So Who Are You Supposed To Listen To?

[Ray]

Okay, one more response before I stop responding for a while, because I simply can’t resist responding to this:

I TESTIFY TO YOU IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER THAT JESUS THE CHRIST DID EXIST UPON THIS EARTH, AND BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD!

WILL YOU RECEIVE IT!!!???

ummm........no.

Some people think [you] or should believe what [they] tell you …

AND, some people think that although there are many people who think one way, and many other people who think another way, you should believe what somebody says when they say they know the truth…

AND, some people think that because there are so many people who say [this], and so many people who say [that], there is no way for anybody to know the truth….

AND, some people think that what some people say is just as true as what other people say, with the idea that there is no absolute truth for everybody…

WELL…

I say that despite what some people say, and despite how what some people say conflicts with what some other people say, there is a way for all of us to know what is and will forever be true…

… but that way isn’t by believing what or [they] tell you…

… and it isn’t by believing what [you] think is most likely to be true.

I say that the only way for any of us to know the truth is by Asking God for wisdom and His assurance to help us know or recognize the truth when we Find it…

AND, I say that all of us will Find it if we sincerely Seek the truth while Asking God to help us Find it….

AND, I say all of us will know when we have Found the truth because God will have assured us that we know the truth…despite what other people may have to say about it.

And I say this in the name of Jesus Christ (not the name of the Father)… Amen.

[Jason]

Ray,

Im pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be happy knowing you were putting words in his mouth. So I would recommend you stop speaking "in the name of" Jesus.

Second, I believe that God the Creator is leading me towards truth. And that means that as I mozy along this path of life, I'll continue to discover why dogmatic religions are wrong and emotionally abusive.

Finally, I hope you have a nice day.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Aug 15 2005, 10:45 AM

Ray,

Im pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be happy knowing you were putting words in his mouth.  So I would recommend you stop speaking "in the name of" Jesus. 

Second, I believe that God the Creator is leading me towards truth.  And that means that as I mozy along this path of life, I'll continue to discover why dogmatic religions are wrong and emotionally abusive. 

Finally, I hope you have a nice day.

Okay, one more thing to those who don’t know….

To speak “in the name of Jesus Christ” signifies that a person is speaking by the authority that Jesus Christ has given them, and since all people can only be saved by taking upon themselves the name of Christ, or by being a so-called “Christ-ian”, we should all seek to rightfully take upon ourselves the name of Christ… and only rightfully because not everyone who calls him Lord will be saved.

Bye now.

[Lindy]

First~ Great post Ray! I really liked that one

Second~ Jason-I really hope you find what you are looking for

Third~ I'm going to be late for work, so I gotta jet! You BOTH have a great day!

[StrawberryFields]

Ray's Ouote

"I say that the only way for any of us to know the truth is by Asking God for wisdom to help us know the truth when we Find it…"

Edited because quote didn't come through the first time.

I don't usually read thing which have a messed up title (which this doesn't) so I don't know much of what you are talking about here so I took it out of your quote. I do however believe the part I left in your quote.

It is so difficult to try to teach someone or in some cases remind people what is true with out the spirit. When people start an argument and leave the discussion behind, teaching with the spirit also leaves. An argument occurs when one person resorts to insulting another personally or what they believe.

[Traveler]

There is an old saying - "What you do thunders so loud in my ears I cannot hear a word you are saying."

The ancient word for saying or claiming to believe one thing but doing something else is hypocrisy. Jesus called many of the religious leaders of his day hypocrites because they taught ideals that they would not live.

We have our hypocrites in our day. They say Jesus is merciful and kind, but in reality they think Jesus is only merciful and kind to them. They think he will damn anyone that does not believe correct doctrine. Yet Jesus said if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven by him. Jesus also said if you are only merciful and kind to your friends you are no better than robbers and thieves – that you should love your enemies and do good to those that curse you. But Jesus would not do what he asks us to do? Is Jesus a hypocrite?

Gandhi said he is the example of what he believes –Jesus is as well. If you are not an example as Jesus is an example you have not taken upon yourself his name – the name you have taken upon yourself is that of an imposter.

My opinion – and I am always looking for someone willing to be an example.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Traveler,

Your post is interesting and you make some good points, but I think we’re talking about 2 different things. I was talking about how we need Faith or an assurance from God to be able to know the truth, and you seem to be talking about how we need to set a good example so other people might learn that we are willing to practice what we preach.

And frankly, I prefer to talk about how we should put our trust in God and seek answers from Him, instead of talking about how we should be good examples so other people might be more willing to learn from us… because I don’t want people to put their trust in me or you or anybody else but God.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 16 2005, 08:46 AM

Traveler,

Your post is interesting and you make some good points, but I think we’re talking about 2 different things.  I was talking about how we need Faith or an assurance from God to be able to know the truth, and you seem to be talking about how we need to set a good example so other people might learn that we are willing to practice what we preach.

And frankly, I prefer to talk about how we should put our trust in God and seek answers from Him, instead of talking about how we should be good examples so other people might be more willing to learn from us… because I don’t want people to put their trust in me or you or anybody else but God.

Then why post?

My father, in talking about investing, (he did very well) use to say that the point is to get other people to invest their own money. When they do they catch on very quickly. It is not a matter of how to invest it is a matter of investing. I think the point is to become invested. Someone may think they trust in G-d but there is a connection between G-d and our fellow men. Jesus said if you cannot love those you have seen how can you love G-d who is unseen?

Let me put it this way - if you cannot identify that which is divine among man why do you think you can identify that which is divine?

The Traveler

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler@ Aug 16 2005, 12:29 PM

Then why post?

My father, in talking about investing, (he did very well) use to say that the point is to get other people to invest their own money. When they do they catch on very quickly. It is not a matter of how to invest it is a matter of investing. I think the point is to become invested. Someone may think they trust in G-d but there is a connection between G-d and our fellow men. Jesus said if you cannot love those you have seen how can you love G-d who is unseen?

Heh, I think I “post” for the same reasons that all the prophets have “preached” the gospel… because I know the joy (or at least some of the joy) that comes from knowing God and the blessings He desires to share with all of us, and I want to share “this” with others.

Do you suppose that all the prophets “preached” or are now “preaching” because they wanted or want everyone to follow [them]?

Let me put it this way - if you cannot identify that which is divine among man why do you think you can identify that which is divine?

I think I can identify that which is divine among man, I simply do not preach about man...at least not to the point of suggesting that a man should be worshipped.

Do you think I would better serve God and my fellow man by suggesting that other people seek wisdom or approval or an assurance of truth from President Hinckley?...or Joseph Smith??... or any other prophet of God???

And btw, your point about investing is well taken, but there is only One being which can make us truly rich.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray+Aug 16 2005, 12:47 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Traveler@ Aug 16 2005, 12:29 PM

Then why post?

My father, in talking about investing, (he did very well) use to say that the point is to get other people to invest their own money. When they do they catch on very quickly. It is not a matter of how to invest it is a matter of investing. I think the point is to become invested. Someone may think they trust in G-d but there is a connection between G-d and our fellow men. Jesus said if you cannot love those you have seen how can you love G-d who is unseen?

Heh, I think I “post” for the same reasons that all the prophets have “preached” the gospel… because I know the joy (or at least some of the joy) that comes from knowing God and the blessings He desires to share with all of us, and I want to share “this” with others.

Do you suppose that all the prophets “preached” or are now “preaching” because they wanted or want everyone to follow them?

Let me put it this way - if you cannot identify that which is divine among man why do you think you can identify that which is divine?

I think I can identify that which is divine among man, I simply do not preach about man...at least not to the point of suggesting that a man should be worshipped.

Do you think I would better serve God and my fellow man by suggesting that other people seek wisdom or approval or an assurance of truth from President Hinckley?...or Joseph Smith??... or any other prophet of God???

And btw, your point about investing is well taken, but there is only One being which can make us truly rich.

I offer you 5 points (testable) of G-d dealing with man:

1. G-d will not do anything for you that you can do for yourself.

2. G-d will do for you what you cannot do for yourself.

3. G-d will not do anything for you that results in your eternal detriment.

4. G-d will do for you that which is of eternal benefit for you.

5. G-d will not do anything for you without your concurrence and approval.

You will note that the variable in these points is you (me or us) and that the constant is G-d. In short my friend I think you are wasting your time (as well as everybody else’s) suggesting that G-d will change what he is doing for them – if they will just ask. What I suggest is that what is really required to obtain anything from G-d is a change in the individual.

How does an individual change? Quite simple. They must stop doing something (on a regular basis) that they have always done before and start doing something (on a regular basis) they have not done before.

What I am trying to get across is the process of seeking and finding, asking and receiving, knocking and having a door opened. I think the main difference in our point of view is the concept of process that assumes you are the only variable that needs change. I may have misunderstood you but you appear to me to be suggesting that G-d changes what he is doing if we make a big enough fuss about it. That has not been my experience but if it works for you that is fine – just letting you know it has not worked for me – if I’m not willing to walk a mile with someone’s burden I will never learn what happens when I walk a mile carrying someone else’s burden. I can call (trust and rely) on G-d for years and years and never learn a thing about carrying burdens till I change me and actually do it.

The Traveler

[Ray]

I may have misunderstood you but you appear to me to be suggesting that G-d changes what he is doing if we make a big enough fuss about it.

I’m not sure where you got this idea, and hopefully I will clear it up by saying that we need to Ask God for His help to Receive, the truth for instance, applying all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength to our quest, because God will not force us to believe something and He will not even inspire us to believe something if we do not Seek His help and Ask for His guidance.

And without His help, or inspiration, there are some things we will simply never know.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 16 2005, 05:12 PM

And without His help, or inspiration, there are some things we will simply never know.

Please do not think I am trying to give you a bad time. I just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to say.

When you say there are some things we will not understand without his help; what are you implying? My point is that we already have his help - everybody does. If there is something we do not know it is not because he is not allready helping us. It is because we are not paying attention and helping ourself to what he willing gives to everybody.

Preaching the Gosple of Jesus Christ is not so much about telling as it is about doing. Don't tell about being merciful and kind demonstrate mercy and kindness. Don't tell about love demonstrate love.

Sometimes I think devout people are like a bunch of geese that waddle through the mud every week to get to church to talk about flying and then waddle back home through the mud.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler@ Aug 16 2005, 05:28 PM

Please do not think I am trying to give you a bad time. I just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to say.

When you say there are some things we will not understand without his help; what are you implying? My point is that we already have his help - everybody does. If there is something we do not know it is not because he is not allready helping us. It is because we are not paying attention and helping ourself to what he willing gives to everybody.

Sorry, I suppose that was a little unclear, so I will try to phrase things better.

First, when I say there are some things we will never understand without God’s help, I mean to say that the mind of man alone is not capable of knowing or understanding the things of God, so to know the things of God we must have His help. Or in other words, without the inspiration of God to guide our thoughts, we will always misunderstand Him and what He has done or is willing to do for us.

Secondly, everybody does not have the help of God, because everybody does not Ask for the help of God, and God will not offer His help to those who don’t Ask for His help. But that doesn’t mean that God’s help is not available, or God does not want to help us. It simply means that we must Ask for His help. And btw, although there are formal procedures for submitting our requests for His help, God will still help us when we informally Ask for His help until He can teach why it is important for us to Ask Him properly.

And thirdly, simply Asking for His help is not enough, because if we are not sincere in our requests, or if we have already made up our minds about what we are going to think or do, He won’t bother to help us because He will know that we really don’t want His help. So along with Asking, we must do everything we can on our own to show that we really do want to follow God’s counsel.

Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not so much about telling as it is about doing. Don't tell about being merciful and kind, demonstrate mercy and kindness. Don't tell about love, demonstrate love.

“Preaching” the gospel is simply about “sharing” or “giving” information, but it is true that the greatest sermon we preach is the one we tell with our lives. And while words alone are seldom adequate to share the true thoughts and intents of our hearts, we do need to say some things with words so that other people might know why or how we do what we do.

Sometimes I think devout people are like a bunch of geese that waddle through the mud every week to get to church to talk about flying and then waddle back home through the mud.

I think you’re either describing hypocrites or people who talk about the "ideal" way to be while not being able to live up to those ideals. Being "devout" simply means you are sincerely committed to what you saying or doing, and devout or not, it is possible to know the truth without being willing or able to live up to it.

For instance, a LDS knows he is to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, and even though he can't attain that ideal right now, he should still try to attain that ideal and he should also let his other brothers and sisters know why or how he can do that.

[Lindy]

Trav~ something you said in your last post "Sometimes I think devout people are like a bunch of geese that waddle through the mud every week to get to church to talk about flying and then waddle back home through the mud.

It just reminded me of something I said to a friend last week "People are like pigs, they will walk over the grass to get to the mud." Meaning there are so many who will trample over the good things to get to the dirt. At that time I was talking about the many times we overlook the good things we see, read, or think about - because it's more fun and less work on our part if we ignore the good things we have in front of us, because our minds are focused on the mud we can have fun in.

I guess now, my point is...so many of us have lost our focus, we get caught up in our little routines of plodding thru life, that we sometimes miss that great idea of flying... a feat that we know we are capable of.

[Ray]

Originally posted by lindy9556@ Aug 17 2005, 09:35 AM

..,.we sometimes miss that great idea of flying... a feat that we know we are capable of.

good point…capable of…and even though very few of us actually live up to what we are capable of.…whether good or bad….we are all becoming more one way than the other.

[Laureltree]

There is only one way any of us can know the truth.. and here it is

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful• the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder• it in your hearts•.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true•; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real• intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth• of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know• the truth• of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according• to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

[Lindy]

Great Post LT!

I am going to cut and paste a pm I sent to someone who asked about that age old question...."would you leave....if"

"I looked for the LDS church teachings for too long in this life...I cannot even think of anything wrong being associated with it. So yes, because of what I believe, and how I believe, I would stay put.

It's like having someone tell you that they can prove the non-existance of God..... I don't care about the proof that anyone would have.... I only know what I know is true for me. I have shades of grey in my life....believe me....but not when it comes to the basic truth as I know it. ".......Lindy

[Guest Member_Deleted]

This from Jason... and forgive me for answering a post I read from page 1...

Ray,

Im pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be happy knowing you were putting words in his mouth. So I would recommend you stop speaking "in the name of" Jesus.

Second, I believe that God the Creator is leading me towards truth. And that means that as I mozy along this path of life, I'll continue to discover why dogmatic religions are wrong and emotionally abusive.

Finally, I hope you have a nice day.

How could Ray be putting words into Jesus' mouth, when all he did was quote principles of Christ's teachings from scriptures which are supposed to be from Christ?

Just wondering.