ever misrepresented herself or the source of her questions.

The Traveler

The Traveler

[Ray]

Traveler,

Taking your point to the logical extreme seems to suggest that we [all people] should only seek information about God from God, which really is the only pure and living source of that knowledge, and while I am staunchly in favor of that approach as being the only real way to truly know the truth, which is why I try to talk about Faith so much, I still do not see that as the only way to acquire knowledge (or information) concerning God.

And I don’t see that as the only way to acquire information of any particular religion or anything else, either, even though we are all more likely to hear positive things about something from people who accept the information concerning whatever it is they’re talking about.

I think the main idea we need to keep in mind is that no matter where information comes from, we should all Ask God for wisdom and His assurance of the truth, and that until we do that, we will never know the truth.

Anyway, I appreciate your point about how we [all people] need to be careful about gathering “grapes of thorns or figs of thistles”, which is what someone is doing when they try to gather knowledge without Asking God for Faith. And I also think we need to be careful around people who go around teaching against the principle of Faith, which is doing Satan’s work of trying to choke out the fruit produced by Faith. But people who are simply asking for information to help them understand some other information they have heard may yet Ask God for wisdom and His assurance of the truth, even if for some reason they feel the need to Ask other people too.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 10 2005, 08:58 AM

Traveler,

Taking your point to the logical extreme seems to suggest that we [all people] should only seek information about God from God, which really is the only pure and living source of that knowledge, and while I am staunchly in favor of that approach as being the only real way to truly know the truth, which is why I try to talk about Faith so much, I still do not see that as the only way to acquire knowledge (or information) concerning God.

And I don’t see that as the only way to acquire information of any particular religion or anything else, either, even though we are all more likely to hear positive things about something from people who accept the information concerning whatever it is they’re talking about.

I think the main idea we need to keep in mind is that no matter where information comes from, we should all Ask God for wisdom and His assurance of the truth, and that until we do that, we will never know the truth.

Anyway, I truly do appreciate your point about how we shouldn’t go around trying to gather “grapes of thorns or figs of thistles”, which is what someone is doing when they try to gather knowledge without Asking God for Faith. And further, someone who goes so far as to teach against the principle of Faith is someone who is doing the work of Satan, trying to chock out the fruit produced by Faith. But someone who is simply asking for information to help them understand some other information they have heard may yet Ask God for wisdom and His assurance of the truth, even if for some reason they feel the need to Ask other people too.

Ray: You may not understand my post. I do not contend that someone not consider multiple sources. What I do contend is that all consider their sources. If someone is relying on anti-LDS or anti anything they should be clear what they are involved with and honestly portray their sources. The problem is not so much what a person is asking as much as what they present themself as. When someone says they are considering LDS doctrines then ask questions based on anti-LDS sources that should be a RED flag. This is not according to my opinion but based on teachings of Christ. He advises that such types be avoided.

If someone has a better interpretation of "gathering grapes of thorns or figs of thistles" I would be willing to entertain their thoughts but I think it is quite clear.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler+Aug 10 2005, 11:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Aug 10 2005, 11:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 10 2005, 08:58 AM

Traveler,

Taking your point to the logical extreme seems to suggest that we [all people] should only seek information about God from God, which really is the only pure and living source of that knowledge, and while I am staunchly in favor of that approach as being the only real way to truly know the truth, which is why I try to talk about Faith so much, I still do not see that as the only way to acquire knowledge (or information) concerning God.

And I don’t see that as the only way to acquire information of any particular religion or anything else, either, even though we are all more likely to hear positive things about something from people who accept the information concerning whatever it is they’re talking about.

I think the main idea we need to keep in mind is that no matter where information comes from, we should all Ask God for wisdom and His assurance of the truth, and that until we do that, we will never know the truth.

Anyway, I truly do appreciate your point about how we shouldn’t go around trying to gather “grapes of thorns or figs of thistles”, which is what someone is doing when they try to gather knowledge without Asking God for Faith.   And further, someone who goes so far as to teach against the principle of Faith is someone who is doing the work of Satan, trying to chock out the fruit produced by Faith.  But someone who is simply asking for information to help them understand some other information they have heard may yet Ask God for wisdom and His assurance of the truth, even if for some reason they feel the need to Ask other people too.

Ray: You may not understand my post. I do not contend that someone not consider multiple sources. What I do contend is that all consider their sources. If someone is relying on anti-LDS or anti anything they should be clear what they are involved with and honestly portray their sources. The problem is not so much what a person is asking as much as what they present themself as. When someone says they are considering LDS doctrines then ask questions based on anti-LDS sources that should be a RED flag. This is not according to my opinion but based on teachings of Christ. He advises that such types be avoided.

If someone has a better interpretation of "gathering grapes of thorns or figs of thistles" I would be willing to entertain their thoughts but I think it is quite clear.

The Traveler

I’m just saying that I see the possibility that Matthias is someone who is honestly considering joining the church, that he has heard some information which is causing him some concerns, and that he is now Asking questions on an LDS website to see what some LDS have to say.

Of course, Matthias could search the official Church website at www.lds.org for information, or he could go to a Deseret bookstore to find some books containing the answers to his questions, but maybe Matthias doesn’t know about those sources of information, or how to use them, and he simply came here after doing a simple search on the web.

I know it’s hard to believe, but stranger things have happened.

For instance, I recently accepted a pamphlet about Jesus from someone on the street on the way to work and after sending an email to the website that was listed on the back of that pamphlet, to give them some more information concerning what I know about Jesus, it turned out that the person on the other end didn’t have a clue about what “Mormons” really believe, even though this person lives in Missouri in these United States of America. Can you believe that? From all the signs I got from his questions, and the way he responded to my answers, I think this person was truly ready to know more, and he said he would write me back in a few weeks after reading the Book of Mormon. And this after we had exchanged emails a few times to answer some of his concerns and questions.

So in other words, don’t be so quick to jump to the conclusion that people who ask questions based on information they obtained from anti-sources are anti-people, because there are still people on Earth who are only kept from the truth because they don’t know where to find it.

[Ray]

Btw, the answer to Jesus' question illustrates that men who gather fruit of [or from] thorns and thistles have corrupt or damaged goods (because good fruit can only come from a tree where the fruit doesn't get damaged or corrupted by its environment), and rather than try to gather fruit from a bad tree, someone who Seeks to gather good fruit should Seek it from a good tree; and the good husbandman will cut down a bad tree and burn it (to get some use out of it).

And though many who Seek good fruit would gladly gather it by Asking someone who has some and wants to give it away, if they know that someone, there are some people in this world who just don't know how to go about getting good fruit.

I now recommend reading Matthew chapter 7 to get the full context, starting with how we should be careful when judging other people.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Traveler@Aug 10 2005, 05:50 AM

This is not about LDS. It is about all religions. Those that would learn of Islam should learn from those that honor that faith. The same applies to Catholics, Baptist, Jews or whatever.

Yeah - maybe - partly.

Do you think the best source to learn about Scientology is from Tom Cruise and Courtney Love?